Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

reply to post by logical7

i just twised the analogy to show you the demand of the Source to cuddle with just perfected souls.

I'm having trouble understanding your point.

I come with NO MEMORY because i dont have one from past life,

not consciously, no. Few people do. That doesn't mean your higher self - your soul - doesn't remember. That's what I refer to as the "indwelling Spirit" - that spark in all of us that talks to our gut

and if i dont need to know as my soul is just better and knows it and goes and thinks about it only after leaving me then for all that i care my soul can go to hell! Literally and figuratively.

Okay, well, my soul yearns for peace and love; where did that yearning come from?
I am wondering now: What your age is - what your native language is - and whether you were born into Islam? Or if you adopted it as a choice you thought through carefully?

I am just a vehicle or as hindus say a change of clothes, almost makes me feel my soul is a parasite. Because am i logical7 or a blacksmith who lived in 750AD!! If the soul will just learn anyway then why do i care, why dont i just do my things, i dont need to be good, do i?

Have you ever suffered, log7, really, truly suffered - endured despair, or heartache, or lost a loved one?
Would you wish those incredibly painful experiences on anyone else?

Has any other person ever broken your heart - or lied to you, deceived you when you trusted them? Abandoned you with no farewell or apology?

For me, "being good" allows me peace of mind. When I've been hurt, or hurt others, I am uncomfortable -- and that pain, regret, loss - consequences of mistakes - is enough of a negative to keep me from doing so.

We all make mistakes in judgment - we all do things without thinking them through, or seeing the consequences before it's too late.

Also, regarding your thoughts about Jesus and karma - he doesn't have to "come back" - none of us do once we've reached the stage of compassion and love for all life....THEN we are ready to not HAVE to come back and suffer again.

Anyone who would believe in reincarnation -- in inevitable karmic debt or reward -- and then just do "whatever" without regard to how it affects others, or will affect their own future -- is wishing pain and hell upon OTHERS as well as THEMSELVES. That's what you seem to be doing above - saying your soul can go to hell for all you care.

Originally posted by Taunos
reply to post by logical7

 

Jesus does not nee d to rebirth, you see. He achieved what we want to achieve a pure and clean state that I could never describe. And by the books presented in the Spiritism doctrine every world has a ruler (not our usual view of a ruler, but a true love and caring one) and for Earth Jesus is that! He take care of all of us.

I know that might go against your beliefs, but that is what is presented. All prophets and saviors that arrived before him were like points of light in a dark world preparing his arrival. I do not want to go into that discussion because it can go against other members beliefs. Just to try to explain the idea that Jesus does not need to reincarnate he is like an older brother teaching us the path he once walked.

thanks a lot, i also read your previous post and spiritism seems like a budding organised religion or a sect in christianity.
Its just interesting and overwhelming a bit to know all these different beliefs.

Just posting a link to a move named Astral City - A Spiritual Journey. Actually, the name of this film in Portuguese is "Nosso Lar" (that means "Our Home"). "Nosso Lar" is one of the many Spiritual cities (this one is located above the Rio de Janeiro city). This movie presents a lot more into the redemption process and how a after life looks like, the book is far more complete but this movie is a great start. Hope you guys enjoy it.

Astral City - A spiritual jorney

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

i just twised the analogy to show you the demand of the Source to cuddle with just perfected souls.

I'm having trouble understanding your point.

I come with NO MEMORY because i dont have one from past life,

not consciously, no. Few people do. That doesn't mean your higher self - your soul - doesn't remember. That's what I refer to as the "indwelling Spirit" - that spark in all of us that talks to our gut

and if i dont need to know as my soul is just better and knows it and goes and thinks about it only after leaving me then for all that i care my soul can go to hell! Literally and figuratively.

Okay, well, my soul yearns for peace and love; where did that yearning come from?
I am wondering now: What your age is - what your native language is - and whether you were born into Islam? Or if you adopted it as a choice you thought through carefully?

I am just a vehicle or as hindus say a change of clothes, almost makes me feel my soul is a parasite. Because am i logical7 or a blacksmith who lived in 750AD!! If the soul will just learn anyway then why do i care, why dont i just do my things, i dont need to be good, do i?

Have you ever suffered, log7, really, truly suffered - endured despair, or heartache, or lost a loved one?
Would you wish those incredibly painful experiences on anyone else?

Has any other person ever broken your heart - or lied to you, deceived you when you trusted them? Abandoned you with no farewell or apology?

For me, "being good" allows me peace of mind. When I've been hurt, or hurt others, I am uncomfortable -- and that pain, regret, loss - consequences of mistakes - is enough of a negative to keep me from doing so.

We all make mistakes in judgment - we all do things without thinking them through, or seeing the consequences before it's too late.

Also, regarding your thoughts about Jesus and karma - he doesn't have to "come back" - none of us do once we've reached the stage of compassion and love for all life....THEN we are ready to not HAVE to come back and suffer again.

Anyone who would believe in reincarnation -- in inevitable karmic debt or reward -- and then just do "whatever" without regard to how it affects others, or will affect their own future -- is wishing pain and hell upon OTHERS as well as THEMSELVES. That's what you seem to be doing above - saying your soul can go to hell for all you care.

got it!! And thanx. Ya its pretty impossible to do what i want if it hurts others. Dint think that.
About the analogy, i just meant that why would God want perfection from each before letting the soul join Him, cuddling as analogy for joining.
A parent will cuddle just for a try not wait till perfection is achieve.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Taunos
reply to post by logical7

 

Jesus does not nee d to rebirth, you see. He achieved what we want to achieve a pure and clean state that I could never describe. And by the books presented in the Spiritism doctrine every world has a ruler (not our usual view of a ruler, but a true love and caring one) and for Earth Jesus is that! He take care of all of us.

I know that might go against your beliefs, but that is what is presented. All prophets and saviors that arrived before him were like points of light in a dark world preparing his arrival. I do not want to go into that discussion because it can go against other members beliefs. Just to try to explain the idea that Jesus does not need to reincarnate he is like an older brother teaching us the path he once walked.

thanks a lot, i also read your previous post and spiritism seems like a budding organised religion or a sect in christianity.
Its just interesting and overwhelming a bit to know all these different beliefs.

I also thank you for keeping an open mind. I really enjoy discussing some of these topics and reading all the different beliefs - you see I share an apartment with 2 friends and we all have different views (all different religions) and we never fought or had an argument about those things.

I think almost all religions in the world have some base in Buddhism, the teachings are the same it is just how things are present that are different, but the essence is the same. Spiritism is a Christian doctrine, but far different from the other Christian religions regarding the respect to every person beliefs. The main focus of the doctrine is the charity ("There is no salvation out of charity") and not the religion itself.

Originally posted by logical7

got it!! And thanx. Ya its pretty impossible to do what i want if it hurts others. Dint think that.
About the analogy, i just meant that why would God want perfection from each before letting the soul join Him, cuddling as analogy for joining.
A parent will cuddle just for a try not wait till perfection is achieve.

God cuddle us at every step towards the right direction, we are the ones that doesn't notice His hugs. The ultimate goal is something that no religion will be able to explain (that is my own opinion), we are heirs of God and if he created the universe, someday, when we are ready, we will be able to make use of all amazing gifts we cannot understand now.

I think we are really small compared to the infinite and far young to grasp the big picture. It is a long road and it starts by accepting and loving all our brothers. And that already is a huge task (just see the mess the world is today).

I know I am late to this discussion, but here is my two cents. Consider that there is only the one creator and we are a part of IT. Consider that all that exists is the NOW. Consider that our purpose in life is to gain experiences of EVERYTHING to bring back to the creator. Consider the everything is literally everything... That being said reincarnation is about you being everything and everybody right now. When I look into your face, I see me there. I am not only my brother's keeper- I am my brother. Reincarnation is not about coming back, it's about learning that you are me and I am you right here right now. Right now I am me but I am also right now a young man in China 500 years ago and I am a scientist 250 years in the "future" and I am that homeless man you just walked around and didn't help...I am also you right now reading this.

Originally posted by Taunos

Originally posted by logical7

got it!! And thanx. Ya its pretty impossible to do what i want if it hurts others. Dint think that.
About the analogy, i just meant that why would God want perfection from each before letting the soul join Him, cuddling as analogy for joining.
A parent will cuddle just for a try not wait till perfection is achieve.

God cuddle us at every step towards the right direction, we are the ones that doesn't notice His hugs. The ultimate goal is something that no religion will be able to explain (that is my own opinion), we are heirs of God and if he created the universe, someday, when we are ready, we will be able to make use of all amazing gifts we cannot understand now.

I think we are really small compared to the infinite and far young to grasp the big picture. It is a long road and it starts by accepting and loving all our brothers. And that already is a huge task (just see the mess the world is today).

edit on 2-1-2013 by Taunos because: grammar

you picked the word "cuddle" and missed what i meant.
Does God demand perfection from each soul?

reply to post by summerbreeze.ddp

Welcome; no worries that you're "late" - we're still discussing actively...
your points are very valid, and appreciated....

Compassion, and realizing we are all ONE....is golden.

reply to post by logical7

Does God demand perfection from each soul?

No. "Perfection" is the Creation itself...and we are part of it....
But you are thinking of "God" as a person and judge. I don't subscribe to that personified image. See summerbreeze's post above yours...

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Klassified

 

Reincarnation, in and of itself, is not a religion. It is attached to other religions and philosophies. Still, your main point is valid. Reincarnation, by itself, is not necessarily a motivator for people to do or be good. I get it. But then, what religion, belief, or philosophy is?

thanks. I do believe that reward and punishment philosophy fits the best, we live our whole life by it, how can we deny it??
It hasnt been proven wrong once!!
If we use reincarnation like philosophy on criminals, just imagine the outcome.

I can only speak for myself, but to me, the reward and punishment system is majorly flawed as much as any other. It seeks to correct(punish) first and foremost, and seeks to give understanding only to the effect that it motivates you by fear to do well. That is a flawed philosophy to me, and proves that it is a concoction of man, and not an omniscient supreme being.

By using a reward and punishment system for the whole of a persons life, you keep them fearful, as well as morally and spiritually bankrupt, and stunt their growth as an individual, and indeed, you stunt the growth of a species.

There is plenty of evidence that the reward and punishment system does not work. All one has to do is observe our world, and our leaders.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Does God demand perfection from each soul?

No. "Perfection" is the Creation itself...and we are part of it....
But you are thinking of "God" as a person and judge. I don't subscribe to that personified image. See summerbreeze's post above yours...

I agree, we cannot picture God the same as we see ourselves. We are far from being able to understand His purposes, but in its infinite wisdom I believe that the creation is perfect.

It is hard for us to imagine a perfect being since we can only base ourselves on the things we see in this world. I think that's where the term "act of faith" apply. We are not ready to understand all the truth.

Originally posted by Klassified

There is plenty of evidence that the reward and punishment system does not work. All one has to do is observe our world, and our leaders.

I could say plenty in a response to your post, but it would be off topic for this thread. But I do want to say, Yes, all one has to do is observe what has happened to the U.S. since "they" took God out of the schools, made it illegal to post the Ten Commandments in the court houses, etc. This country has been going downhill at an extremely fast pace since God has been removed!

All one has to do is Observe our world, and our leaders.

Originally posted by sled735

Originally posted by Klassified

There is plenty of evidence that the reward and punishment system does not work. All one has to do is observe our world, and our leaders.

I could say plenty in a response to your post, but it would be off topic for this thread. But I do want to say, Yes, all one has to do is observe what has happened to the U.S. since "they" took God out of the schools, made it illegal to post the Ten Commandments in the court houses, etc. This country has been going downhill at an extremely fast pace since God has been removed!

All one has to do is Observe our world, and our leaders.

Then we'll save it for another time, sir.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
Lets just say im playing on what you know of Gnostic scripture...

The Gospel of John was written, in part, as a response to a very early heresy, Ebionism, which came from a group of Jewish-Christians who dismissed the divine side of Jesus, thinking him to be the Messiah, but fully human. John needs to be read with that kept in mind, because unlike the Synoptic Gospels, the final Gospel was written in a different time, in the full knowledge of how the other three were accepted and being used (and misused) and with a mission of clarifying things that those books left a bit wider interpretation of.

As far as I've read... the Ebionites were more of a jewish based sect... not Gnostic...

They held strictly to the law of moses even claiming that "gentiles" must also observe said law...

So I don't see what that has to do with the verse I offered... considering the gnostics were very anti-jewish

reply to post by Deetermined

Wait! Didn't Yahweh say he was the one that was pierced? Hmmmm.....

No....Zechariah said it

So, if John is really Elijah (as you say),

Uhh... Jesus said it, not me.... Im still waiting on the gospel according to Akragon to be published...

could it be that Jesus is really Yahweh?

Nope...

The Father sent him to the physical world....As he said

Jesus did not send himself...

Maybe they both changed their "manner of spirit".

But your bible says God doesn't change...

This imposter isn't the true God... he/she/it changes erratically to suit its own needs and wants.

IT is a jealous entity... because it knows there are other Lesser Gods like him...

The true God is not Jealous... because there are none that can come close him in comparison.

Originally posted by Akragon
So I don't see what that has to do with the verse I offered... considering the gnostics were very anti-jewish

Again, John is writing, in part, to refute the beliefs of those who believed Christ to be completely "material" -- not divine at all. So, if a person doesn't keep that in mind, they might come to the conclusion that John is espousing Gnostic beliefs. John has a balanced view of Christ, neither Ebionite nor Gnostic, but when compared to the Synoptic Gospels, he may come off as more "Christ is all about the spiritual" than he actually is.

reply to post by wildtimes


"we've been there and done that before"
That pretty much sums up reincarnation.

OP, I just want to say I am enjoying this thread. Hats off to all who are posting.

I am here to learn all I can about this topic. I don't feel I am knowledgeable enough to debate in the thread.
However, I will say I think reincarnation makes a lot of sense to me.

I also want to thank the member who linked the PDF for Spiritism.

Keep it coming!

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
So I don't see what that has to do with the verse I offered... considering the gnostics were very anti-jewish

Again, John is writing, in part, to refute the beliefs of those who believed Christ to be completely "material" -- not divine at all. So, if a person doesn't keep that in mind, they might come to the conclusion that John is espousing Gnostic beliefs. John has a balanced view of Christ, neither Ebionite nor Gnostic, but when compared to the Synoptic Gospels, he may come off as more "Christ is all about the spiritual" than he actually is.

I think I see the confusion here...

This is basically your way of dismissing a "gnostic" book...

But since I am not gnostic or Christian I don't just reject an entire series of books based on a label...

IF john wrote his gospel to dismiss gnostic scripture (even in part) I would assume there would be nothing that relates to gnostic scripture within his book... but there are plenty of similarities...

this will lead to the argument that the gnostics "stole" certain parts of the gospels to suit their own beliefs... which gives their scripture a "sinister" slant... yet there are some that claim that Thomas might have been written before any of the gospels within the canon of the church... I've read some scholars even place that book as early as 50ad.

IF one takes that into consideration... I think its quite possible the idea of reincarnation was edited out of the gospels we have presently... but the editors missed some things that can only be found with a deeper understanding of said book.

Just a theory