A response to: " Every possible reason for gun ownership addressed and countered"

Originally posted by LightCraft

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Originally posted by Ghost375
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

 

Look at this guy's subtitle: "ATSs most important and intelligent member"

Does anyone expect this guy is they type of guy to ever admit when he's wrong?

He's a narcissist who will always think he's right.

I admit I was wrong[/url]

The truth, more like the sh*t comes out in the wash. It is incredibly obvious that this person will go to any length and stop at nothing to be the center of attention. Even if it is negative attention. It is apparent that this person will say and do anything to keep all eyes on him. Here he comes back in an attempt to hijack the thread with something completely unrelated as he has learned he can't win a debate when he has nothing factual or even logical to offer.

The best thing anyone could do is ignore people like him. Let him stay in his own virtual sandbox.

All I did was respond to a personal attack and prove that person wrong, if I was off topic so was the person whos post I responded to.

Dont want my input or for me to contribute to the thread, simple dont respond or quote me.
Follow your own advice and just ignore me

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by liverlad

 

You do not have a clue. You must be willfully ignorant.

Take your movie knowledge and move on because you are showing stupidity here. I gave you the information and you still do not have a clue.

You need to do some research because you have the facts wrong with the shooting and do not have the basic knowledge of what a semi auto is and an automatic rifle is.

Since you can’t seem to comprehend through reading here is a video.

BTW the rifle he used is an assault weapon because it is fully automatic M16 a1. An AR-15 looks like it but is semi auto = one shot per trigger squeeze and is not an assault weapon.

If you do understand the difference at this point I have serious doubts about your intelligence.

Ah, so now you are resorting to the "you know nothing, i know everything" argument. Funny how you gun lovers always end up this way. Listen, i am not here to talk about how guns work, or what you class them as, i will leave you gun nuts to that. I am here to express my opinion that guns kill too many people in America, and they need to tighten the laws

reply to post by liverlad

Welcome back.

It's all ifs, buts and maybe's with you. The basic fact is guns are desgined to kill, and they do a good job at that, if someone wanted to shoot you, you would be dead before you had time to react. I can understand that holding a gun might make you feel like superman, but the fact remains you still remain human and no matter how much you may believe it, a gun won't protect you from bullets. That is my argument and it's based on reality.

Right. You still act as if every flashing of a gun by criminals lead to certain death. Nothing new here.

1. Burglary. Guns save the lives of your family. You have the advantage. Burglars either get out of your home in cuffs, on a stretcher or in a bodybag.

2. Public shootings. Guns kill the badguy.

3. Robbery with random knife held by wannabe toughguy and criminal. Gun drawn, criminal can either die while trying to stab you, or run away. Either way you walk out alive.

4. Night. Woman walks down the street. Rapist appears. Tries to rape her. Woman shoots rapist. Rapist dies as he should. Woman is not raped.

I could probably think of more situations where a gun would save your life and your family's lives, but I won't bother.

Again, that's only in your mind, the odds are that you would be hit before you could react. If someone pulled a gun on you in a mugging, do you really thing you will have the time to pull out your gun, aim and shoot all before he pulls the trigger on the gun that is pushed up against your head? Keep dreaming..

You're the one dreaming - and deflecting the issue. The issue here is not whether or not I will get hit. The issue here is, I would rather have a gun than not have a gun when my life is in danger because of some jackass criminal with a gun.

Enter a gun fight? Simple fact is people will common sense do not go to gunfights at all, unless you are in the army! There we go again, you have nothing to back up your silly arguments so you resort to the "you know nothing, i know everyhing so shut up". That indicates that you are losing this argument..

I'm not losing anything, and you apparently have no idea what you're talking about, because sometimes you don't get to choose whether to fight or not. Unless you consider being raped, beaten to death, shot, or otherwise maimed, a choice. I don't. And I haven't told you to shut up. I don't know where you get that from. Weirdo.

I am not an Aussie, and America is not so lucky because they have terrible out dated gun laws. And if the gun owners are so protective where was they in all these mass shootings?.

I don't give a rat's behind where you're from. But to answer your question; Not in the Gunfree zones where all shootings take place, obviously, because legal gun owners, unlike criminals, respect the law. That's something you might want to think about when it comes to banning guns.

I have every right to express my opinions, and you have no right to do anything about it, so move along

I'm not going anywhere, and in your own words, you have no right to make me. Feel free to express your narrow-minded, misguided opinions, and the rest of the world will continue to blow them out of the sky.

reply to post by liverlad


Your right because you have just demonstrated you know next to nothing about firearms.

At least now you admit that you don’t have a clue and your only argument is you don’t like guns. At least that is being honest.

Your knowledge of firearms is seriously lacking. You can dislike our gun laws all you want I don’t really care but I hope you at least stop talking from ignorance. The fact that you didn’t even know the difference between semi –auto and full auto is laughable. If you are going to debate you should try to have the basic knowledge first.

Originally posted by Gauss

Right. You still act as if every flashing of a gun by criminals lead to certain death. Nothing new here.

Again, guns do a good job of hitting the target, and most times they will.

1. Burglary. Guns save the lives of your family. You have the advantage. Burglars either get out of your home in cuffs, on a stretcher or in a bodybag.

2. Public shootings. Guns kill the badguy.

3. Robbery with random knife held by wannabe toughguy and criminal. Gun drawn, criminal can either die while trying to stab you, or run away. Either way you walk out alive.

4. Night. Woman walks down the street. Rapist appears. Tries to rape her. Woman shoots rapist. Rapist dies as he should. Woman is not raped.

1) Guard dogs are also proven to be a good deterrent for house bugaars, guns just increase the chance of you getting shot while trying to chase them out. Also, not all petty criminals carry guns, or they wouldn't if the country you lived in had tougher gun laws, which is a fact.

2) I will ask you the same question as the other lad, how did Americas gun laws help protect all the victims on the killing sprees over the years? Armed civillians couldn't stop it, as it all happens too quick for anyone to react. So that argument is flawed.

3) That's just your paranoia kicking in again, but even if this did happen to you and he had a knife at your throat, you would have a cut thoat the instance you went for your gun.

4) Same as above, that's a fear based on paranoia.

I could probably think of more situations where a gun would save your life and your family's lives, but I won't bother.

Yeah don't, because you are clutching straws now.

You're the one dreaming - and deflecting the issue. The issue here is not whether or not I will get hit. The issue here is, I would rather have a gun than not have a gun when my life is in danger because of some jackass criminal with a gun.

Your whole argument here is just based on your paranoid thoughts, these are not valid reasons for wanting to own a gun in a civilised country.

I'm not losing anything, and you apparently have no idea what you're talking about, because sometimes you don't get to choose whether to fight or not. Unless you consider being raped, beaten to death, shot, or otherwise maimed, a choice. I don't. And I haven't told you to shut up. I don't know where you get that from. Weirdo.

Paranoia, intelligence questioning and insults, same old you, really you are losing this mate. You keep coming back with the same stuff, you are starting to sound like a broken record.

II'm not going anywhere, and in your own words, you have no right to make me. Feel free to express your narrow-minded, misguided opinions, and the rest of the world will continue to blow them out of the sky.

edit on 19-12-2012 by Gauss because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-12-2012 by Gauss because: (no reason given)

Ah, so you are staying. I hope you can come up with a better argument for owning guns other than the defense argument.

Originally posted by Tikitiboo
When this constitution was drawn up, i don't think your forefathers thought for a minute ordinary members of the public would be running around with easy access to semi automatic military handguns and shotguns, its not about the guns its about the "types" of guns that are too easy to get, let each member have a gun for their right and protection, but make it illegal for ordinary people to have these military type guns, This is what its all about, and this is what's going to happen. Anyone who wishes to keep these types of guns, especially after all the stuff that has happened is a moron.

When the constitution was drawn up the forefathers hoped that someday we would be able to field SUPERIOR weapons than all enemies foreign and domestic. They were visionary men and certainly would not have placed a limit on their own freedom our future generations freedom!

The type of gun is incredibly insignificant. Anyone intent on doing harm can find a way to do so if they are motivated enough.

I refuse to be outgunned by criminals! It's time to ban criminals, do away with gun free zones and take away every single last criminals on job security!

Originally posted by Grimpachi

Your right because you have just demonstrated you know next to nothing about firearms.

You are missing the point, all i need to know about guns is that they kill too many people in your country.

At least now you admit that you don’t have a clue and your only argument is you don’t like guns. At least that is being honest.

Nope, missing the point again. My argument is that too many people are killed by guns in your country, do you disagree?

Your knowledge of firearms is seriously lacking. You can dislike our gun laws all you want I don’t really care but I hope you at least stop talking from ignorance. The fact that you didn’t even know the difference between semi –auto and full auto is laughable. If you are going to debate you should try to have the basic knowledge first.

Missing the point again, you are in the wrong thread, this is about guns killing people, not a debate about what guns are what. I am not here to debate the difference between guns, like i said before...

Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by Gauss

Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by Gauss
I would rather die as a lion than live as a sheep.

edit on 19-12-2012 by Gauss because: (no reason given)

You think having a gun makes you a lion?

I am sorry, anyone who feels they need a gun to feel safe are not lions, they are weak. My nan could kill Mike Tyson if she had a gun.

I'm sorry, but only an idiot would take a knife to a gunfight. Or fists to a knife fight. Only an idiot would say people who need guns to feel safe are weak. Bringing a knife to a gunfight - or rather, bringing fists to a gunfight - is exactly what the fanatics in the gun control movement want to do. I say let them. Darwin's law should take care of them fairly quickly after that. But don't you dare try to tell me to do it.

I feel perfectly safe without a gun as long as the biggest thing the criminals around pack is knives. But as we all know, criminals pack considerably more firepower than that. So don't you dare go around and judge people for wanting to have firearms so they can defend themselves!

I didn't say anything about a gunfight. What i have noticed about gun lovers is that they are obsessed with the idea that people are going to get them as soon as they hand over their weapons, that is total stupidity and is based on nothing but paranoia. Let's just say for arguments sake that your government decided to invade itself, do you really think your guns would save you? If anything they would make you a target. The whole "i need a gun to defend myself" thing is a very weak argument indeed, say someone wanted to shoot you, they are not going to give you a heads up and tell you about it, they are just going to shoot you without warning, so you won't even have a chance to defend yourself anyway.

Also, talking about Darwin's law, how many accidental deaths are caused by guns each year around the world?

Far less "accidental" deaths due to alcohol or motor vehicle accidents.


No gun owner thinks that "as soon as he has given up his gun someone is coming to get them" gun owners are smart enough to know that some time, some place there will come a moment when he could have used that gun to save a life or prevent the loss of life. The big fear here is being powerless to prevent bad things happening to good people.

Originally posted by LightCraft


The big fear here is being powerless to prevent bad things happening to good people.

That's my point, many people only feel the need to own one because they live in fear, and why do you think that is? My guess is because America has terrible gun laws.

Originally posted by liverlad

Again, guns do a good job of hitting the target, and most times they will.

Assumptions. You know what they make of you and me.

1) Guard dogs are also proven to be a good deterrent for house bugaars, guns just increase the chance of you getting shot while trying to chase them out. Also, not all petty criminals carry guns, or they wouldn't if the country you lived in had tougher gun laws, which is a fact.

We have very tough gun laws in my country, thankyouverymuch. And criminals still get their hands on weapons - not by stealing them from civilians, but from buying them from Eastern European and Russian smugglers and mafia, and from stealing them from military armories. Which just goes to prove, criminals will always find a way to get their hands on weapons, even if you ban them.

2) I will ask you the same question as the other lad, how did Americas gun laws help protect all the victims on the killing sprees over the years? Armed civillians couldn't stop it, as it all happens too quick for anyone to react. So that argument is flawed.

No, it's not flawed, you just chose to exclude the part of my post where I met this argument the last time you pulled it. Legal gun owners respect the law. Therefor they do not carry guns in gun-free zones. Criminals and nutcases do. Schools, which seem to be the favorite target of shooters, are gun-free zones.

3) That's just your paranoia kicking in again, but even if this did happen to you and he had a knife at your throat, you would have a cut thoat the instance you went for your gun.

What makes you think I'd let him get close enough to put the knife to my throat? I take Krav Maga classes for this very reason.

And since you insist on pulling the paranoia card over and over again, which I find offensive - stop being so paranoid about firearms. Thanks.

4) Same as above, that's a fear based on paranoia.

Such as your paranoia when it comes to firearms, you mean?

Yeah don't, because you are clutching straws now.

Are you trying to convince me, or yourself, of that?

Your whole argument here is just based on your paranoid thoughts, these are not valid reasons for wanting to own a gun in a civilised country.

Again, are you trying to convince me or yourself? Your saying it is so doesn't make it true. These are very valid reasons for wanting to own a gun.

Paranoia, intelligence questioning and insults, same old you, really you are losing this mate. You keep coming back with the same stuff, you are starting to sound like a broken record.

And for the second time, your saying it is so doesn't make it true. Come with some real counterarguments instead of calling me paranoid.

Ah, so you are staying. I hope you can come up with a better argument for owning guns other than the defense argument.

Why should I? First of all, the self defense argument is perfectly reasonable, even if you in your paranoid mind can't see it. Secondly, every other argument and reason for owning a gun that exists, you know of already. I will not indulge you by giving them. Most importantly, owning guns is still a right in America, and you still have neither the right nor power to take away that right. So cry all you want in your paranoid little fearful brain. It will do no difference.

Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by Gauss
reply to post by liverlad

 

Your argument relies on that all people who want to kill someone with guns get the first shot every time, everywhere, including during nightly burglaries and public shootings (where they might not necessarily pick me as their first target) which of course is not true. THAT is why your argument is retarded.

And it's not that I don't like people like you. I just don't like you.

Also, this time I really am done. Sorry about that.

And you are relying on the fact that you are some kind of Clint Eastwood who would kill them when they missed!

Guns are designed to be one shot killers and most of the time they hit their target, then you have automatic guns, which are even harder to miss.

Of course you are done, the longer you stay in this debate, the more silly you make yourself look! Your only argument for owning a gun is to defend yourself, and that has been proven many times to be a very weak argument based on paranoia.

No you're showing sheer ignorance when it comes to guns. It's not your fault, you were raised in a nanny society and grew up watching too many movies. And I really do not blame you for that.

First off: The one shot kill is a myth. That has been proven time and time again.A quick jaunt on google will give more results than you can handle.

Here's a short clip of a man getting shot by a cop and keeps on attacking the police officer:
philly.barstoolsports.com...

Next your comment about fully automatic guns being so accurate is completely false. Fully automatic weapons are very very hard to fire accurately in extended bursts. This was so much of a problem for the US military they adopted 3 round burst for the majority of their weapons.

Owning a gun is not about paranoia. It is about being prepared for any situation. It is about being a good steward of humanity. The fact is there are bad people in the world intent on doing bad things to good people. We must stand ready to strike fear into the hearts of those that prey upon the weak!

Twist it any way you like, the gun, any type of gun is not to blame. It is the criminal who is to blame!

Originally posted by liverlad
And another thing, the clue is in the name, they are called ASSAULT weapons for a resaon, they are not a defensive weapon, they are an offensive weapon, so that doesn't fit in with the argument for owning a gun for defence.

I can sit here all day and argue against these arguments if that's all you can come up with it, going to grab some munchies!

edit on 19-12-2012 by liverlad because: (no reason given)

You're completely wrong again!

The term 'ASSAULT WEAPON' is a misnomer does not apply to ANY SEMI-automatic rifle. Period. Except in the case of fear mongering anti gun legislators, of course

definition below:
A genuine assault weapon, as opposed to a legal definition, is a hand-held, selective fire weapon, which means it's capable of firing in either an automatic or a semiautomatic mode depending on the position of a selector switch. These kinds of weapons are heavily regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934

You obviously like to argue, if you're going to continue at least make an effort to know the facts first.

Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by liverlad

 

Let's get something straight: Nobody had an AUTOMATIC weapon, it was a SEMI-automatic weapon. Get your terminology straight.

Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by LightCraft


The big fear here is being powerless to prevent bad things happening to good people.

That's my point, many people only feel the need to own one because they live in fear, and why do you think that is? My guess is because America has terrible gun laws.

That would be a poor guess on your behalf.

We enjoy our lives and don't live in fear because we have the tools and capability to deal with bad people when the need arises. Make no mistake about it.

Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by Grimpachi

Your right because you have just demonstrated you know next to nothing about firearms.

You are missing the point, all i need to know about guns is that they kill too many people in your country.

At least now you admit that you don’t have a clue and your only argument is you don’t like guns. At least that is being honest.

Nope, missing the point again. My argument is that too many people are killed by guns in your country, do you disagree?

Your knowledge of firearms is seriously lacking. You can dislike our gun laws all you want I don’t really care but I hope you at least stop talking from ignorance. The fact that you didn’t even know the difference between semi –auto and full auto is laughable. If you are going to debate you should try to have the basic knowledge first.

Missing the point again, you are in the wrong thread, this is about guns killing people, not a debate about what guns are what. I am not here to debate the difference between guns, like i said before...

edit on 19-12-2012 by liverlad because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-12-2012 by liverlad because: (no reason given)

Not missing the point at all. You are trying to debate with faulty information. Your knowledge of firearms and even the terms used to describe their function are flawed. Your facts about the shooting are incorrect. Guns save more lives in my country than take them. Again you need to do some research. Your position is based from emotion which is fine but be honest about it and stop offering your incorrect opinions as fact. Guns have saved my life more than once I have also used a gun to save others. You can have your opinion all you want but your flawed argument is still flawed.

I am pretty sure you live in a sheltered society like so many others who are posting anti-gun rhetoric on here but don’t expect us to conform to your understanding of the world simply because of your opinions and fears.

Originally posted by Gauss
We have very tough gun laws in my country, thankyouverymuch. And criminals still get their hands on weapons - not by stealing them from civilians, but from buying them from Eastern Europe and Russia, and from stealing them from military armories. Which just goes to prove, criminals will always find a way to get their hands on weapons, even if you ban them.

I know Sweeden does now have tough gun laws, and because of that you don't have the same problem as America. I know you are never going to stop criminals completley, but you can minimize it. One thing for sure, more guns is not the answer to those problems.

No, it's not flawed, you just chose to exclude the part of my post where I met this argument the last time you pulled it. Legal gun owners respect the law. Therefor they do not carry guns in gun-free zones. Criminals and nutcases do. Schools, which seem to be the favorite target of shooters, are gun-free zones.

Not all legal gun owners respect the law, take the recent shooting in America, the killers mother was a legal gun holder, yet she left her guns in a place that her son could get hold of them, she also left a gun in her car! Is that what you call respecting the law? Do you really think the answer to America's gun problems is to have more guns on the streets!? Hoestly?

What makes you think I'd let him get close enough to put the gun to my throat? I take Krav Maga classes for this very reason.

Oh yeah, i forgot you're a superhuman badass.

And since you insist on pulling the paranoia card over and over again, which I find offensive - stop being so paranoid about firearms. Thanks.

Really? You are stooping that low, try telling that to victims of gun crime.

Such as your paranoia when it comes to firearms, you mean?

Same as above.

Are you trying to convince me, or yourself, of that?

You.

] Again, are you trying to convince me or yourself? Your saying it is so doesn't make it true. These are very valid reasons for wanting to own a gun.

Again, you. They are not valid at all, i have made my points eailer in the thread as to why wanting to own a gun to defend yourself from something that might happen is a stupid idea, and you have yet to put forward a decent argument as to why i am wrong.

And for the third time, your saying it is so doesn't make it true. Come with some real counterarguments instead of calling me paranoid.

I came up with some good counterarguments eailer in the thread, just before you insulted me and declared to be finished in this thread.

Why should I? First of all, the self defense argument is perfectly reasonable, even if you in your paranoid mind can't see it. Secondly, every other argument and reason for owning a gun that exists, you know of already. I will not indulge you by giving them. Most importantly, owning guns is still a right in America, and you still have neither the right nor power to take away that right. So cry all you want in your paranoid little fearful brain. It will do no difference.

Why should you? Because so far, the only argument you have put forward is for self defense, and that has been proven not to be a valid exucse on a few occasions now. Also, i know owning guns in America is a right, and i am not trying to take that away, just expressing my opinion that there should be tigher laws because times have moved on.

Originally posted by Grimpachi

Not missing the point at all. You are trying to debate with faulty information. Your knowledge of firearms and even the terms used to describe their function are flawed. Your facts about the shooting are incorrect. Guns save more lives in my country than take them. Again you need to do some research. Your position is based from emotion which is fine but be honest about it and stop offering your incorrect opinions as fact. Guns have saved my life more than once I have also used a gun to save others. You can have your opinion all you want but your flawed argument is still flawed.

I am pretty sure you live in a sheltered society like so many others who are posting anti-gun rhetoric on here but don’t expect us to conform to your understanding of the world simply because of your opinions and fears.

edit on 19-12-2012 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

There are a lot of guns on American streets, there are also a lot of deaths caused by guns on American streets, please tell me what is so faulty about that information? It's not so hard to understand is it?

Please, go ahead and give me some evidence that guns save more lives than they do kill. For every story you show me where a gun has saved a life, i will show you 5 storys where guns have taken them.

Also, instead of telling me over and over that my argument is flawed, please back yourself up and tell me WHY my argument is flawed. You can't can you?

Originally posted by liverlad
I know Sweeden does now have tough gun laws, and because of that you don't have the same problem as America. I know you are never going to stop criminals completley, but you can minimize it. One thing for sure, more guns is not the answer to those problems.

You must be joking. Sweden has one of the highest rates of armed robbery against money transports in the world. We have a growing problem with organized crime. We have biker gangs like Hell's Angels and Bandidos (mainly the former) pushing people for money, assaulting them, harrassing them and otherwise threatening innocent people. And let's not even get into our judges and witnesses threatened by these people when they are to testify against them.

And yes, licensed firearms would deter these jackasses from pulling that sort of crap.

Not all legal gun owners respect the law, take the recent shooting in America, the killers mother was a legal gun holder, yet she left her guns in a place that her son could get hold of them, she also left a gun in her car! Is that what you call respecting the law? Do you really think the answer to America's gun problems is to have more guns on the streets!? Hoestly?

First of all, I'm a proponent of a law similar to those in Sweden when it comes to storing weapons, so I'm not even going to dignify the first part with an answer. And as for the second part, it's been proven in statistics. You should look it up. But then again, those statistics have been shown in these kinds of discussions a thousand times, and if you really was open to change your opinion, you would have known this already.

Oh yeah, i forgot you're a superhuman badass.

Thanks. Flattery will get you everywhere. But one does not have to be a superhuman badass like me to keep a criminal with a knife away. One only has to take Krav Maga classes. A lot of the people in these classes are women half my size learning to defend themselves - against criminals. Guns are part of the curriculum, incidentally.

Really? You are stooping that low, try telling that to victims of gun crime.

Really? REALLY? What do you think a woman who has been raped has to say about gun control? What do you think a man who survives a public shooting in a gun-free zone has to say about gun control? You should try to talk to them about gun control and see how they react. You're the one who is trying to take away their right to defend themselves, NOT ME, so don't you pull that crap on me!

Again, you. They are not valid at all, i have made my points eailer in the thread as to why wanting to own a gun to defend yourself from something that might happen is a stupid idea, and you have yet to put forward a decent argument as to why i am wrong.

You have made your points, and they have all been - if you'll excuse the pun - pointless. I have shot each one of them down, as have my comrades in arms (again, do excuse the pun) here on your posts to them, but somehow you seem to miss this every time we do it. Selective blindness or something, I don't know.

Why should you? Because so far, the only argument you have put forward is for self defense, and that has been proven not to be a valid exucse on a few occasions now. Also, i know owning guns in America is a right, and i am not trying to take that away, just expressing my opinion that there should be tigher laws because times have moved on.

You haven't proved anything, you've just spouted your ignorant opinion on issues you have proven to know nothing about.

Originally posted by liverlad

1) Guard dogs are also proven to be a good deterrent for house bugaars, guns just increase the chance of you getting shot while trying to chase them out. Also, not all petty criminals carry guns, or they wouldn't if the country you lived in had tougher gun laws, which is a fact.

Yeah those "bugaars" sure are dangerous. Guns have been proven time and time again to decrease the probability of getting shot in a burglary. here's a FACT or two for you:

"*3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."

" 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."

" 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

2) I will ask you the same question as the other lad, how did Americas gun laws help protect all the victims on the killing sprees over the years? Armed civillians couldn't stop it, as it all happens too quick for anyone to react. So that argument is flawed.

Aww laddy, love the terms of endearment; In this most recent example it did not help because it was a GUN FREE ZONE. Meaning law abiding citizens were not able to have weapons there. As you can see, criminals care very little about "no guns, this is a gun free zone" sign as evidenced.

3) That's just your paranoia kicking in again, but even if this did happen to you and he had a knife at your throat, you would have a cut thoat the instance you went for your gun.

Even if the above scenario were realistic. Someone doesn't die instantly from having their throat cut. There would still be plenty of time to pull your gun and make sure the cretin never lived another day.

4) Same as above, that's a fear based on paranoia.

It appears the one who is fearful and paranoid here is you, laddy.

Your whole argument here is just based on your paranoid thoughts, these are not valid reasons for wanting to own a gun in a civilised country.

The facts speak from themselves.I could sit here and beat you half to death with facts and somehow I just don't think you'll ever 'get it'. And despite living in a civilized country, there are still bad people. As they say: "ignorance is bliss"

Paranoia, intelligence questioning and insults, same old you, really you are losing this mate. You keep coming back with the same stuff, you are starting to sound like a broken record.

You're the one who is losing. You have nothing but a one sided emotional response to everything. You ignore all facts, you ignore reason. You seem to be "stuck on stupid".

Ah, so you are staying. I hope you can come up with a better argument for owning guns other than the defense argument.

The true beauty here is: You're not an American and you don't have any dog in this fight. That means nobody has to explain jack diddly squat to you. We don't need to make an argument for a god given right.

Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by Grimpachi

Not missing the point at all. You are trying to debate with faulty information. Your knowledge of firearms and even the terms used to describe their function are flawed. Your facts about the shooting are incorrect. Guns save more lives in my country than take them. Again you need to do some research. Your position is based from emotion which is fine but be honest about it and stop offering your incorrect opinions as fact. Guns have saved my life more than once I have also used a gun to save others. You can have your opinion all you want but your flawed argument is still flawed.

I am pretty sure you live in a sheltered society like so many others who are posting anti-gun rhetoric on here but don’t expect us to conform to your understanding of the world simply because of your opinions and fears.

edit on 19-12-2012 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

There are a lot of guns on American streets, there are also a lot of deaths caused by guns on American streets, please tell me what is so faulty about that information? It's not so hard to understand is it?

Please, go ahead and give me some evidence that guns save more lives than they do kill. For every story you show me where a gun has saved a life, i will show you 5 storys where guns have taken them.

Also, instead of telling me over and over that my argument is flawed, please back yourself up and tell me WHY my argument is flawed. You can't can you?

edit on 19-12-2012 by liverlad because: (no reason given)

You asked for it:

"Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day.(20) This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives"

"Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker."

" States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%;and

If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly."

Source: gunowners.org...