Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Taunos

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Interesting. So, the blind don't see in dreams, but in NDEs they do. What do you make of that?

dint you miss the point? A blind man this time wouldnt be blind in all previous lives, so while dreaming why not see things known/seen from past lives?

To be able to see things even while you dream your brain must be able to integrate the images. Even if you saw things in your past lives, your brain while sleeping wouldn't be able to generate those images that's why people that goes blind before 5 years old can't see even if they receive surgery (it is part of the body growing process). Even if you think in out-of-body situations the limitations of the current incarnation applies.

so dreaming is not in any way related to soul?
And how you explain NDE's in blind? How they process images, if only their soul went throught that experience?

I didn't say that dreaming was not related to the soul, but we are bound to a body that uses image processing and biologic functions. I'm no expert in this and I'm telling you my view regarding this matter only. Some situations are more constrained I believe, I can only guess like everyone else

But I'll try to find an answer with some more capable people!

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Thanks!

That should keep me busy for a while.

You're welcome. There isn't a whole lot there, and their views of the afterlife aren't particularly interesting, because they didn't think that there was one. The soul wasn't immortal, so when you died, that was it, oblivion.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

Here's what Jesus said about his own message...

Luke 24:44-45

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

By the way, Zechariah was one of those prophets.

edit on 2-1-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

That's great!

Lets see what else he said....

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Notice he did not say "some" that came before me.... or even most that came before me...

HE said ALL that came before me were thieves and robbers... Who came to kill and destroy.... Exactly like the OT God

By the way, Zechariah was one of those people that came before him... obviously

reply to post by Deetermined

Let's take a look at that again...

Exodus 3:2-6

2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

*sigh*

IF we must.... Notice "the angel of the lord" was changed to God?

And why did Moses call this angel God?

And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God

That's right... fear... which that religion prays on... always has always will...

Now, here's what Jesus had to say about that...

Mark 12:24-27

24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Glad you brought this passage up...

Read it closely...

have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush "God" spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Now at this time when Jesus said this... was Abraham, Isaac, an Jacob alive or dead?

Dead.... that's right... and what was the next verse?

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

So as I previously stated.... The true God is NOT the God of the OT... NOT the God of the dead... NOT the God of this world.... NOT the God of Fear and strife...

The God of the living...

Even paul got that one wrong...

What else did Jesus say about the "God of the living"?

Lots... but that verse you provided has nothing to do with anything being discussed here...

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Ok maybe we're all confuzzed here....

Do you believe its possible that john believed in reincarnation, considering the extreme parallels with his gospel and the gospel of Thomas, which fully supports the idea?

No, I do not think that John believed in reincarnation.

Parallels between John and Thomas are attributable to both authors using a common source for some sayings (there is some commonality between the Synoptic Gospels and Thomas, as well, for the same reason) and an overall thematic similarity, as I expressed earlier.

John is fully onboard with the concept of resurrection, which was in congruence with orthodox Judaism. The Sadducees didn't believe in resurrection, but they didn't believe in reincarnation, either. The Gnostics believed in reincarnation, for the partially enlightened, and hated the concept of resurrection, as it is presented in the New Testament (see The Treatise on the Resurrection.)

edit on 3-1-2013 by adjensen because: (no reason given)

Alright fair enough....

Another question if you will...

Do you plan on going to heaven when you pass?

IF so... how do you expect to get there if you haven't been already?

Please refer to the passage I asked your opinion of on a previous page... John 3

Originally posted by Taunos
reply to post by wildtimes

 

I tried to look for an English version of the books, but apparently they are in the process of translation (I believe there is a French version). Anyways, I'm posting the pdf in Portuguese so you can use a translator on some of the interesting parts (try translating the index and going from there - hopefully you will be able to get a decent translation from google). I can try to help if you have issues with the translation or something.

Exiled from Capella

The second book is "In Curtain of Time", but I only found a 4shared link so my apologies for that.
In Curtain of Time

The third one I'll have to look further. Can't seem to find a pdf version

Oh Boy! Oh Boy! Oh Boy!!!!!!
More good reading! I am also interested in the ET factor with our ancestors.

I've also watched videos by Deloris Cannon, and I even have friends who have been in contact with these beings/spirits.
I can't wait to read this! I'm on page 125 of the PDF on Spiritism. I still have a lot left to read. I'm finding it very interesting, and helpful in my understanding of things.

I'm so happy you came along, Taunos. I know you are not here "by accident".

reply to post by Akragon

Do you plan on going to heaven when you pass? IF so... how do you expect to get there if you haven't been already?

I'm sure that Adjensen will "remember" the way home, no problem.

Here's some stuff I found on the Hebrew belief in the pre-existence of the soul, and reincarnation. If some of this has already been posted, forgive me for the redundancy.

According to The Book of Jubilees, Chapter 2 verse 2, GOD created all the spirit of all the creatures, which are in heaven and on the earth, during the first day of creation.

For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer

and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth,

(He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide and night, and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart.
www.pseudepigrapha.com...

“As a child I was by nature well endowed, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body.” (The Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20)

Proverbs 8
“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

So pre-existence of the soul was a common belief among early Hebrews. Apparently, during the time of Jesus, it was still widely believed, along with some form of reincarnation..

John 9:2
And his disciples asked him, saying, Teacher, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Originally posted by Akragon
Do you plan on going to heaven when you pass?

IF so... how do you expect to get there if you haven't been already?

Without being too sappy...

I will have a beautiful woman named Patti, age 46, to bring me there.

Oh, Poop! I can't read Portuguese, and my translator isn't working on the PDF! What a let-down! Sigh....

Please let us know when this is ready in the English version.

Thanks

Originally posted by windword
So pre-existence of the soul was a common belief among early Hebrews. Apparently, during the time of Jesus, it was still widely believed, along with some form of reincarnation..

Pre-existence of the soul is still a Jewish belief, as well as Islamic and Mormon. I don't know why it fell off the Christian map and, like I said, I have no opinion on it.

Reincarnation, though, was only a belief of a small number of Jewish mystics. Orthodox Judaism, which would include Jesus, the Apostles and most of the characters in the Bible (Old and New Testament) did not have a belief in it and most would probably not even have known what it meant.

reply to post by sled735


Hi sled735, I'm glad you are having a good time

It's interesting, I always read through the forums and this is the first thread I try to contribute and I'm glad you guys are enjoying it. I'm also amazed by the different beliefs and the high level of this discussion, most of the members are so well educated and polite.

I don't believe in chance, so I think we are all here for a reason

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
Do you plan on going to heaven when you pass?

IF so... how do you expect to get there if you haven't been already?

Without being too sappy...

I will have a beautiful woman named Patti, age 46, to bring me there.

That made me smile... and you are right!

And you KNOW she is there!! And she has been there before...

read this passage knowing she is there...

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Originally posted by sled735
Oh, Poop! I can't read Portuguese, and my translator isn't working on the PDF! What a let-down! Sigh....

Please let us know when this is ready in the English version.

Thanks

No problem sled, it is a shame I could not find an English version. I thought that you could maybe get some information using the google translator, maybe translate the index and go from there to your topics of interest

I'll post any info I can find regarding an English version

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
Do you plan on going to heaven when you pass?

IF so... how do you expect to get there if you haven't been already?

Without being too sappy...

I will have a beautiful woman named Patti, age 46, to bring me there.

That made me smile... and you are right!

And you KNOW she is there!! And she has been there before...

read this passage knowing she is there...

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Really like your posts Akragon

reply to post by adjensen

Reincarnation, though, was only a belief of a small number of Jewish mystics. Orthodox Judaism, which would include Jesus, the Apostles and most of the characters in the Bible (Old and New Testament) did not have a belief in it and most would probably not even have known what it meant.

I would disagree with you that Jesus was "Orthodox" in his teachings and actions. If he was, he wouldn't have blown the Pharisee's minds. Nicodemus was a Pharisee.

I also disagree that the concept of reincarnation was foreign to Jesus. Refer to the question asked of him about the man born blind.

Originally posted by windword
Reincarnation, though, was only a belief of a small number of Jewish mystics. Orthodox Judaism, which would include Jesus, the Apostles and most of the characters in the Bible (Old and New Testament) did not have a belief in it and most would probably not even have known what it meant.

I would disagree with you that Jesus was "Orthodox" in his teachings and actions. If he was, he wouldn't have blown the Pharisee's minds. Nicodemus was a Pharisee.

I don't know that he "blew anyone's mind" -- he was teaching them that living by the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law, was wrong. He was very orthodox, or he would't have been allowed to teach in the synagogue.

I also disagree that the concept of reincarnation was foreign to Jesus. Refer to the question asked of him about the man born blind.

What, this?

John 9:2
And his disciples asked him, saying, Teacher, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

In Jewish culture, blindness was considered to be a curse, rather than a deformity, so the Apostles were asking whether it was him or his parents that had brought the "curse" upon him. Because God was omniscient, he knew everything you would do before you did it (see Psalm 139) so "cursing" him at birth for his later actions was something that they believed would happen.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
Reincarnation, though, was only a belief of a small number of Jewish mystics. Orthodox Judaism, which would include Jesus, the Apostles and most of the characters in the Bible (Old and New Testament) did not have a belief in it and most would probably not even have known what it meant.

I would disagree with you that Jesus was "Orthodox" in his teachings and actions. If he was, he wouldn't have blown the Pharisee's minds. Nicodemus was a Pharisee.

I don't know that he "blew anyone's mind" -- he was teaching them that living by the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law, was wrong. He was very orthodox, or he would't have been allowed to teach in the synagogue.

I also disagree that the concept of reincarnation was foreign to Jesus. Refer to the question asked of him about the man born blind.

What, this?

John 9:2
And his disciples asked him, saying, Teacher, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

In Jewish culture, blindness was considered to be a curse, rather than a deformity, so the Apostles were asking whether it was him or his parents that had brought the "curse" upon him. Because God was omniscient, he knew everything you would do before you did it (see Psalm 139) so "cursing" him at birth for his later actions was something that they believed would happen.

edit on 3-1-2013 by adjensen because: tag repair

It is apparent that the Apostles had an incomplete understanding of how God does what he does, or how what has been set in motion by God, plays out...

All questions that relate to 'being cursed at birth' show a misunderstanding of the mechanisms that operate through us/with us/by us...that are misunderstood by many...

A99

Originally posted by akushla99
It is apparent that the Apostles had an incomplete understanding of how God does what he does, or how what has been set in motion by God, plays out...

All questions that relate to 'being cursed at birth' show a misunderstanding of the mechanisms that operate through us/with us/by us...that are misunderstood by many...

As I said, that was the cultural impression that the Jewish people of that time held. It wasn't unique to the Apostles, and isn't held today (so far as I know.)

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Mindless1980

 

I haven't read all the PDF yet. But, I'm wondering if there is anything regarding the ETs in it?

It does speak of many habitable worlds where humans live;
some with more highly evolved souls;

I suppose this could be considered ETs, yes.

THE DIFFERENT STATES OF THE SOUL IN ITS SPIRITUAL
WANDERINGS
2. The house of the Father is the Universe. The 'different mansions' are the worlds which
circulate in infinite space and offer the Spirits who incarnate on them dwelling places which
correspond their progress.
Independently from the diversity of the different worlds, the words of Jesus also refer to the
fortunate or wretched states of the soul in the spirit world. Conforming to whether the soul is more
or less purified and detached from material lies, the ambient in which it finds itself will vary
infinitely: in the aspects of things, in the sensations it feels and in the perceptions it has. While
some cannot leave the ambient where they live, others raise themselves and travel all over space
and the other worlds.

That's in chapter 3 of the PDF.

Thank you, Wildtimes. I was expecting some ridicule, but I see there is some information about it. That's wonderful!
My time is limited on ATS due to taking online college courses. I do hope to get time to read the PDF entirely someday. What I have read thus far is very interesting.

Thank you again for rehashing this topic.

Originally posted by Taunos
reply to post by Mindless1980

 

Like wildtimes said, there are some information regarding different worlds. There is a book currently being translated to English that deals only with the planetary transitions (which is also the name of the book). It fascinates me, the idea of evolved spirits from other worlds reincarnate here on Earth to help our development.

There are a lot of information regarding old times, mainly explaining Human Spiritual History. In a book called Exlied from Capella (which is the brightest star in the constellation Auriga), some description is presented of how these spirits from that constellation (more advanced than us) came to an undeveloped world to atone for their own problems and to help our development. You see their world already went through the process of regeneration and those who failed to progress had to keep their paths in a lower world (in this case, our world). That happened during the Egypt civilization and that's one of the explanations for their amazing intelligence and knowledge.

It is all related to the moral evolution, those who came to Earth failed to evolve. By reincarnating on this planet they started the civilizational evolution of man (around 5000 years ago) through many life cycles. Due their high knowledge degree they exalted in the fields of mathematics, astronomy, architecture, navigation, agronomy and others. Like I said, some of their works are the pyramids, the hanging gardens of Babylon, Mayan and Aztec construction, and many others.

After that "mission" most of those spirits went back to their own place, a fulfilled job and higher soul state. Actually there are 3 books approaching the subject.

edit on 3-1-2013 by Taunos because: FIlling with more information

Thank you, Taunos.

I truly appreciate you taking time to explain this to me. I look forward to reading the book.