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Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

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posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 07:21 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."


1 Corinthians 15:45-49 (MSG)

45-49 We follow this sequence in Scripture: The First Adam received life, the Last Adam is a life-giving Spirit. Physical life comes first, then spiritual—a firm base shaped from the earth, a final completion coming out of heaven. The First Man was made out of earth, and people since then are earthy; the Second Man was made out of heaven, and people now can be heavenly. In the same way that we’ve worked from our earthy origins, let’s embrace our heavenly ends.




posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 07:29 AM
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reply to post by Taunos
 


I read the first 50 pages last night. Very interesting. So far, it sounds about like Christianity, except with the teaching of reincarnation. I'll read it in its entirety before I post any thoughts.

Thanks again.



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 07:35 AM
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reply to post by sled735
 


Yes Spiritism is a Christian religion, the ideas are the same and all the bible passages are used, but a different interpretation is presented, instead of allegories an actual explanation is given. I'm glad you are enjoying it.



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 07:51 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Deetermined
 



So, in essence, the "manner of spirit" in which John was supposed to work was different from the manner of spirit in which Elijah was sent to work.


Kinda like the manor of spirit in which Jesus worked.... was completely different from the manor of spirit found in the so called God of the OT?

Perhaps john was the same spirit as Elijah, but he realised the first time around he was working for an imposter?

Ye think?



Just out of curiosity, does that make both Elijah and John impostors too, since John quoted Yahweh?

Yahweh speaking in Zechariah 12:10...

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John speaking about Jesus, but quoting Yahweh in John 19:34-37...

34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Wait! Didn't Yahweh say he was the one that was pierced? Hmmmm.....

So, if John is really Elijah (as you say), could it be that Jesus is really Yahweh?

Maybe they both changed their "manner of spirit".





edit on 2-1-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes

reply to post by logical7

 



true but reincarnation does allow to delay making ammends and reforms, "whats the hurry" and what i believe is that if a belief doesnt influence behaviour and actions then its not a belief just an interesting hobby.

And reincarnation actually when put in behaviour encourages passiveness!!



No, it doesn't.



It encourages virtue - because if you know you will be held accountable (just like with Abrahamic 'Day of Judgment') you are less likely to be destructive.

There's no reason for "eternal torture" - we are all capable of learning. Why would "God" impose an "eternal" life-sentence of torture if he knows we can do better? And if WE know we can do better -



If every toddler who falls over learning to walk has - as punishment - their legs amputated by their parents, what the hell good does that do?? NOTHING! It results only in a bunch of legless toddlers. Can you see??



If you told the child "walk correctly the first time, or I will cut your legs off!", don't you think someone would swoop in and snatch that child away from you so that he or she had at least a CHANCE?






edit on 1-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)


And if we can do better then why not do it 1st time?

Other part, what if God knows and proving it once is enough as a second chance without memory will end up the same and with memory is just too obvious.

And its not about doing everything correctly/perfectly. Its about trying. .

in your analogy you are saying that if a child fails, the parents give another chance and if the child raises arms towards them they just wait, no cuddling till he/she learns to walk OR after the first try they pick up and cuddle and tell him/her that he/she did wonderfully? The latter is my belief. Its not perfection, its trying and acknowledging the Creator.



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


in your analogy you are saying that if a child fails, the parents give another chance and if the child raises arms towards them they just wait, no cuddling till he/she learns to walk OR after the first try they pick up and cuddle and tell him/her that he/she did wonderfully?

I didn't say anything about no cuddling, just waiting.....!!!
I don't know why you you took a perfectly illustrative analogy and twisted it into something else.

I was using it as an example for how short one body-lifetime is compared to a soul's

WHERE do you keep coming up with NO MEMORY?



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
Lets just say im playing on what you know of Gnostic scripture...

The Gospel of John was written, in part, as a response to a very early heresy, Ebionism, which came from a group of Jewish-Christians who dismissed the divine side of Jesus, thinking him to be the Messiah, but fully human. John needs to be read with that kept in mind, because unlike the Synoptic Gospels, the final Gospel was written in a different time, in the full knowledge of how the other three were accepted and being used (and misused) and with a mission of clarifying things that those books left a bit wider interpretation of.



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon
 





Do you believe starving children choose their existence? Obviously not.... but either God is a cruel bastard (like the OT shows) or these people have been given what they've created... Even as it says in the bible... you get what you give and the world is messed up and has been since it started... Its the only logical way

you means starving children deserve what they get? That doesnt feel good.
So in a way making someone suffer in hell is cruel of God but suffering here birth after birth is ok as "you get what you give"!!!


Show me one person in history that hasn't suffered in this life?

We're born into a chaotic realm that is based on decay and death... IF the spirit is eternal, it is not based on the same principals of this world.

Hell from a Christian perspective is based on this world... Where your "body" is tossed into a firey pit of torment and despair, even the word "hell" or Gehenna is based on a real physical place

A loving Father would NEVER subject his children to torture... but if you make this "kingdom" hell so to speak... you will get what you have given, in this life or the next...

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and Blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



i dint get your point.
I had asked, how it matters if its either suffering life after life or just in hell?
Let me give an example, reincarnation says we learn and go higher at each birth, does that mean we suffer lesser each step up?
Because if the idea is to reach enlightment like Jesus pbuh, he actually suffered more after reaching higher level.
So what i get is, first i suffer and my soul learns(i am not told what) then after a lot of trial and errors and sufferings i get insights and get enlightened and then i suffer more to help others??
And that much sufferings to a good guy like me??
.
So in this theory everyone suffers, bad guys for karma, good for being good.
And a curious question about Jesus pbuh suffering that much, i dont at all believe that it was his karma. Then how he gets paid back in next birth? He forgave the people who did it, so they dont obviously suffer the karma. but how he gets rewarded?



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 08:38 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


I understand your way of thinking, but Jesus did not have anything to atone. His return was a different story, in a time of great need and darkness, when all moral was corrupted and distorted. A change was needed.

His suffering was caused by us and even in such great pain He asked our Father to forgive us, because we did not knew what we were doing. By returning Jesus gave another meaning to all lives, He presented Gods teachings of love and charity. We cannot compare our life cycles of reincarnation to that particular case, Jesus did not reincarnated to amend past actions.
edit on 2-1-2013 by Taunos because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 08:57 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 





The mechanism of reincarnation is a set 'piece'...whether a person 'indulges' in it, or disbelieves it, is irrelevant...

maybe i dont get you, but are you saying that reincarnation is a "fact" just like a christian says that Jesus pbuh is the only way?
And you actually used the example of a one-legged four years old, orphaned, uneducated, starving boy going to christian hell to show the error of such certainty??!
But ok, to answer your question, it doesnt hurt me to be a muslim and believe what i believe, if i am right its great, if not then reincarnation is all about second chances as you said that it doesnt matter if i disbelieve it, its a "set"piece.
I am at the safest position!!



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Klassified
 





What I see is active personal responsibility for growth in their lives, and a desire for peace in the world that they actively participate in bringing about. I don't see any of that among the the big three. What I see is strife, division, hatred, inequality, and death.

i see the former in the big three too and later in people who believe in reincarnation. If 800 million hindus followed what the philosophies taught, wouldnt india be an example to prove how good belief in reincarnation is?
India is known for recent genocide of muslims, one of the most corrupted countries, female foeticide, dowry deaths, no sense of personal responsibility and a declining moral sense. Fruits of reincarnation theory or no blame on it?


Excellent points concerning the Hindu government and religion as a whole. But in my opinion, Hinduism may be the worst example on earth of the belief in reincarnation. Reincarnation is but one facet of their belief system. There are many other tenets involved, such as a caste system, and so on.

Reincarnation, in and of itself, is not a religion. It is attached to other religions and philosophies. Still, your main point is valid. Reincarnation, by itself, is not necessarily a motivator for people to do or be good. I get it.

But then, what religion, belief, or philosophy is? I am quite comfortable being an atheist. I feel freer than I ever have in my life, and I care more for my fellow human beings now, than I ever did as a Christian.



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by Taunos
reply to post by logical7
 


Hi logical7. Just trying to approach your other reply also, the idea of a ignorant soul is related to a clean state. In my beliefs (according to spiritism) all souls in this world already had some past lives, there are different worlds with different levels of evolution. Considering this you will eventually meet people with different levels regarding their moral progress.

Now approaching the quoted text. All my information comes from books and some years of study, as I said in some other post, the only dogma in the Spiritism doctrine is the reincarnation, so you can understand why it is such a major issue. Most of the books, like the Gopel According to Spiritism, The Spirits Book and some others try to explain how life goes on after this life, and how these life cycles help us to evolve and grow towards something good.

All I'm saying here is just a really small part of what is written, the idea is far more complex and important. You can start thinking about premature deaths, suicides and a lot of other variables and I can say that every and each one of them are explained and detailed. The books are not restricted to the reincarnation, since it is only a part of the evolution process.
edit on 2-1-2013 by Taunos because: (no reason given)

thanks to explain it a bit to me, i'l read up about it more. But who came wìth these ideas? Especially other worlds, stages, levels etc and how do i just take them as true?



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by Taunos
reply to post by logical7
 


I understand your way of thinking, but Jesus did not have anything to atone. His return was a different story, in a time of great need and darkness, when all moral was corrupted and distorted. A change was needed.

His suffering was caused by us and even in such great pain He asked our Father to forgive us, because we did not knew what we were doing. By returning Jesus gave another meaning to all lives, He presented Gods teachings of love and charity. We cannot compare our life cycles of reincarnation to that particular case, Jesus did not reincarnated to amend past actions.
edit on 2-1-2013 by Taunos because: (no reason given)

i said just that, i dont believe he came to suffer for past sins.
But ya, we were not the ones whom he forgave, we dint try to kill him. Its not the topic, i asked what reward he will get karmically in next rebirth? What matches to pay what he went through. Rule the world at least. Dont you think?



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 09:12 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



thanks to explain it a bit to me, i'l read up about it more. But who came wìth these ideas? Especially other worlds, stages, levels etc and how do i just take them as true?

You don't. Only you can decide that. Reincarnation is just like any thing else man has come up with to explain life. It's subjective, and only you can choose to give it validity in your life. It may, or may not be true, or partially true. just like all the rest.



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7
 


in your analogy you are saying that if a child fails, the parents give another chance and if the child raises arms towards them they just wait, no cuddling till he/she learns to walk OR after the first try they pick up and cuddle and tell him/her that he/she did wonderfully?

I didn't say anything about no cuddling, just waiting.....!!!
I don't know why you you took a perfectly illustrative analogy and twisted it into something else.

I was using it as an example for how short one body-lifetime is compared to a soul's

WHERE do you keep coming up with NO MEMORY?




i just twised the analogy to show you the demand of the Source to cuddle with just perfected souls.
I come with NO MEMORY because i dont have one from past life, and if i dont need to know as my soul is just better and knows it and goes and thinks about it only after leaving me then for all that i care my soul can go to hell! Literally and figuratively.
I am just a vehicle or as hindus say a change of clothes, almost makes me feel my soul is a parasite. Because am i logical7 or a blacksmith who lived in 750AD!! If the soul will just learn anyway then why do i care, why dont i just do my things, i dont need to be good, do i?



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 09:25 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


These ideas are presented by the higher spirits themselves. The majority of the books in the Spiritism doctrine are presented by some Spiritual guidance, either by intuition or psychography (do you know Chico Xavier?). In the gospel most of the Bible passages are explained through a set of instructions explained by a higher spirit with absolute and pure moral, these instructions are presented in order to dismiss all allegories presented in the old writings (what was needed at those times of low development, but are not needed now).

Some books also mention the Al-Qur'an (sorry if my spelling is wrong), since all of us share the same Spiritual world and we all work together at the other side, but as I said all is explained in a rational and scientific way. All books are thoroughly verified by authorities (like FEB - Brazilian Spiritsm Federation, there are some of those authorities in the US but I don't know all the names). This verification try to avoid fake interpretations, misconceptions and etc all to keep the doctrine as clear as possible.

I just want to say that I respect every form of religion or belief. In my opinion, what really matters is the person and the acts this one do, no one will judge you by your beliefs when you pass but they will question what you bring inside your heart.



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 09:34 AM
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reply to post by Klassified
 





Reincarnation, in and of itself, is not a religion. It is attached to other religions and philosophies. Still, your main point is valid. Reincarnation, by itself, is not necessarily a motivator for people to do or be good. I get it. But then, what religion, belief, or philosophy is?

thanks. I do believe that reward and punishment philosophy fits the best, we live our whole life by it, how can we deny it??
It hasnt been proven wrong once!!
If we use reincarnation like philosophy on criminals, just imagine the outcome.



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


Jesus does not nee d to rebirth, you see. He achieved what we want to achieve a pure and clean state that I could never describe. And by the books presented in the Spiritism doctrine every world has a ruler (not our usual view of a ruler, but a true love and caring one) and for Earth Jesus is that! He take care of all of us.

I know that might go against your beliefs, but that is what is presented. All prophets and saviors that arrived before him were like points of light in a dark world preparing his arrival. I do not want to go into that discussion because it can go against other members beliefs. Just to try to explain the idea that Jesus does not need to reincarnate he is like an older brother teaching us the path he once walked.



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Klassified
 





Reincarnation, in and of itself, is not a religion. It is attached to other religions and philosophies. Still, your main point is valid. Reincarnation, by itself, is not necessarily a motivator for people to do or be good. I get it. But then, what religion, belief, or philosophy is?

thanks. I do believe that reward and punishment philosophy fits the best, we live our whole life by it, how can we deny it??
It hasnt been proven wrong once!!
If we use reincarnation like philosophy on criminals, just imagine the outcome.


Indeed the action and reation, reward and punishment ideas are presented in the Spiritsm. Reincarnation is just part of a far more complex process. Criminals and good people are not going to the same place in the spiritual world at first instance. There are a lot more in this than it looks like, the redemption process can be really painful and being good rewards as much as being bad punishes.



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 09:43 AM
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I Greet you!
One day I asked those sacred beings who had blessed me, Choka Xete(Great Grandfather) this breath of life, where does it come from, He then took my cooking bag, made of intestines of a Deer. Opened up the end and blew into the skin, like a balloon. The same air you breathe is the same air Earthmaker (Mą’ųna) started. The one who started this cycle amongst other cycles.



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