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A Baby's Right to Choose

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IBM

posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by Szticks
I am an Adoptee. Thank God I wasn't aborted I've had a really good life and wouldn't choose not to have lived it. Consider me against abortion, with a few exceptions. Those have been mentioned.

One thing I keep reading time and again is "If you don't like abortion just don't do it, and let others do as they please!" This argument holds no water whatsoever to me. It's like saying "If you don't agree with killing people, don't do it but let me go on with it!"

You have to try and understand anothers point of view before you really can discuss something in my opinion. Someone who is against abortion usually believes that life starts at conception. This stand point means that an aborted fetus is actually killed. People who are pro abortion do not consider the fetus to be a living person. Hence the opinion here is an abortion is not murder.

The only way to get a completely objective view on abortion and it's legislation is by determining when life begins. And this would most likely not happen because the opinions differs so much. This is a never ending discussion.


There is one thing that I have a really hard tim understanding though. I can't see how someone can be pro-life and pro-capital punishment. For me, taking a life is taking a life period. Two wrongs don't make a right etc etc. That is perhaps a completely other discussion though.



How do you do sir (or mrs?). I am glad everything worked out fine for you. What I would like to ask the Choicers is would the world be any different if you were not around, ie aborted. Take a look around, imagine if you(the Pro-Choice people) were not there. You are denying a baby the right to life, and that is very selfish and irresponsible. I believe the life starts at birth is really just an excuse for irresponsiblility.




posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by Szticks
I am an Adoptee. Thank God I wasn't aborted I've had a really good life and wouldn't choose not to have lived it. Consider me against abortion, with a few exceptions. Those have been mentioned.

One thing I keep reading time and again is "If you don't like abortion just don't do it, and let others do as they please!" This argument holds no water whatsoever to me. It's like saying "If you don't agree with killing people, don't do it but let me go on with it!"


And listen to the outcry for justice when a new born infant is dumped into a garbage can. If the mother had an partial birth abortion and the baby stabbed in the back of the neck. This is Ok. Except of course for the fact we still have a dead baby.


Originally posted by Szticks
You have to try and understand anothers point of view before you really can discuss something in my opinion. Someone who is against abortion usually believes that life starts at conception. This stand point means that an aborted fetus is actually killed. People who are pro abortion do not consider the fetus to be a living person. Hence the opinion here is an abortion is not murder.

The only way to get a completely objective view on abortion and it's legislation is by determining when life begins. And this would most likely not happen because the opinions differs so much. This is a never ending discussion.


I believe that right here in this topic and the foregoing posts there is enough evidence from reknown scientists and physicians to prove scientifically that a individual human being is begun at conception.
Perhaps there is a reason why people do not want to recognize that the product of abortion is a human baby.


Originally posted by IBM

How do you do sir (or mrs?). I am glad everything worked out fine for you. What I would like to ask the Choicers is would the world be any different if you were not around, ie aborted. Take a look around, imagine if you(the Pro-Choice people) were not there. You are denying a baby the right to life, and that is very selfish and irresponsible. I believe the life starts at birth is really just an excuse for irresponsiblility.


IBM this is also a good reason why many choose not to believe all of the evidence that a individual human being begins at conception.

edit for missing word


[edit on 11/9/2004 by Mahree]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by deaf fences hit
and talk about it being legalised murder, what about smoking, it's pretty much a legalised form of suicide (over a long period of time), yet its ok, so why not b1tch about that? its a womans body, her choice and business, just cause a guy sticks something in her doesnt overwrite that choice at all, ever. dfh out.


I smoke, but at least I'm alive to make that decision in the first place, ever think of that? I know smoking is killing me but I'm not smoking to kill myself. Therefore that doesn't quite count a suicide. Face the facts, all points are pointing, to abortion being murder!!!

[edit on 9-11-2004 by LostSailor]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by LostSailor

Originally posted by deaf fences hit
and talk about it being legalised murder, what about smoking, it's pretty much a legalised form of suicide (over a long period of time), yet its ok, so why not b1tch about that? its a womans body, her choice and business, just cause a guy sticks something in her doesnt overwrite that choice at all, ever. dfh out.


I smoke, but at least I'm alive to make that decision in the first place, ever think of that? I know smoking is killing me but I'm not smoking to kill myself. Therefore that doesn't quite count a suicide. Face the facts, all points are pointing, to abortion being murder!!!

[edit on 9-11-2004 by LostSailor]


it might not be your intention to kill yourself, but you still cant say that one day you might wake up with a cancer that could kill you. ok, i guess suicide is considered intentional, so then maybe its an unconcious harm that could kill., or even better, being ignorant to the facts of what smoking can do to your body. but this isnt about smoking (that was an example), its about choice, free will, etc. every person has the right to decide what happens to their body, and as long as that fetus is in the women, it is both hers and the males, maybe even more so for her due to the trial it has for her. you have the right to cut off your arm if it does not serve you well do you not? so as long as the fetus is not fully developed and both parties have a good reason to not have it, then i see no issue with it as it is their choice, that they have to live with, so they should be sound with it. however, if for whatever reason one manages to wait too long, then they might as well go all the way and have the child as they should have decided if they wanted it or not earlier. that alternative can lead to adoption where another person or couple can provide the love that is needed to that child. people kill all kinds of life everyday without even thinking twice, either by walking on some grass, or by purchasing a product. how are us humans more or so valued than lets say an ant? we've certainly done more harm to this earth than its species among a cazillion others. we are the enemy, havent you heard? dfh out.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by deaf fences hit]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 03:13 AM
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One could argue that by allowing abortion you could be denying people who can't have children of their own, their possibility to have children at all.



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by IBM
What I would like to ask the Choicers is would the world be any different if you were not around, ie aborted. Take a look around, imagine if you(the Pro-Choice people) were not there. You are denying a baby the right to life, and that is very selfish and irresponsible. I believe the life starts at birth is really just an excuse for irresponsiblility.

I personally never said life starts at birth and I don't think anyone else did either.. I don't argue that but I do believe the adult person the featus is dependant on is the only one who can assertain whether or not they are ready and able to provide for it. I also have an immence fear of rape just like any other woman.. if it ever happened to me [knock on wood] I hope I live in a society where I'll recieve some compassion and be able to terminate it so I can get on with the job of trying to heal from it.. emotionally and physically.. that would be nearly impossible to do feeling his 'seed' still inside me. I wouldn't need someone like you calling me a 'murderer' and selfish etc whilst I'm lieing in a hospital bed waiting for my bones to knit. Would you do that looking at my bruised and swollen face? Doesn't sound like someone who has mercy for human life. And the baby and gun you posted.. are you pretending to care about that actual baby? Is that a 'saved' baby? How do you know it's not getting abused right now? You'd be surprised what torcherous things some people will do to babies.. these are fully formed babies.. very different to something the size of a jelly bean. You don't mind them getting born into abusive enviroments? Do you care? Doesn't seem to be an issue at all. Are you personally willing to adopt it? Very doubtful. Seems once it's born it's conveniently not your problem anymore.. how about putting your money where your mouth is and setting up trust funds for these saved babies? How about giving mothers to be money provide for them instead of preaching? You're only interested in keeping it's heart beating till it's out of the mother. What then? Is the value of it's life somehow diminished after it's finnished gestating? Why aren't you as concerned with protecting new-borns and toddlers? There doesn't seem to be much continuity in the 'pro-life' view.


IBM

posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by IBM
What I would like to ask the Choicers is would the world be any different if you were not around, ie aborted. Take a look around, imagine if you(the Pro-Choice people) were not there. You are denying a baby the right to life, and that is very selfish and irresponsible. I believe the life starts at birth is really just an excuse for irresponsiblility.

I personally never said life starts at birth and I don't think anyone else did either.. I don't argue that but I do believe the adult person the featus is dependant on is the only one who can assertain whether or not they are ready and able to provide for it. I also have an immence fear of rape just like any other woman.. if it ever happened to me [knock on wood] I hope I live in a society where I'll recieve some compassion and be able to terminate it so I can get on with the job of trying to heal from it.. emotionally and physically.. that would be nearly impossible to do feeling his 'seed' still inside me. I wouldn't need someone like you calling me a 'murderer' and selfish etc whilst I'm lieing in a hospital bed waiting for my bones to knit. Would you do that looking at my bruised and swollen face? Doesn't sound like someone who has mercy for human life. And the baby and gun you posted.. are you pretending to care about that actual baby? Is that a 'saved' baby? How do you know it's not getting abused right now? You'd be surprised what torcherous things some people will do to babies.. these are fully formed babies.. very different to something the size of a jelly bean. You don't mind them getting born into abusive enviroments? Do you care? Doesn't seem to be an issue at all. Are you personally willing to adopt it? Very doubtful. Seems once it's born it's conveniently not your problem anymore.. how about putting your money where your mouth is and setting up trust funds for these saved babies? How about giving mothers to be money provide for them instead of preaching? You're only interested in keeping it's heart beating till it's out of the mother. What then? Is the value of it's life somehow diminished after it's finnished gestating? Why aren't you as concerned with protecting new-borns and toddlers? There doesn't seem to be much continuity in the 'pro-life' view.


First of all rape is a very rare experience. If you plan on getting an abortion I would call you irresponsible and incapable of making good decisions. After all you got pregant in the first place knowing you will not be able to take care of it. Why dont women like you put your money where your mouth is and and not get pregnant when you know you cannot affoord it. Dont blame me for not providing your family support, blame yourself. If you know you cannot support your family then dont have one!!



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 12:27 AM
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Easy for you to say IBM when your don't put yourself in the shoes of that mother.

Things don't exactly work in the matters you suggest.


IBM

posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 12:30 AM
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Originally posted by RedOctober90
Easy for you to say IBM when your don't put yourself in the shoes of that mother.

Things don't exactly work in the matters you suggest.


Well, she should not have become a mother in the first place if she was not capable of caring for the child. She should not have become pregnant.



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by IBM

Originally posted by RedOctober90
Easy for you to say IBM when your don't put yourself in the shoes of that mother.

Things don't exactly work in the matters you suggest.


Well, she should not have become a mother in the first place if she was not capable of caring for the child. She should not have become pregnant.


Humans are human who make human mistakes...Humanity does not seem to run on these rules of logic you keep bringing up.

It's how things work.


IBM

posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by RedOctober90

Originally posted by IBM

Originally posted by RedOctober90
Easy for you to say IBM when your don't put yourself in the shoes of that mother.

Things don't exactly work in the matters you suggest.


Well, she should not have become a mother in the first place if she was not capable of caring for the child. She should not have become pregnant.


Humans are human who make human mistakes...Humanity does not seem to run on these rules of logic you keep bringing up.

It's how things work.


And intentionally killing a child is logical?



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 12:41 AM
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What do you suggest we do?

Pray for a day where magically all people run on the rules of logic you keep mentioning.....

Or prepare to help out the mother, throw the child into a dumpster.... or lastly.. abortion.

See I have no problem with abortion when the baby is so young, for it has had little time to experience the world.

I'd have a problem killing a child who's had time to experience things.

You oppose abortion.. yet refuse to help out the mother. I'm not sure what else your suggesting.. like I keep saying people by nature do not run off the rules of logic such as "you should not have a baby if you cannot handle it" usual statements which don't pertain to the realities of the world.

In politics I am a progressive.. I could care less about appeasing someones religious beliefs.

[edit on 11-11-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 11-11-2004 by RedOctober90]



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 03:45 AM
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Originally posted by RedOctober90

In politics I am a progressive.. I could care less about appeasing someones religious beliefs.


I thought we were talking about the scientific fact of the baby being a live human being from conception. That is fact not religion. Our secular laws say we cannot kill a human.

Religion does fill the need to help with unwanted pregnancies. Almost all of the main stream religions have care projects on going to help mothers to give birth to a live baby.

The government does provide some help also. I think everyone wants the good for mother and baby.

For mother that would also be help to get on with her life with or without baby. Adoption for baby, job training, etc for mother. Both need care. There ARE many programs out there to do this.



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by IBM
First of all rape is a very rare experience.


Wow. In one single statement you managed to call most women that have claimed to have been raped liars. You must be a very proud little piggy. And of course you DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION you just cowardly sidesteped it. Rape is NOT rare- the OFFICIAL stats are one woman in four.. the real stats are probably about half of all women get raped or sexually assaulted. I'm the only one of my group of friends that hasn't been raped. I got attacked once but punched his lights out before he got me to the ground.. fingers crossed there isn't a next time.
If you want to try trivialise an issue so you don't have to address it- have the decency of actually backing it up with something valid.. don't perpetuate your ignorant misoginous assumptions just because it's convenient for you.

If you plan on getting an abortion I would call you irresponsible and incapable of making good decisions.

If I ever got raped I would seriously consider it.. do you think I should take responsisbilty for this unpredictable thing and take the pill just in case someone breaks into my home or drugs me at a bar? Again.. would you call a rape victim a murderer?

After all you got pregant in the first place knowing you will not be able to take care of it.

I see the 'women get pregnant all on their own' argument is back again...

Why dont women like you put your money where your mouth is and and not get pregnant when you know you cannot affoord it.

Women LIKE ME?!
I wasn't aware you knew me in real life?! There are very few women like me.. I am a very unique individual. I thought we were talking hyperthetically. I have said I am pro-choice- NOT pro-abortion.. I found that inference about my life [and all my twins] distasteful, sexist and out of line.

To even things up: WHAT TYPE OF CONTRACEPTION DO YOU USE? .

I think that is a very fair question.. so.. if you have twelve kids running around that you don't provide for and you've left the mothers in the lurch.. can we force you to have a vesectomy for the sake of humanity? Or do you think you should be free to sew your wild oats?


Dont blame me for not providing your family support, blame yourself. If you know you cannot support your family then dont have one!!


Don't blame you?! Sorry.. we were all under the impression that you considered what women do with their bodies to be your business and that it somehow involved you.. wouldn't that include their entire lives as well? I just thought that this 'caring' must go on after the babies are born because you just care SO MUCH.. what changed? Oh I get it.. you don't give a toss about the actual children.. you only interested with what those evil women are do with their vaginas.



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 06:51 AM
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Rley a couple of things I would like to adress.
1) where did you get the figure of one in four women have been raped? I have a lot of trouble beleveing that it just seems way to high.
2) In terms of contaception allthough I can not speak for other men I never had sex without a condom untill I was engaged to my wife. While I had a large number of sexual encounters it was always protected. However regardless of wheter the man uses a condom r doesn't whether the woman uses a diaphragm or the pill or doesn't every single time you have sex you are accepting the liabillity for preganacies, and std's. Any time a man and a woman have sex they are both willingly entering a situation with potentially life altering consequences. As such if the sex was consensual and a pregnancy results from it I believe both people should be legally required to birth, and raise the resulting child.
Put it this way If I go skydiving I have to sign a liabillity waiver not to sue the company taking me up for any injuries I may receive. If I pack my own chute and t doesnt open and I am paralysed I must live wth the consequences. If you have sex you should be required to live with the consequences as the act of sex inherently carries the risk of pregnancy and transmission of STD.



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 07:34 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
Rley a couple of things I would like to adress.
1) where did you get the figure of one in four women have been raped? I have a lot of trouble beleveing that it just seems way to high.


Here in Australia it's one in four but the US stats differ for some reason [maybe more get reported here or it's because they're old stats- not sure]:


One out of every six American women have been the victims of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime (14.8% completed rape;2.8% attempted rape). A total of 17.7 million women have been victims of these crimes.[Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Survey, National Institute of Justice and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 1998.]


www.rainn.org...

You'd still have to agree though that even 1 in 6 is a hell of alot.

[edit]..and according to this the world statistics is one in three:

www2.ucsc.edu...


2) In terms of contaception allthough I can not speak for other men I never had sex without a condom untill I was engaged to my wife. While I had a large number of sexual encounters it was always protected.

Glad to hear some men are taking responsibilty.


However regardless of wheter the man uses a condom r doesn't whether the woman uses a diaphragm or the pill or doesn't every single time you have sex you are accepting the liabillity for preganacies, and std's. Any time a man and a woman have sex they are both willingly entering a situation with potentially life altering consequences.

I completely aggree.. and here lies another problem I see with society.. the media is obsessed with sexual gratification yet doesn't even make any link to the risks of sex. It also projects women as vaginas on life support which in turn has young blokes expecting more than is realistic but thats another complex issue altogether.

As such if the sex was consensual and a pregnancy results from it I believe both people should be legally required to birth, and raise the resulting child.

How do you get both people to do it when the male has every option to do a midnight runner leaving her in the lurch? Very hard to police. I do think that if men were legally and equally obligated to raise the child women may feel more secure about having them. Whilst for myself I take precautions and take responsibilty for my own actions [can make me a 'prude at times but it's my choice right?
].. I can't judge women I don't know as I don't know what their lives are like or what their reasons and beliefs may be.. and it's none of my business.

[edit on 11-11-2004 by riley]



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 08:00 AM
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Abortion as many know was a major deciding factor in this election, which it should have been. It is legalized murder

So is warfare...yet over half of the electorate didn't seem all that bothered by it.
What part of 'thou shalt not kill' don't you f%%%ing understand?
Hey whataya know...an atheist quoting Big Moe
< o )))) >



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 08:41 AM
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We now live in a world where we could determine who the father is probably for just about every child in america through dna testing. And, well, more and more women have entered into the workforce. Their main handicap is that they cannot devout as much time, and energy to their jobs as their male counterparts and still adequately raise the children.
To me we should:
1. Make women equally responsible to the financial requirements of herself and the children she bears as we do men.
2. And, thus, make men equally responsible for the care and nuturing of himself and the kids he bears.
3. Stabalize our economy!!! Take measure to balance out the cost of living throughout the country, and then come up with some sort of living wage. Recognize the service that parenting gives to a society and make sure that it is compensated for. Thus, if I work the same job as you, but then go home and care for three kids while you go home to do whatever you want, well, maybe I do deserve a higher paycheck. Make the dependents that are noted on your paycheck a determining factor to the living wage that you are entitled to earn working ANY JOB....it would be your minimum wage. Any company can hire your for more than your minimum wage if they wish, but the company must give you that wage if they wish for you to work with them. Also, make that living wage so that if you and your partner (also making their own living wage), can really life quite comfortable on it with some extra perks as a reward for getting this marriage thing right and being able to live together.
3. That just leaves us with a little more that half the population, who chose not to live as families, those who cannot work, and well those who just can't find suitable work for one reason or another...
Well, sorry, but it cost more to run two households than one, and well your minimum wage will still cover it, but there won't be as many extra perks.....unless of course you work real hard and prove to your employer that you deserve more. And, well, unless one really messed up and proved themselves unable to tend to the children, well, maybe you's can work out between yourselves, you know, live close by each other, work different shifts and just share custody of the children like that. But, well, if that doesn't work out, well, the one who has full custody is entitled to half of the expense of putting that child into a state certified daycare center, and again, your minimum wage will be enough to handle it, but it will cut into your "perks". And, in the case that neither wishes to have custody of it, you may enroll it into one of the many state sponsered bording schools, and each of you will share the cost.
4. In the case that you can find no job, have so many kids that no one wishes to hire you, or whatever, well, come visit the State Employment Commission, it won't be the best job in the world....maybe just picking up trash by the road, but we'll find you something to do.
5. Severely disabled people, and the elderly, or orphans, of course will be automatically eligible for their living wage..and should be the only ones that are recieving any sort of government assistance.
6. Abortion is no longer permitted except for cases where it will endanger the life of the mother, and it will be treated as a disablitity the last 3 months of her pregnacy and until she has recovered. Thus she is entitled to her minimum wage.


Only one problem.....there goes our free market system, ..which I still say don't exist anyways, as well as many of our freedoms. But, well, with our freedoms came alot of responsibilities and I think we've proven that they are just too much handle anyways...

At least with this, it is perfectly clear who is responsible for the children, forces them to accept that responsibility, while giving them options, and clearly points out just how that responsibility is to be met....by hard work!! Not a run down to the nearest government handout agency...and yes, it holds the business sector responsible also.



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by mwm1331



2) In terms of contaception allthough I can not speak for other men I never had sex without a condom untill I was engaged to my wife. While I had a large number of sexual encounters it was always protected.

Glad to hear some men are taking responsibilty.


However regardless of wheter the man uses a condom r doesn't whether the woman uses a diaphragm or the pill or doesn't every single time you have sex you are accepting the liabillity for preganacies, and std's. Any time a man and a woman have sex they are both willingly entering a situation with potentially life altering consequences.

I completely aggree.. and here lies another problem I see with society.. the media is obsessed with sexual gratification yet doesn't even make any link to the risks of sex. It also projects women as vaginas on life support which in turn has young blokes expecting more than is realistic but thats another complex issue altogether.


As such if the sex was consensual and a pregnancy results from it I believe both people should be legally required to birth, and raise the resulting child.


All of the above quotes are certainly appropriate and add to this discussion. I am glad to see this kind of post instead of the constant hate rants on both sides of the question.

As far as the rape statistics I'm sure that many rapes are not reported for one reason or another. Probably the statistics come from the brutal rapes where a woman is also beaten plus the rape. How lucky the unbeaten ones were, huh. Hard to believe that some do believe that.



posted on Nov, 11 2004 @ 10:07 AM
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Originally posted by Mahree
All of the above quotes are certainly appropriate and add to this discussion. I am glad to see this kind of post instead of the constant hate rants on both sides of the question.

Yeah.. sorry about that.. I just got rattled with the 'rape is rare' thing and a couple of other things that haven't seemed very realistic. I can understand the prolife argument but not when it's done through demonising women etc. It's a cultural issue and not as simple as it being about girls who don't want to wreck their figures or other pettie reasons. Once the real reasons are understood and not blamed on 'sluttiness'.. [lazy answer] only then can we start a dialogue on real solutions. Abortion is just a sign that society isn't working as it should be.

As far as the rape statistics I'm sure that many rapes are not reported for one reason or another. Probably the statistics come from the brutal rapes where a woman is also beaten plus the rape. How lucky the unbeaten ones were, huh. Hard to believe that some do believe that.

Actually they say it's better if a woman has bruises as it proves there was force.. dimented huh? No bruises, no proof.. no point in reporting.. it'd just come comes down to his word/ her word. The 'justice' system doesn't inspire me greatly.




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