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I do have to give you some credit, logical7. At least you're sticking around, it seems like the others have left.
I said earlier, and I still believe, that in one sense this thread has harmed me. I have much more knowledge than I did at the start, which is a good thing. But I also am more worried about Islam and Muslims in the world, I'm going to have to watch myself for signs of pre-judging and distrust of entire groups, but it will be harder now.
Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes
Here is an Islamic scholar from the US talking about renovating Islam and the difference of understanding between West and Islam, his name is Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and you may start from 15min mark of the video till his part is done.
Its not directly debunking the documentry but it will give you a better understanding.
I'l post other videos to debunk the video in OP too.
The Islamic system obligates in terms of the subjects whose affairs are obligatory to be taken care of, that it provides complete caretaking to everyone who permanently resides in Daar ul-Islaam, submits to the systems of the state and holds the citizenship of the state. The caretaking of the affairs is based upon the following fundamental bases:
Shari'ah law upon ALL CITIZENS, Muslim or not.
- Everyone who carries the citizenship of the state enjoys the rights and is bound by the Shari'ah obligations.
- It is not allowed for the state to distinguish between the individuals from amongst the subjects in terms of ruling, judiciary and caretaking of general affairs etc.. Indeed it is obligatory for the state to look at all of its subjects from a the same single viewpoint regardless of their race, religion or colour etc..
- The State implements the Islamic Shari'ah upon all of those who carry the Islamic citizenship whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims in the following manner:
a) All of the Islamic rules are applied upon the Muslims without exception.
They are? Oh. Okay.....
b) Non-Muslims and what they believe and worship are left as they are within the general system.
d) Non-Muslims are treated in regards to the matters of foodstuffs and clothing in accordance to the religions within that which the Shari'ah rules have permitted.
f) The states implements the rest of the Shari'ah rules and all remaining Islamic Shari'ah matters in regards to the Mu'aamalaat (transactions), punishments, testimonies, ruling and economic systems amongst others upon everyone.
The implementation of these matters is the same in regards to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Similarly they are implemented upon those who have covenants (Mu'aahid) and those who have been granted security (Musta'min) in addition to all those who are under the authority of Islaam just as they are implemented upon the subjects of the state. This applies to all except for the ambassadors, messengers and those who are similar to them as they hold diplomatic immunity.
- Accounting the rulers by the Muslims is a right from amongst their rights and it is a collective obligation that must be performed by them. Non-Muslims have the right to raise complaints in relation to the oppression of the ruler against them or if he does not implement the Islamic rules correctly upon them.
So, socialized education and health care - but UNDER ISLAMIC RULE. Potential for indoctrination in education much?
- It is obligatory to completely guarantee the satisfaction of the basic needs of all the individuals of the state, individual by individual. And to guarantee the ability of every individual to satisfy his needs above the basic needs to the highest possible level in addition to the state guaranteeing to find work for everyone of its citizens, Muslim or non-Muslim.
It also guarantees spending upon the one who does not possess money, work or those upon whom it is obligatory to spend upon him. It will also take responsibility for the elderly and those who are disabled regardless of their religion or school of thought. The state active works to circulate the wealth amongst the subjects and to prevent it from being circulated amongst a specific group alone.
The state also provides education to every individual in accordance to the level required for the person to engage in the realities of life in two levels of education: Primary and Secondary.
It is obligatory to provide these to everyone without charge. It also opens the area of higher education up to all free of charge in accordance to the best of its capabilities in addition to providing all health and medical services to everyone without exception or charge.
No non-Muslims to participate in rebellions. And if they CHOOSE to participate n fighting, they may not do so with their own banner or separate leadership. So, it's voluntary, but the non-Muslims have to fight FOR THE MUSLIM CAUSE (ISLAM and SHARIAH).
It is permitted for non-Muslim subjects of the state to fight the enemy alongside the Muslims but they are not compelled to do so. It is a condition that their fighting takes place under the banner of the Muslims and that they do not have their own specific banner or separate leadership. And if the fighting is against Muslims like the Buhgaat (those rebelling against the authority) then in this case it is not permitted for there to be amongst the ranks of the army any non-Muslims.
He talked about many things, but in particular I was intrigued by his call for "renovating" the Qu'ran...... and when I have suggested that, you said "No Muslim will ever agree to that!"
4.I will never deny Yeshua/Jesus as the Messiah!
1.I will never burn or desecrate their
2.I will be kind and courteous to their
3.I will pray for their people,especially
for their children.
Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7
Also, I would like your comments regarding the website that I presented and Charles looked at as well.
It's quite disturbing to me. Can you please address it?
Thanks in advance.
Sorry for losing my cool over the last week. I'm frustrated....and I'm sure you are, too.
Yes Islam has a dess code, dietary restrictions etc and muslims follow it and this could be a point of disagreement and worry for western people but the minorities living in muslim countries are already used to it.
he did not call for "renovating" the Qur'an.
He agreed that Islam needs renovation of the parts that have been falling apart or got corrupted over time.
You asked for changing Qur'an and remove verses that are bad/violent according to western opinion and i responded to the ridiculousness of the suggestion.
Being "already used to it" doesn't make it comfortable or right or fair or tolerant.
Well, since your Hadiths are the interpretations that are used to form policy, then get rid of the psychotic.
loathsome Hadiths! Condemn the ones
that call for blood, slavery, rape,
subjugation of women, conquest, and
As for the video, it is an advertisement
for a seminar. Have you signed up for
it? Or did you attend?
Your belief that some hadiths call for the above itself reveal that you are demanding solutions without understanding the problems.
A simple example would be, prophet Muhammad pbuh said, "i was command to struggle till people accept One God.."(i am paraphrasing)
and if someone says no its, "i was commanded to FIGHT till people accept One God.."
who is at fault? The Hadith or the translator? An anti-islamic site would sure translate it as "Fight/war"
Originally posted by FromMyColdDeadBrain
The West need to be very weary about the lying moslems' and their 'hudna'. All they need are the numbers and their 1400-year struggle to infect the world with their barbaric cancer will arc up again.edit on 20-6-2013 by FromMyColdDeadBrain because: (no reason given)