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Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

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posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 05:33 PM
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Guys? Entirely off-topic (sort of).

I know it's easy to get frustrated on this topic. Let me ask a favor. Consider stopping over here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I laughed so hard I cried. Did wonders for my spirit. Of course I am a little twisted, but I really needed the break.
edit on 13-6-2013 by charles1952 because: fixed link




posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 05:35 PM
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I have yet to see Someone of the muslim faith Prove to me it was not edited. There are the oldest know qu rans that look totally different than the modern versions. The older ones lack the puntuations and dots over passages and words. the newer ones have them. Obvious proof it was not perfect but good luck getting one to admit it.



posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by yuppa
I have yet to see Someone of the muslim faith Prove to me it was not edited. There are the oldest know qu rans that look totally different than the modern versions. The older ones lack the puntuations and dots over passages and words. the newer ones have them. Obvious proof it was not perfect but good luck getting one to admit it.


Thats very simple.

The classical arabic does not have dots,marks etc.
The arabs instinctively know how to pronounce a word without the help of those dots and punctuations etc.
Someone who knows arabic grammar can also do that but non-arabs like me wouldn't have a clue how to read it without those dots and marks helping me.

Qur'an by definition is a recital, the written copy is aimed at making the right sounds.

The addition of those dots etc does not mean its edited. The words when recited will make the same sound as the oldest copies recited by an arabic expert.



posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 





Gospel of Matthew - apostle. Gospel of Mark - One of the 72 Disciples Gospel of Luke - got much of his info from Mary, Jesus Mother. Gospel of John - the Beloved Disciple Epistles of Peter - Chief Apostle. Epistles of James and John - Apostles Epistles of Jude - brother of James

its a shame that there is no Gospel of Jesus!
Even if it was, how would you know it was REALLY written by Jesus pbuh and/or not "edited" by later scribes etc?
I read a book named "misquoting Jesus"
here is a tiny video of the author who is a Bible scholar, lets see what he has to say(you may fast forward it to almost half the video till he comes to speak)


edit on 13-6-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by yuppa
I have yet to see Someone of the muslim faith Prove to me it was not edited. There are the oldest know qu rans that look totally different than the modern versions. The older ones lack the puntuations and dots over passages and words. the newer ones have them. Obvious proof it was not perfect but good luck getting one to admit it.


Thats very simple.

The classical arabic does not have dots,marks etc.
The arabs instinctively know how to pronounce a word without the help of those dots and punctuations etc.
Someone who knows arabic grammar can also do that but non-arabs like me wouldn't have a clue how to read it without those dots and marks helping me.

Qur'an by definition is a recital, the written copy is aimed at making the right sounds.

The addition of those dots etc does not mean its edited. The words when recited will make the same sound as the oldest copies recited by an arabic expert.


Ah but it is still editing is it not? If it was perfect it did not need those marks. God would have made it already that way if he had meant it to be that way since it was perfect right?



posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 09:10 PM
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Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by yuppa
I have yet to see Someone of the muslim faith Prove to me it was not edited. There are the oldest know qu rans that look totally different than the modern versions. The older ones lack the puntuations and dots over passages and words. the newer ones have them. Obvious proof it was not perfect but good luck getting one to admit it.


Thats very simple.

The classical arabic does not have dots,marks etc.
The arabs instinctively know how to pronounce a word without the help of those dots and punctuations etc.
Someone who knows arabic grammar can also do that but non-arabs like me wouldn't have a clue how to read it without those dots and marks helping me.

Qur'an by definition is a recital, the written copy is aimed at making the right sounds.

The addition of those dots etc does not mean its edited. The words when recited will make the same sound as the oldest copies recited by an arabic expert.


Ah but it is still editing is it not? If it was perfect it did not need those marks. God would have made it already that way if he had meant it to be that way since it was perfect right?

Qur'an is "audio" for ears!!
Qur'an is not a "book" that came down written on heavenly pages with heavenly ink!
The book is just a representation of the oral Qur'an.
Its like someone making a transcript of a speech, will you debate that the speech is edited if british english is used in one and american english in another script?



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 05:59 AM
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Originally posted by logical7
its a shame that there is no Gospel of Jesus!

Again .... these are people who were his best friends, who studied from him, who walked with him and listened to his lessons for three years .. people who died for him ...

Gospel of Matthew - apostle. Gospel of Mark - One of the 72 Disciples Gospel of Luke - got much of his info from Mary, Jesus Mother. Gospel of John - the Beloved Disciple Epistles of Peter - Chief Apostle. Epistles of James and John - Apostles Epistles of Jude - brother of James

What Jesus said and did is there. Even down to what Jesus mother was thinking about when she conceived Him and when she found him in the temple (Gospel of Luke). It's all there.

Unlike the Qu'ran that just made up a bunch of stories 600+ years later, the gospels are first hand accounts and even interviews with Jesus mother Mary (St. Luke). We even know what she was thinking and feeling. We even know what the Angel of the Lord said to her and we even know what the Angel of the Lord said to Jesus Step Father (Joseph) in his dreams. All information given from Mary to St. Luke for the gospels.

The fiction in the Qu'ran can't compare. Not even close ...



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 06:38 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


Muslims believe that Islam will reach every place and become the dominant religion but it will by its values and teachings not by force.

The ones YOU claim are "real Muslims." Not ALL of them.


There are people with wishful thinking that want Islam to "take over the world" but its just their ego talking while they think that they are righteous. You will find that type in many religions so they are not exclusive to islam.

That is true.

How many? I don't know, but they don't have any clout.

No? No clout?...Okay, let's go with "they don't have any clout."
They have BOMBS and GUNS and AXES and ACID and like to RAPE women and/or hide behind them, or hide behind children, and hack up their sisters' boyfriends, and blow innocent people's legs off. Among other things.


Many muslims who feel victimised and oppressed think that way to feel better and thats about it, they are harmless and themselves suffering and such ideas give them a bit comfort.
What about the ones who obviously are NOT "harmless"? The ones who are active and violent and taking "revenge" for how they've been treated (whether perceived or real)?

The Tsarnaev brothers were traumatized as little kids by the brutal Chechnyan mess - and then decided to "take revenge" on Americans, who had GIVEN THEM REFUGE. In fact, that was the FIRST thought that went through my mind that day in Boston...."this is revenge." Not "thanks for taking us in." No. "We are going to blow some people's legs off and kill a few while we're at it."

The guy in London who butchered a soldier in broad daylight...what about him? He is being given refuge in a Western country, and then hacks to death a citizen of that country who did NOTHING to provoke him. What is HIS deal? How could that soldier, or ANYONE ON THE STREET have determined he was anything BUT a "harmless Muslim refugee."

They are the PROBLEM with us understanding and tolerating Islam.

Try again.
WHERE ARE THEY? How many of them are there? How do I know which ones to trust? We've already established that simply asking, "but are you a 'real' Muslim?" is not going to work for us.

That question is one I've repeated in post after post, and have YET to receive an answer. They DO exist, and I want to know - I NEED to know - how to tell the difference. Just like there are supposedly "intelligence teams" in Turkey now "vetting" the Syrian rebels to see if they are "Real Western-supporting rebels against Assad" or "Terrorists" before they are going to "give them guns". I am an American trying to learn how to "vet" Muslims - that is, TELL THE DIFFERENCE accurately, so I know who I can trust.

Dammit!!! ANSWER THE QUESTION, PLEASE!!!!

edit on 14-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 06:55 AM
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Continued thoughts from post above -

I have explained to you (and other people) in various threads how to tell which "Christians" are dangerous. I have provided links to sites that identify them for you or anyone else.

Those sites are claimed by dangerous "I'm a REAL Christian" nutjobs to be "lies and propaganda" just like you are claiming the Jihadi watch guy (spencer?) is just spreading "lies and propaganda." I have given DETAILED ways to tell the dangerous, extremist radical far-right "Christian" Zionists from the honest, peaceful, loving and tolerant Christians.

Why should I believe that Spencer or other "Islam exposers" are lying and giving only propaganda, when I can SEE that there ARE Muslims who are dangerous?

Do you see how lopsided that is? For you to assert that "the West are Christian Zionists!" even though I've attempted to straighten that issue out time and time again - showing you HOW TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE -- yet you 'discredit' and say 'fraud!' about people who are doing the same thing regarding Muslims.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:06 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



how do you know that whats written in any gospel is what really happened? Or those gospels were written by the person its claimed to be written by?


Well there are books outside the bible that confirm what happened to Jesus...Usually there are certain events that are different but the story is pretty much the same...

And the gospels likely were not written by who they were named after... this is well known


Don't you believe that he was raised up?


Im unsure about his resurrection... and my beliefs about Jesus do not rely on his resurrection in any case...


Qur'an is a revealation, Jesus pbuh recieved a revealation called the Gospel.


The difference is the quality of the man which said "revelation" came to... That being a peaceful loving man as compared to a warmonger...


if i write a gospel of Akragon and people make copies, edit it and add their ideas and after 2000years, someone says "was Akragon lying when he said some statement?"


IF there were three gospels according to Akragon... each of which confirm the others... that would be three people against one person...


how much responsibility will you accept for that book and what it says? None. right?


I don't see what that has to do with anything I've asked you...

The gospels were written within 100 years of his life.... Your book was written 600 years after the life of Jesus...

There is no logical way that you could possibly come to the conclusion that your book is more accurate then the gospels about Jesus' life...

You call him your prophet... perhaps even the greatest prophet in history

why would you go against what he said?




posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


AUdio for th e"ears" huh? Well if its just written down and is not the true qu ran why do people get upset when its burned or anything else done to it? If you are to be taken that way then the Bible as well is also correct since it was written down the same way as the qu ran right?

The thing is that If the qu ran was perfect all muslims would be able to remember it flawlessly after hearing it right?
The arguments about the qu ran are comparable to the bible. The bible was written down first time and not just spoken. Have you ever heard a Rumor? Heres a experiment. Go to a friend at work and start a rumor. By the end of the day it has becoem a full fledged lie. Now who is to say they qu ran was not mistreated this way? people like to add in their own ideals to spice up the storys. Thats the problem with oral stories.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by yuppa
reply to post by logical7
 




The bible was written down first time and not just spoken.people like to add in their own ideals to spice up the storys. Thats the problem with oral stories.


Really it was just written down? That is your argument? The bible was immediately written down no oral transition huh? That's why the flood story exists in ancient Sanskrit before Christianity was a thought.

And of course all the Muslim haters quick to bounce on any pro Muslim comments in any of these threads. Because you know, it's important that the world knows the truth about these evil Muslims, because you know, like you know, them there moo slums will steal your baby and eat your pet. And when there done.....they gonna get you next.


And of course none of you truth seekers couldn't be bothered to call out the obvious nonsense. Your agendas couldn't be more transparent.

edit on 14-6-2013 by Rosinitiate because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by Rosinitiate

Originally posted by yuppa
reply to post by logical7
 




The bible was written down first time and not just spoken.people like to add in their own ideals to spice up the storys. Thats the problem with oral stories.


Really it was just written down? That is your argument? The bible was immediately written down no oral transition huh? That's why the flood story exists in ancient Sanskrit before Christianity was a thought.




First I dont hate muslims. I do take issue with the defense that it is absolutely perfect. Its not. And Yeah the peices of the bible is made of were written down at different times but they were written down a soon as possible And as close as possible to its correct wording. The qu ran was written down as well 600 yrs later. Still the modification of the anchient qu ran to the modern one was according to it a Blasphemy to add anything to it.



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by Rosinitiate

Originally posted by yuppa
reply to post by logical7
 




The bible was written down first time and not just spoken.people like to add in their own ideals to spice up the storys. Thats the problem with oral stories.


Really it was just written down? That is your argument? The bible was immediately written down no oral transition huh? That's why the flood story exists in ancient Sanskrit before Christianity was a thought.




First I dont hate muslims. I do take issue with the defense that it is absolutely perfect. Its not. And Yeah the peices of the bible is made of were written down at different times but they were written down a soon as possible And as close as possible to its correct wording. The qu ran was written down as well 600 yrs later. Still the modification of the anchient qu ran to the modern one was according to it a Blasphemy to add anything to it.

I take offense to anyone who calls it perfect also. Or any religion for that matter, specifically the three faiths of Abraham. A distortion of truth at best.

But even if one were to argue that Islam teaches hate. There are simply not enough stupid people who would actually think killing and hating is ok to take over the world. The wars in the middle east are not because of a bunch of evil backwards mulims. They are evil backwards muslims because like clockwork we go in for one reason or another, usually because the puppet wont listen, and destroy the infrastructure and send them back 30-40years. Then we kill their fathers, there fathers father and likely his fathers fathers father.

All religions are forms of control. And all antireligious threads are nothing more than propaganda used to incite one faith or another into doing something stupid. Pitting one against the other while the true villains in this story snicker exiting stage left......



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 05:47 AM
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reply to post by Rosinitiate
 


And all antireligious threads are nothing more than propaganda used to incite one faith or another into doing something stupid. Pitting one against the other while the true villains in this story snicker exiting stage left......

I am doing ANYTHING but "snickering",Rosi, just in case you are back to bait me again. If you have something to add to the thread - which is inquiring as to WHAT the WEST NEEDS TO KNOW about ISLAM, then please do so.

You have just painted a very nasty and bigoted picture there - clearly there are VERY kind, loving, peaceful Muslims. I want to know how to tell the difference at first glance or first acquaintance. It's an honest and sincere question that remains UNANSWERED.

I happen to agree with you that all Abrahamic religions are objectionable.. I also spend time pointing out the FAULTS in modern Christian thinking - especially among the Dominionists who WANT to bomb the "backward, evil Muslims" back another 30-40 years. That's what THEY call the Muslims, are you part of their crowd of warmongers? You used the same term.

Who is it you think is really doing the "snickering" in this cesspit of hatred, destruction, waste, and horror????

"All anti-religious threads are nothing more than propaganda"? That is a very broad brush you are painting that very ugly picture with.

There are far too many types of threads on here for you to claim that, and I guarandamntee you that I am NOT HERE to start trouble - but to find out what I need to know to STOP the religious bigotry, indoctrination of children, terrorization of people of all ages whether it's using "Fear of God and Hell" OR "Fear of 'Evil Muslims'", OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT WARPS PEOPLE'S THINKING.

Now, is this just another "drive-by" hit? Or do you have something to add?



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 05:55 AM
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reply to post by Rosinitiate
 


You've got a lot of fat nerve judging other members intentions and when you are still so recently only joined.

Keep your attacks on other POSTERS to yourself. It's considered trolling, and against manners and decorum. Quit with the stereotyping and "labelling." You don't know ANY of us, you have no right to put words in our mouths or "assess" our intentions.

Or are you getting paid to be here?
I do this all for free, and I am my own supervisor - with mods as consultants. Either address the issues in the OP or leave it - and those participating - alone.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 06:56 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


just answer me this FF,
WHAT STATEMENTS DID JESUS SAY WHEN HE WAS ON THE CROSS?
Or i'l make it more easy for you,
just tell me, WHAT WERE HIS LAST WORDS?



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 07:31 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





The Tsarnaev brothers were traumatized as little kids by the brutal Chechnyan mess - and then decided to "take revenge" on Americans, who had GIVEN THEM REFUGE. In fact, that was the FIRST thought that went through my mind that day in Boston...."this is revenge." Not "thanks for taking us in." No. "We are going to blow some people's legs off and kill a few while we're at it." The guy in London who butchered a soldier in broad daylight...what about him? He is being given refuge in a Western country, and then hacks to death a citizen of that country who did NOTHING to provoke him. What is HIS deal? How could that soldier, or ANYONE ON THE STREET have determined he was anything BUT a "harmless Muslim refugee."


hmm..
So two Chechnyan guys decide to take "revenge" from Americans for what was done to Chechnyans by Russia? Does it make sense?
Forgive me because i am not answering your point, the reason is that the examples you are giving are doubtful.

The refugees in london who killed that soldier, they had already planned it and ran over him with their car when he came out of barracks. What they did is barberic and Completely WRONG and muslims in UK condemned it strongly.
Here is what one killer said

Speaking with a London accent, he
rants: “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a
tooth. We swear by almighty Allah we
will never stop fighting you.” Bizarrely, he apologises to women
who saw the slaughter, but adds: “In
our land our women have to see the
same. “You people will never be safe.
Remove your governments, they don’t
care about you. You think David
Cameron is going to get caught in the
street when we start busting our
guns? You think politicians are going to die? “No it’s going to be the average guy,
like you and your children. So get rid
of them. Tell them to bring our troops
back so we can all live in peace.”

one of them was denied permission to go to Somalia. Mostly he must have wanted to go to join the fighters.

I am trying to understand these things and then try to think of a solution.
What i see is what i have been telling, they are acting out of frustation and when they see injustice being done and their people being slaughtered.

In India we have our own terrorists, interestingly they are not called terrorists maybe because they are not muslims. Read about naxals in India. They have taken up arms and conduct acts of terrorism because they see injustice being done to them and the government is incompetent to provide them equal opportunities and rather than addressing their complaints, the government keeps crushing them by force!



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 07:46 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 

Just tell us all this, logical, why would anyone believe some dude, who was a known thief and murderer, when he claims visions and revelations from God and he has no proof at all? Visions and revelations that run counter to first hand witness' accounts? Revelations about science and history that turn out to be totally wrong?

Obviously he just made up a bunch of stories and made claims, and the peasants bought into it. Some had the choice to buy into it or be put to death and so they chose to pretend to buy into it to save their lives.

Hey ... I think I'll start a religion. Hey everyone ... God's angel appeared to me last night and told me all sorts of things. I now know the real story about Muhammad and Jesus and I'll be writing it down. You are all expected to buy into what I say .. even though I am a sinner and have no proof of what I'm saying ... and if you don't buy into it I'll be sending thugs out to rob you and perhaps kill you because that's God's will. (not really .. that's just making a point).

Wanna' join my new cult? No? Why not?
I just did the same thing Muhammad did and you buy his.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 08:09 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


The day that you

decide to tell us all more about the geographic location where you live; your level of education; what you do for work, if you work, or where you study if you are a student; what sort of level of 'religiosity' (strictness) you were raised to follow; and which 'sect' you find most close to your own beliefs

is the day that I

will possibly reconsider whether you are not a Muslim agent "planted" here who is trying to "fool" people into believing Islam is tolerant, peaceful, and able to coexist with non-Muslims harmoniously.

As long as you choose NOT to disclose that information, which is TOTALLY UP TO YOU (and I understand not wanting to do so - many people are paranoid about it, with good reason, but in my experience people in their 20s are FAR LESS worried about doing so than we Cold War survivors), I have no reason to listen to you anymore.

If you like, you can send me a u2u with that information rather than filling in the people spending time on here trying to communicate with you and reach some common ground. But don't expect me to "take your side" if that is what you decide to do.

You clearly have run out of useful responses;
are being argumentative with other members who have shown they are truly knowledgeable about aspects of Islam that you only gloss over;
and have not made any suggestions at ALL regarding ending the horror except to blame 'the West' as Zionist Christians or as immoral people altogether, and to claim that the terrorist killers are not "real Muslims."

Go look at the khilafah website that I gave to YOU to see more about what the "Caliphate" is imagined as being. As far as I'm concerned, the lot of you pulling out of the rest of the World is fine. You don't like the secular world? Then give up all ties to it. Start from scratch. You might want to start by talking to the leadership of India about the 'persecuted' Indian Muslims being expatriated and going to live in the M.E. "union" - or else moving of your own accord to a place that has less to do with the global economy.

I really wonder how well your "Christian fiance" knows you - or if she even exists.
That's what has become of the initial trust I had in you, logical7. Sorry about that, but you have only your post history to blame, which includes -- but is not limited to -- failure to follow the conversation, putting words in my mouth, and refusing to answer legitimate questions.



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