Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

Originally posted by Akragon
I think I see the confusion here...

This is basically your way of dismissing a "gnostic" book...

Huh? I think you're adding to the confusion -- what "gnostic" book am I dismissing? If you mean John, I'm not rejecting it, I'm saying it isn't Gnostic, it just makes some arguments that could be viewed as being similar, particularly if one wasn't aware of the reason it was written, as a refutation of the Ebionites.

IF john wrote his gospel to dismiss gnostic scripture (even in part) I would assume there would be nothing that relates to gnostic scripture within his book... but there are plenty of similarities...

Again, you're getting confused -- Christian Gnosticism didn't exist at the time that the Gospel of John was written, so it's obviously not dismissing anything Gnostic. And when Biblical canon was being established in the last Second Century, Gnosticism did exist (see Tertullian) so if John was Gnostic, in any way, it would have been rejected (the Apocalypse of Peter was rejected because there were a couple parts that could be seen as being Docetic, for example.)

I've read some scholars even place that book as early as 50ad.

Parts... probably. The Gnostic stuff, definitely not, as it reflects a mythos that didn't exist until 140AD or later.

IF one takes that into consideration... I think its quite possible the idea of reincarnation was edited out of the gospels we have presently... but the editors missed some things that can only be found with a deeper understanding of said book.

Highly unlikely. I've written a number of posts on the diminishing likelihood of textual editing as time went on, and by the time of the Gnostic Christians, the texts were in sufficient circulation to say that radical changes were unlikely.

reply to post by spiritualarchitect


LOL!! Someone "got it!"
Yeah.....I know....right??

We have "been here and done that" before....
once we finally "stick the landing" (as in...don't do that again! It sucked!), we are unstuck and can move along.

reply to post by Mindless1980


Well thanks for saying so!!
I'm enjoying it, too. The subject never gets "old," in my opinion.

Yes, the Spiritism link is great, isn't it?
If you come up with even a little thought or question, I know I'd like to hear it (and others here probably would as well!)

reply to post by Akragon


So, what was your answer for whether or not Elijah and John were both impostors?

Elijah paved the way for Yahweh and John quoted Zechariah's quote from Yahweh, so how does that fit in with your analogy that Yahweh was an impostor?

You did or didn't believe Jesus when he said that his Father was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

reply to post by logical7

i dint get your point.
I had asked, how it matters if its either suffering life after life or just in hell?

Hell is torture by fire... for your mistakes in life... and apparently its eternal...

rebirth is only torture if you make your life hell...

Let me give an example, reincarnation says we learn and go higher at each birth, does that mean we suffer lesser each step up?

Reincarnation doesn't say we go higher... Not everyone learns from their mistakes....

Because if the idea is to reach enlightment like Jesus pbuh, he actually suffered more after reaching higher level.

His suffering wasn't self inflicted.... Ours tends to be...

So what i get is, first i suffer and my soul learns(i am not told what) then after a lot of trial and errors and sufferings i get insights and get enlightened and then i suffer more to help others??
And that much sufferings to a good guy like me??
.
So in this theory everyone suffers, bad guys for karma, good for being good.
And a curious question about Jesus pbuh suffering that much, i dont at all believe that it was his karma. Then how he gets paid back in next birth?

What karma did he accumulate?

wasn't he sinless? I guess that depends on your belief in certain scripture.... some say he wasn't so sinless when he was younger...

He forgave the people who did it, so they dont obviously suffer the karma. but how he gets rewarded?

I would assume his reward comes with everyone that believes his message and lives it...

reply to post by adjensen


Ok maybe we're all confuzzed here....

Do you believe its possible that john believed in reincarnation, considering the extreme parallels with his gospel and the gospel of Thomas, which fully supports the idea?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

So, what was your answer for whether or not Elijah and John were both impostors?

Elijah paved the way for Yahweh and John quoted Zechariah's quote from Yahweh, so how does that fit in with your analogy that Yahweh was an impostor?

You did or didn't believe Jesus when he said that his Father was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

They were both human...

John quoted the OT because that was the scripture from his religion... same as Jesus quoted the OT in some cases because he had to use what the people around him studied...

And the true God is the father of all life... all humanity...so that would include said OT people...

The "angel of the lord" which appears in the OT was not the true God...

reply to post by Akragon


Are you really going to tell me that Jesus and John both quoted the Old Testament just to get people to believe them, even if it wasn't true? You don't really think anyone's going to believe that, do you?

reply to post by Deetermined


As far as I've read they both had their own message which didn't comply with that of the OT...

The little we know of john has him preaching about the coming of Jesus.... who's message wasn't the same as the OT...

Jesus VS OT God

but no one said you have to believe me...

reply to post by Akragon


Here's what Jesus said about his own message...

Luke 24:44-45

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

By the way, Zechariah was one of those prophets.

Originally posted by Akragon


The "angel of the lord" which appears in the OT was not the true God...

Let's take a look at that again...

Exodus 3:2-6

2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Now, here's what Jesus had to say about that...

Mark 12:24-27

24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

What else did Jesus say about the "God of the living"?

Matthew 16:15-18

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by akushla99

 

The mechanism of reincarnation is a set 'piece'...whether a person 'indulges' in it, or disbelieves it, is irrelevant...

maybe i dont get you, but are you saying that reincarnation is a "fact" just like a christian says that Jesus pbuh is the only way?
And you actually used the example of a one-legged four years old, orphaned, uneducated, starving boy going to christian hell to show the error of such certainty??!
But ok, to answer your question, it doesnt hurt me to be a muslim and believe what i believe, if i am right its great, if not then reincarnation is all about second chances as you said that it doesnt matter if i disbelieve it, its a "set"piece.
I am at the safest position!!

Ya...that's right!...a sensible mechanism...created by an almightily intelligent, all powerful, omniscient source...a mechanism that encompasses all kindle-split religions - the followers of which utilise on a micro-second basis the precept of FREE WILL...the most loving gesture a father could give to his 'children'...

The starving child image was used to illustrate the idiocy of the whacked out discussions that take place on here and other forums about the innocence of unborn, young and untainted vehicles that can and do grow up not knowing the name of jesus, and that Fundies will tell you that, they will surely go to hell if they do not embrace jesus into thier lives...point 1. (pure and absolute idiocy)

Point 2: If you follow the core tenets of your religion (not the Fundie whackiness) you will be operating under the guidance of prophets who brought the message to the people...Muslim prophets also!...since the COMMON message come from the same SOURCE...

...then, I agree, rightly so...you are in the best position...as a unit following the loving laws of the source - through the interpretation of a prophet who happened to be 'incarnated' in a part of the world where Islam was prevalent...or some other combination...

A99

reply to post by Taunos

Concerning Kardec's "Gospel According to Spiritism"...

Much of Kardec's writing was channeled by demon possessed mediums.

Demons are VERY proficient at disguising themselves as these entities, and can easily deceive you.

The fact that Kardec says the Devil does not exist and that he doesn't believe in salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross makes it VERY obvious that he is totally deceived.

Originally posted by Murgatroid
reply to post by Taunos

 

Concerning Kardec's "Gospel According to Spiritism"...

Much of Kardec's writing was channeled by demon possessed mediums.

Demons are VERY proficient at disguising themselves as these entities, and can easily deceive you.

The fact that Kardec says the Devil does not exist and that he doesn't believe in salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross makes it VERY obvious that he is totally deceived.

Hi Murgatroid, I respect your ideas but those are false arguments. We could talk forever here I would be saying his teaching are presented by high moral and pure spirits, and you would be saying the contrary. The idea of a Devil, source of all evil, does not exist in the Spiritism. Although, there are evil spirits those who did not find their path, blind by the material things or any other feeling like anger or envy, but they are still our brothers and some day they will see the light. You see, evil is related to the evolution level, there are many worlds where evil does not exist anymore, because God did not make you, me or anyone evil. We must fight against these thoughts, feeling or needs that corrupt the body and the soul. Moral progress is something really amazing and when you start seeing your neighbor/brother just like yourself there is no evil, no envy, no anger...but that's another conversation.

Also demon possessed mediums is something that is wrong, but, again, seems we share a different point of view regarding religion so I'll not try to explain or convince you about this since this thread is about reincarnation.

The sacrifice of Jesus has a much bigger meaning in the Spiritism doctrine, the ideas go beyond his pain during his material existence. Obviously, I think it will be hard to make you believe in what I'm saying, but God, the creator of all things, is pure love and caring, Spiritism is all about that: Charity - be it towards a family member, a complete stranger, a friend or anyone.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Does God demand perfection from each soul?

No. "Perfection" is the Creation itself...and we are part of it....
But you are thinking of "God" as a person and judge. I don't subscribe to that personified image. See summerbreeze's post above yours...

i would disagree, if we are perfect, why the need to learn?
Is soul not a creation too?
when the soul came 1st time was it perfect?
If the soul wasnt and it came from the Source, then how is the Source perfect?
.
I think the creation is perfect and also the soul, but just at birth, baby pure as they say!. The soul just has a choice to become imperfect(free will).
A tree on the other hand will always be perfect as its behaving as the Creator made it to.
The Creator also gave humans power over some creations, crops, cattles etc and humans try to modify it genetically but only make it imperfect. The same goes for environment, any eco system, the whole earth and good we havent 'advanced' yet to trying to control the solar system.
Reincarnation theory thinks the soul will become better/perfect ultimately in the end.

reply to post by Klassified

I can only speak for myself, but to me, the reward and punishment system is majorly flawed as much as any other. It seeks to correct(punish) first and foremost, and seeks to give understanding only to the effect that it motivates you by fear to do well. That is a flawed philosophy to me, and proves that it is a concoction of man, and not an omniscient supreme being. By using a reward and punishment system for the whole of a persons life, you keep them fearful, as well as morally and spiritually bankrupt, and stunt their growth as an individual, and indeed, you stunt the growth of a species. There is plenty of evidence that the reward and punishment system does not work. All one has to do is observe our world, and our leaders.

a child learns by reward/punishment. I could go as far as telling that whatever you know till now is learnt by the same.
The only difference in big three is that the punishment is mentioned, so yes fear of punishment is a motivator. But also a reward is mentioned, another motivator. And they both have to be extreme as compared to whats available on earth, a child will not give you back a bottle of sleeping pills unless you offer a better/tasty alternative.
And about the world and leaders, do they fear punishment? Is there any setup to punish bad leadership?
What about law and order in a society? You think people dont commit crimes only because they value not to harm others? or also they are afraid of a prison cell?

reply to post by Akragon

Hell is torture by fire... for your mistakes in life... and apparently its eternal... rebirth is only torture if you make your life hell...

hell is a place for people who make the mistake of believing with certainty that they dont make mistakes/are not wrong, in other words who are incapable of learning.

Reincarnation doesn't say we go
higher... Not everyone learns from
their mistakes....

exactly, so wouldnt their be any souls that would never learn and suffer the same either in eternal hell or by eternal reincarnational karma.
That was my point.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon

 

Hell is torture by fire... for your mistakes in life... and apparently its eternal... rebirth is only torture if you make your life hell...

hell is a place for people who make the mistake of believing with certainty that they dont make mistakes/are not wrong, in other words who are incapable of learning.

Reincarnation doesn't say we go
higher... Not everyone learns from
their mistakes....

exactly, so wouldnt their be any souls that would never learn and suffer the same either in eternal hell or by eternal reincarnational karma.
That was my point.

The process of learning is not only based in the reincarnation process, there are other parts. At least that's what I see in Spiritism (not sure about other religions/doctrines), you can't only look at the learning process only by the reincarnation view, that's why it seems confusing.

reply to post by logical7

I think the creation is perfect and also the soul, but just at birth, baby pure as they say!. The soul just has a choice to become imperfect(free will).
A tree on the other hand will always be perfect as its behaving as the Creator made it to.

A seed needs a lot of growing before it becomes a mature, fruit-bearing or shade-giving tree. It sloughs off its old leaves and goes through a period of dormancy, then...voila!...buds out again. Every year.

Even evergreens drop their needles and grow new ones.

The soul is perfect, even if it's not fully grown. We watch the seasons and years go by, and the trees get bigger; once it dies we see the rings of each year of growth. Some rings are thicker than others. We can look at reincarnation as a cycle just like the growth of a tree from a seed.

I have several huge walnut trees in my yard - in "fruitful" seasons they produce enough walnuts to carpet the entire yard - these walnuts represent "good deeds" and, the tree doing what God designed it to do. But last year there were only a few fruits, and they were the size of large grapes, rather than tennis balls...

what happened? Was it the tree's fault? Did it get ill? Or was it simply the climate that season wasn't perfect for that tree to grow its healthy and typical harvest of walnuts. Did the Creator then kill the tree? No. It survived another winter, dormant, and then leafed out again in the spring.

Should I have "smote" it down and burned it just because it had an "off" year due to circumstances? Was it still doing its best? Did it "harm" anyone? Well, it failed to provide food for the squirrels...."bad tree!!" ?? No. Poor cycle. The tree lacked something it needed to produce fruit.

If we look at each ring on a tree as an analogy, we can easily see that a baby growing to adulthood may not have "perfect" performance in one body compared to what another lifetime might produce.

Why should humans to be held separate from the CYCLE of things we see all around us?

The soul doesn't have a "choice" to become imperfect; but, it can have bad go-rounds that produce less growth by making poor decisions. Each soul is a unique part of the One Creation.

reply to post by wildtimes


Beautiful post wildtimes and great analogy