A Baby's Right to Choose

Originally posted by IBM
it was not directed at you just the ones who say stuff like "grow a uterus", if my comment came off as harsh, i apologize, but i was just trying to make a point, i have a habit of saying stuff like that, to make my point. People need to look past its harshness and view on the substance.

That is the problem right now on the board, people are TOO vocal in their views. It's hard to see the substance if bludgened by opinion.

An analogy, you can have the sweetest cake but if it is covered with crap who's going to taste to the cake?

Interprid, IBM is directing his views on me, and so far he has not argument here, he is either to young to understand or to all old and now he feels like a crusader in his religous agenda, he blames women but forgot like you said it takes two to tangle, that is ok, IBM you have not argument anymore, I had seen it all you have nothing anymore to show me, or to scare me with.

By the way take care of your seed and be carefull were you plant it, don't waste it.

Originally posted by marg6043

Let see how ridiculous all these sound so far.

women should be call killers also when they menstruate every month, when their "living" egg does not get fertilized.

Doctors should be called killers every time the performed hysterectomies on women because they are killing the "living" eggs in the woman�s ovaries.


But more than anything I want to see men call killers for spilling their "living" seeds in the toilet or in the bed after a "sinful" dream, they are killers of millions of "potential babies" when they have a littler fun. After all the bible "does" mention men and their seed not women and their uterus.

Just a minute Marg,

I haven't heard anyone here or anywhere else saying that destroying an "egg" or a "sperm" is killing a child.

Our argument is that after the "egg" is fertilized by the "sperm" it is a human embryo with human DNA. "It" is not just a cluster of cells. This human embryo possesses the ability to function as a living, growing organism.

He or she, the human embryo, begins growing in the mothers womb. This is now a pretty dangerous place to be.

Look, we have serious problems with society that prevent us from coming to a reasonable solution to this problems.

So I have some advice (I know everyone is so excited).

Ladies:

It has come to pass that men are not taken seriously half the time. Who can blame you though, they are trained improperly. But let's not forget that you are as well.

A woman's strength is different than a man's, and in that she is capable of doing things that we can not. But claiming control of your womb (which may be yours by right) is causing problems because it is not the womb that is in question.

Although this is not a completely congruent parallel, if two people obtain a loan for a car, and the woman claims it for the first year because it will be housed at her place, then she would be responcible for it completely by reasonable people.

This causes problems and I would reconsider your options when cutting men's rights out.

Men:

We have sunk a slight bit lower than the women in recent times. We need to reclaim our rights to the child, BUT we also need to assume the responcibilities that come with it.

It's almost impossible to legislate these sorts of things, so social change is more needed than legislative change (although that could help).

Men are talanted in their own ways regardless of what the women's rights people say.

Men and women may be equal, but we will never be the same, and in that you must learn how to treat and talk to them or you will fail in life.


Everyone:

Let's come to a conclusion about this. That being that we will start a new begining on ATS, to be civil to each other and to understand the complex nature of each sex and of the sensative nature of this topic.

I DO advocate adoption, and my wife has put a child up for adoption that I hold her once or twice a year when she gets pictures of him.

I also am adoption my oldest son Connor, who is awesome. His father is a detriment to society and a general scumbag, but we are not all like that and we need to encourage men to be like this rather than to glorify it with "baby's mama" talk.

Let's get back to basics here.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Look, we have serious problems with society that prevent us from coming to a reasonable solution to this problems.

So I have some advice (I know everyone is so excited).

Yes Jethro, thank you....

Your points are all valid.

My son's wife was pregnant..by him. But, she wanted an abortion. He wanted the child. It ended up with a divorce, but she did not destroy the child.

There are so many who want to adopt, but can't seem to here in the US. Many people go to other countries for their babies. Lucky little babies. But, maybe we should look at the adoption rules and regulations here also.

I do know that there are many places and organizations where the pregnant women may apply for help. If it is a case of a young woman, there is also help available for her to keep her baby or for adoption. There are also training programs for jobs.

As someone said here before....this is an age old problem.

Originally posted by JediMaster
Abortion in my humble opinion is legal murder, BUT, in the case of incest it should be allowed since incest is a very sick crime. In the case of rape, the child should be sent to an adoption faciility if the mother does not want the child. I believe life starts at conception based on factual evidence such as biology.

You think a woman who has been brutily violated should have to endure the added trauma of continuing the pregnancy full term? Thats sick not to mention cruel. Why should her life be sacrificed for rapist's spawn? What makes it more valuable?

OK, i started reading this thread, got halfway through and noticed it was the same argument over and over again, basically repeated with different words.

I'll let you know I am pro-life.

Yes the Woman has the Uteris, big deal!!! I have the penis and you can't have the baby without my sperm. I'm sorry God decided you should have to carry around the baby for nine months. Does that mean you and only you should have the right to decide the baby should be murdered?

Maybe, if abortion wasn't so convienent, there would be far less of it going on? Yes I'm sure the occasional woman would get out the coathanger, but she'd probably think twice about what shes doing.

Here's a new spin on this thread. I'd like you to think of this example, it is currently affecting me and my girlfriend. We are in a sexual relationship and the topic has come up. My girlfriend is pro-chioce and has stated she isn't ready to have a child. She would get an abortion. She knows my firm belief that abortion is murder. I said if we got pregnant, I wouldn't want her to get an abortion and that I would take the baby even if it wasn't convenient for me at this time. Yet I, as the male, have no choice in the matter. Why do I have no choice in the matter?

I thought we didn't live in a sexist society.

P.S. pregnancy from rape is very, VERY rare. The experience is so traumatic to the female that the right conditions needed for fertilization usually doesn't occur. I know this true but can't seem to find the web site that proves this. I'm currently looking and will post it when I find it. If anyone else can find it please post the results

www.johnstonsarchive.net...

Here's one, its not as good as the one I found before but it can give you an idea.

[edit on 8-11-2004 by LostSailor]

Originally posted by LostSailor
Here's a new spin on this thread. I'd like you to think of this example, it is currently affecting me and my girlfriend. We are in a sexual relationship and the topic has come up. My girlfriend is pro-chioce and has stated she isn't ready to have a child. She would get an abortion. She knows my firm belief that abortion is murder. I said if we got pregnant, I wouldn't want her to get an abortion and that I would take the baby even if it wasn't convenient for me at this time. Yet I, as the male, have no choice in the matter. Why do I have no choice in the matter?

I thought we didn't live in a sexist society.

No.. we DO live in a sexist society.. a prime example of this is this entire thread even existing. It the woman's choice [and should remain so].. because men don't get pregnant. Did you really need to ask that question? In regards to your girlfriend.. If you don't want to risk her getting pregnant and getting an abortion.. either use protection or don't have sex with her.

Now that you have announced you are prolife.. wouldn't it be irresponsible and unethical for you to even risk her getting pregnant? Lot of cold showers for you boy.

[edit]

P.S. pregnancy from rape is very, VERY rare. The experience is so traumatic to the female that the right conditions needed for fertilization usually doesn't occur. I know this true but can't seem to find the web site that proves this. I'm currently looking and will post it when I find it. If anyone else can find it please post the results

Actually that is COMPLETLEY UNTRUE and is just propaganda.. designed to infer that any women who says she got pregnant through rape is a liar which is offensive.. rape victims have to go through enough. Trauma does not affect conception. If it did there would be no point of having rape camps for racial clensing. If you are going to spout of 'facts' make sure you get them from actual women's hospitals/clinics and not prolife sites.

[also it is routine to give day after pills asap to victims so that may account for differences in conception rates.]

[edit on 8-11-2004 by riley]

[edit on 8-11-2004 by riley]

Originally posted by riley

No.. we DO live in a sexist society.. a prime example of this is this entire thread even existing. It the woman's choice [and should remain so].. because men don't get pregnant. Did you really need to ask that question? In regards to your girlfriend.. If you don't want to risk her getting pregnant and getting an abortion.. either use protection or don't have sex with her.

Now that you have announced you are prolife.. wouldn't it be irresponsible and unethical for you to even risk her getting pregnant? Lot of cold showers for you boy.

I do use protection, and yes I do (like most Americans and people for that matter) enjoy sex. Birth control isn't 100% effective, and abstinence is great but not for me. Thats a pretty lame comment that women get pregnant and "I" should stop having sex with her. She enjoys the sex more than me most of the time. You took what I said and spun it into something different ignoring the main point I tried to make. That "I" as a responsibe male with a decent job should have a choice in the matter!!!!

just my 2 cents....


I don't believe in abortions. To me, to me it is wrong, I'm entitled to my opinion...

now let's look at it with an open mind...

should it be legal, probably, as others have mentioned, if it was illegal, it would be done anyways, someway somewhere....

I see both sides of this arguement.

I personally wouldn't make the choice for my Gal, if she asked me to help her with the decision, I would and have told her, I don't believe in it, she's the one who has to make the ultimate choice... do what she feels is right. I would try to support her regardless.

I don't feel that it's right in God's eyes, but on the other hand, would God want to see a child born into this world and mistreated, abandonded to be adopted or even left for dead in some alley or door step ?

I guess, I'm leaning to be more pro choice... I don't know though this is a real tough one.

Luckily I've never had to go through this with a partner and hope that I don't ever have to.

I do use protection, and yes I do (like most Americans and people for that matter) enjoy sex. Birth control isn't 100% effective, and abstinence is great but not for me. Thats a pretty lame comment that women get pregnant and "I" should stop having sex with her.

Why? You do understand that sperm causes pregnancy don't you?

You took what I said and spun it into something different ignoring the main point I tried to make. That "I" as a responsibe male with a decent job should have a choice in the matter!!!!

You have a choice. . if you don't like the choice she might make.. don't partake in putting her in the position where she might have to make it.

I noticed that the rape issue conveniently got sidelined [as usual] ..and that link you provided.. I follwed through to the main page only to find it wasn't a doctor's site.. but a political pro-bush site. Forgive me if I find it's credibilty a little questionable.

[edit on 8-11-2004 by riley]

Riley,

I can only hope that the other people who read this thread can see my point. Yu're just avoiding the question. I just voted you the way below award. Can someone else please comment on my thread besides this guy/girl.

Someone who can or does get laid every once and a while.

BTW where did you find it to be a Bush pro-life site. click the return to home link at the bottom of the page. Yes I know, its out dated, but its the best one I could find ATM. Maybe if you looked for one instead of bashing my points, you might see what I'm trying to say. Abortion by rape made up 1% of the total number of abortions!!!

www.sba-list.org...

[edit on 8-11-2004 by LostSailor]

Originally posted by LostSailor
Riley,

I can only hope that the other people who read this thread can see my point. Yu're just avoiding the question. I just voted you the way below award. Can someone else please comment on my thread besides this guy/girl.

Someone who can or does get laid every once and a while.

I understand EXACTLY what you mean.. you want some say over what happens to a potential child of yours.. you want to be able to over rule a decisions your gf makes and force her have a child she doesn't want? My point is you have choices BEFORE the fact.. after the fact the child is a part of her body.. she has to carry it for nine months and the sad fact is alot of men might decide they don't want to be a daddy anymore and take off. She also has to go through aganising pain when she delivers. A woman can't walk away. She also can't work for a time.. and might have to nurse. She might have complications that may effect her health. She might have career ambitions that she may have to hold off indefinently if she has it. She might also be single and can't provide for it. She might have other problems that complicate things. You, yourself have completely avoided my point as well. Many prolifers scream "But she shouldn't have had sex in the first place." or "Why didn't she protect herself?!" when here is pro-life a guy who refuses to stop having sex yet is having a winge because his gf is pro-choice. What if you split up if she gets pregnant? What do you want the right to do? Lock her up till she has the baby? Get a court order? You need to be more specific in what right you think you're entitled to.. and whether they over ride her own.

Hey, she's having sex too, why arent you bashing her for having sex with me. So what if she has to carry the baby for 9 months. I don't want my first born child dead. See my point there!!!

Originally posted by LostSailor
Abortion by rape made up 1% of the total number of abortions!!!
[edit on 8-11-2004 by LostSailor]

I've spoken to medical people on this subject and they've said there is no difference [I've heared the claim before and decided to verify]. That site also has the words 'abortion homocide' which has obvious ethical bias. The stats aren't really relevant.. and the 1% stats are dangerous. If abortion gets banned with a rape exception.. and this false number is taken as fact.. all these women will be assumed to be liars. If it is banned.. all women who have been raped and request and abortion will be forced to PROVE IT and as it is very few rape victims come forward anyway as they are not believed [and those stats are no doubt based on reported rape victims].. so not only do they have the trauma of the rape.. but the trial [where they get to see the rapist get a couple of months] where if he is found not guilty because of lack of evidence [his word/ her word] .. she might get denied having an abortion and have to carry the baby full term anyway.

Originally posted by LostSailor
Hey, she's having sex too, why arent you bashing her for having sex with me.

1. She isn't here.
2. She is not the one claiming to be pro-life.

So what if she has to carry the baby for 9 months.

Wow. You really are in tune with your feminine side. Perhaps you should do a little research and try and get at least a little bit of a clue in what physical changes a woman has to go through instead of trivialising it.

I don't want my first born child dead. See my point there!!!

Yes I do. If you don't want a child born dead and it looks like that might be it's fate.. don't risk creating one at all.

Originally posted by riley
Why? You do understand that sperm causes pregnancy don't you?

I don't really have anything to add. I've said all that needs be said by a person in defense of the Pro-Life stance.

But I found this to be really funny.

Too long read 4p. for me.

The woman is in pregnency 40 days before the conception !!!!!!!!

If you put an name to the baby (any kinde ) is wrong. Marc, Jean ,James,

Michael or chapo --- just an etiquete Hey you follow me now ???

Leser les enfants libres !!!! chapo Hmmm

It is always interesting to note how women are ultimately blamed for the pregnancy, and often by males no less. The anti-abortion crowd when pushing their agenda tend to conveniently forget that men do the raping, men utilize the drugs to take advantage of women, men lie about having had vasectomies. Anti-abortionists pretend that they do not use endorse the use of the morning after pill. It is men who don't want to wear condoms and swear they are flawless at teh execution of Vatican roulette. Most importantly, men are the first to absolve themselves from claim to the child, while demanding that women carry the burden of birthing and supporting the same child the male does not want. The ultimate solution to make this go away would be to enforce the law that every father, bar none is held responsible for the care of a child a woman does not want, and must be made to fully support same. The issue would die a quick death I assure you.

It has been interesting watching this battle in the US, the moral majority responsible for electing Bush are the same who demand to control a woman's body. Rather than battle for every foetus to be born, their energies would be best directed toward the welfare of the child once it has exited the womb. The following statistics show a startling hypocrisy of these same moralists. This map of child abuses in 2002 shows that the very states supporting Bush and his anti-abortion agenda need to practice moral righteousness in their own homes first:
This shaded map of the United States indicates the State rate of victims who were removed from their home as a result of an investigation or assessment. The map depicts 5 categories of rates-less than 15, 15.1 to 29, 29.1 to 44, 44.1 to 60, and not available.

States With Less than 15 Victims Per 1,000 Children
Alaska, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Maryland, Massachusetts, Utah, West Virginia, and Wisconsin.

States With 15.1-29 Victims Per 1,000 Children
Arkansas, Colorado, District of Columbia, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, New Mexico, Ohio, Rhode Island, Texas, Vermont, and Virginia.

States With 29.1-44 Victims Per 1,000 Children
California, Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, and Wyoming.

States with 44.1-60 Victims Per 1,000 Children
Arizona, Hawaii, and Washington.

According to the same source, 81% of child abuse is perpetrated by a parent, 2.9% by the unmarried partner of the parent, and fathers accounted for 42% of the parental abuse. 20% of these children were physically abused, 10% sexually abused. How many children are they talking about? 896,000 in one year alone.

These statistics are what the anti-abortion agenda don't address, and don't consider, for if they did, they would have no moral ground upon which to stand, never mind the huge increase these statistics would grow by.
www.acf.hhs.gov...

Originally posted by IBM
Marg, you and a few other dieharders have not answered my question yet that was in my first post. What would you do if someone pointed a gun at your head and said, "It is my choice to decide your life because i am irresponsible and do not want to take care of you." What would you say?

I would say...okay. You don't have to take care of me.

Would you kill me then?

Just curious