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A response to: " Every possible reason for gun ownership addressed and countered"

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posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by liverlad
 

Just a few more:

"Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rate in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.(32) FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period—thus putting the Florida rate below the national average"

"Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando’s rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation."

"CDC admits there is no evidence that gun control reduces crime. The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) has long been criticized for propagating questionable studies which gun control organizations have used in defense of their cause. But after analyzing 51 studies in 2003, the CDC concluded that the "evidence was insufficient to determine the effectiveness of any of these firearms laws"

Again more compiled data from gunowners.org which cites sources such as FBI Uniform Crime Reports, CDC studies and many other legal & scientific entities.




posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 04:48 PM
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reply to post by liverlad
 


I am not going to do your research for you AGAIN. Google is your friend and the statistics are there that show how many crimes have been stopped by gun owners there is another statistic as well like when I killed a wild dog that was attacking my neighbors kid which doesn’t go reported. I have shot a criminal that was robing a convince store which saved the cashiers life I have also kept from being attacked on more than one occasion myself by simply brandishing my weapon. Your idea of how the world works is flawed by itself. Like I said you probably live in a sheltered country which does not have the same problems we have. Does your country border a third world country? Do you have to worry about wild animals? Is road rage a problem there? Have you ever had a loved one attacked by a rapist?

If that school had an officer there or even if the principle was armed things would have turned out different. When I was growing up we kept rifles on our gun racks in our trucks going to school and back then schools were not targets for mentally deranged people. Like I said before my life has been saved by guns before and I have used guns to save lives before so your limited knowledge of my country that has formed your opinion is not a factor in determining a US citizen’s right to bear arms.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by Gauss

You must be joking. Sweden has one of the highest rates of armed robbery against money transports in the world. We have a growing problem with organized crime. We have biker gangs like Hell's Angels and Bandidos (mainly the former) pushing people for money, assaulting them, harrassing them and otherwise threatening innocent people. And let's not even get into our judges and witnesses threatened by these people when they are to testify against them.

And yes, licensed firearms would deter these jackasses from pulling that sort of crap.
Every country in the world has the same problems, you are never going to get rid of those. The problem i am talking about is mass shootings happening almost every month, i don't care what you say Sweeden doesn't have a problem like that. Yes it could happen, but it doesn't because you have sensible gun laws. Also, having licensed firearms doesn't stop petty crime, it just allows the ones doing the crimes to get their weapons easier.




First of all, I'm a proponent of a law similar to those in Sweden when it comes to storing weapons, so I'm not even going to dignify the first part with an answer. And as for the second part, it's been proven in statistics. You should look it up. But then again, those statistics have been shown in these kinds of discussions a thousand times, and if you really was open to change your opinion, you would have known this already.
Really, you have stats that backs up your opinion that America would be safer if they didn't take guns from the streets, but actually put even more guns on the streets! I would like to see those stats, because there are also stats out there that prove when you remove guns from the streets, there will be less deaths from guns in the long run.




Thanks. Flattery will get you everywhere. But one does not have to be a superhuman badass like me to keep a criminal with a knife away. One only has to take Krav Maga classes. A lot of the people in these classes are women half my size learning to defend themselves - against criminals. Guns are part of the curriculum, incidentally.
My points still stand about the mugger with his gun to your head, will your training get you out of that situation too? I don't think so, but keep pretending.




Really? REALLY? What do you think a woman who has been raped has to say about gun control? What do you think a man who survives a public shooting in a gun-free zone has to say about gun control? Huh?! You should try to talk to them about gun control and see how they react. You're the one who is trying to take away their right to defend themselves, NOT ME, so don't you pull that crap on me!
Well i don't tell her she should have carried a gun, that's for sure!



You have made your points, and they have all been - if you'll excuse the pun - pointless. I have shot each one of them down, as have my comrades in arms (again, do excuse the pun) here on your posts to them, but somehow you seem to miss this every time we do it. Selective blindness or something, I don't know.
Ok, so for the sake of the argument if i agree that owning a gun for defense could be a good idea, as long as it's a hand gun. Can you give me a good reason to want to own a Semi-auto rifle? (the main part of my argument)




You haven't proved anything, you've just spouted your ignorant opinion on issues you have proven to know nothing about.
edit on 19-12-2012 by Gauss because: (no reason given)
Same as above.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by liverlad

1) Guard dogs are also proven to be a good deterrent for house bugaars, guns just increase the chance of you getting shot while trying to chase them out. Also, not all petty criminals carry guns, or they wouldn't if the country you lived in had tougher gun laws, which is a fact.

2) I will ask you the same question as the other lad, how did Americas gun laws help protect all the victims on the killing sprees over the years? Armed civillians couldn't stop it, as it all happens too quick for anyone to react. So that argument is flawed.

3) That's just your paranoia kicking in again, but even if this did happen to you and he had a knife at your throat, you would have a cut thoat the instance you went for your gun.

4) Same as above, that's a fear based on paranoia.



Who is the paranoid one? The one afraid of guns for no reason or the people who want guns to defend themselves from crime that's very real? Really getting tired of you people calling us paranoid when you seem to fit the definition.

Really annoying seeing all the foreigners who have probably never walked down an American street tell us how Americans should defend themselves and how we should throw away the 2nd and only allow them to embrace their countries culture/history.

Little story (of many) for ya. A few years ago someone broke into my friends house while his neighbor, an elderly woman was babysitting his little sister. She got hog tied with duct tape while they had baseball bats and threw her in a closet and left with the toddler by herself in a room UPSTAIRS when they couldn't find what they were looking for. Now you tell me why she shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.

All your doing by giving your opinion is starting pointless arguments and making people rage a little and say something that lets you attack them. Also, you wont win by posting statistics that favor your argument when there are ones that make you look like an idiot on the same website you got your facts from
edit on 19-12-2012 by christoph because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by liverlad
 





Ok, so for the sake of the argument if I agree that owning a gun for defense could be a good idea, as long as it's a hand gun. Can you give me a good reason to want to own a Semi-auto rifle? (the main part of my argument)

That is easy when I lived in Louisiana we had problems with wild dogs and wild boars IMHO wild boars can be far more dangerous and we used to hunt them at night on the farms because they were destroying the crops and it absolutely necessary to use a semi-automatic rifle or they all get away after the first shot. There you have a reason now.

Here is another if you live in Texas they have a huge problem with the drug cartels and drug runners where owning a semi auto rifle is a necessity.

If you like to hike the wilderness in areas the drug cartels have illegal grow operations where having a rifle can and has saved law abiding citizens lives.

I just gave you three reasons of the top of my head.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by liverlad

Every country in the world has the same problems, you are never going to get rid of those. The problem i am talking about is mass shootings happening almost every month, i don't care what you say Sweeden doesn't have a problem like that. Yes it could happen, but it doesn't because you have sensible gun laws. Also, having licensed firearms doesn't stop petty crime, it just allows the ones doing the crimes to get their weapons easier.


Uh, no. Just a few years back I recall we had an incident in central Stockholm where some lunatic took his car and drove right through a crowded street. A lot of people died there. Psychos will find a way, guns or no guns. But legality to own guns even the odds for the victims.


Really, you have stats that backs up your opinion that America would be safer if they didn't take guns from the streets, but actually put even more guns on the streets! I would like to see those stats, because there are also stats out there that prove when you remove guns from the streets, there will be less deaths from guns in the long run.
The statistics have been posted by Lightcraft. Read 'em and weep.


My points still stand about the mugger with his gun to your head, will your training get you out of that situation too? I don't think so, but keep pretending.
I will ignore your pretending comment and apologize. I typed wrong. This particular discussion was originally about a knife to the throat, not a gun. I have edited accordingly.


Well i don't tell her she should have carried a gun, that's for sure!


Neither would I. But you would have even more women get raped without any chance to defend themselves.


Ok, so for the sake of the argument if i agree that owning a gun for defense could be a good idea, as long as it's a hand gun. Can you give me a good reason to want to own a Semi-auto rifle? (the main part of my argument)


Hunting, sports shooting and tactical training for security contractors working in third world countries, to name a few.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by liverlad

]Every country in the world has the same problems, you are never going to get rid of those. The problem i am talking about is mass shootings happening almost every month, i don't care what you say Sweeden doesn't have a problem like that. Yes it could happen, but it doesn't because you have sensible gun laws. Also, having licensed firearms doesn't stop petty crime, it just allows the ones doing the crimes to get their weapons easier.


So you're saying that "since every country has these problems" but not every country has effective laws in place like the USA does, we should all suffer the same. No thanks, your country may want to make it easier for criminals to prevail and that's fine be me. But don't push your BS laws and way of life on me, I am not interested.





Really, you have stats that backs up your opinion that America would be safer if they didn't take guns from the streets, but actually put even more guns on the streets! I would like to see those stats, because there are also stats out there that prove when you remove guns from the streets, there will be less deaths from guns in the long run.


I just posted several stats in above posts. But you seem to be avoiding dealing with the FACTS like the plague. Keep spouting your ignorance, I'll keep posting factual evidence and we'll all be happy.



My points still stand about the mugger with his gun to your head, will your training get you out of that situation too? I don't think so, but keep pretending.


I addressed this in above post. But I'll add: I doubt very much a mugger would choose someone who is carrying a weapon concealed. They do not present themselves as 'sheep' like the meek and meager do. Predatory criminals seek out the weak, they don't like being hurt on the job.



Well i don't tell her she should have carried a gun, that's for sure!


No you would just hand her a tube of lube and say "at least it won't hurt as bad". You need your head checked. Next time you go looking for a woman to date share these views with her, she'd drop you like a hot rock.



Ok, so for the sake of the argument if i agree that owning a gun for defense could be a good idea, as long as it's a hand gun. Can you give me a good reason to want to own a Semi-auto rifle? (the main part of my argument)


Yes. I'll make it easy for you: Because there is no moral or ethical reason a criminal should have better guns than a law abiding citizen.



Same as above.

Ditto.
edit on 19-12-2012 by LightCraft because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 05:23 PM
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Sad country the US has turned into. Neither side is 100% correct, but the "distribute more guns" mentality is definitely the wrong way to go.


I, an american, have chosen to live outside the US, I just couldn't bear discuss everyday with extreme far left/right mentalities and positions you see on display right now in the US, it's either religious, economic, politics, overseas policies, war, everything, just makes me sick.

You can keep the country to yourselves. No tolerance at all, BOTH SIDES. You can high-five each other all you want, America is going down, and the divide is clearly coming from within. Keep your guns, you'll need them.

I, as an american, can say, I'm glad to be out. YUCK.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by tabov
 


Nah. America will be alright. She's a great country filled with great people. She'll pull through.


Her politicians hopefully won't, however...

edit on 19-12-2012 by Gauss because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by tabov
Sad country the US has turned into. Neither side is 100% correct, but the "distribute more guns" mentality is definitely the wrong way to go.


I, an american, have chosen to live outside the US, I just couldn't bear discuss everyday with extreme far left/right mentalities and positions you see on display right now in the US, it's either religious, economic, politics, overseas policies, war, everything, just makes me sick.

You can keep the country to yourselves. No tolerance at all, BOTH SIDES. You can high-five each other all you want, America is going down, and the divide is clearly coming from within. Keep your guns, you'll need them.

I, as an american, can say, I'm glad to be out. YUCK.



With that kind of attitude, I'm glad you're out. STAY OUT.
edit on 19-12-2012 by LightCraft because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by LightCraft


The big fear here is being powerless to prevent bad things happening to good people.
That's my point, many people only feel the need to own one because they live in fear, and why do you think that is? My guess is because America has terrible gun laws.


I think the big fear here is that the world has terrible people tbh.

Pandora has already been released from the box, that ship has already set sail. Unless you have a time machine (if so please share), nobody can go backwards in time to prevent Europe from the advances in cannon and gun technology or better yet go back to when gunpowder was invented by the chinese.

Banning all guns simply put would never work, just as a ban on nuclear technology at this point will not work.

Not being from the United States any foreigner voicing thier opinion on rewriting our founding document to allow the government to ban the use of civilians to own firearms is as ludicrous as trying to get all nations of the world to dismantle all their nuclear arsenals all at the same time with no country trying to pull the wool over the rest of the worlds eyes. Simply put, it just is not going to ever in a million different dimensional realities ever happen. The world is full of bad people, that my friend is a fact of life and no argument to the contrary will ever change that fact.

I do not personally own a gun but know other people close to me that do. That being said I would never presume I had the right to enforce my choice on anybody else. I would rather have the choice to be able to own a firearm over the lack of choice to make that decision for myself. These are dangerous times we live in and in this country not you, me, the government, or the tooth fairy have the right to take others rights away from them, end of story. Making more strict regulations on firearms will do absolutely nothing constructive, and I daresay would be the exact opposite and be detrimental to our society as a whole. People have the inalienable right to if the need arises defend themselves from all the filth that currently resides in the world we live in. This will not ever change as long as evil exists in the world and not to be pessimistic, but I don't see evil going anywhere anytime soon. Instead of harping on the banning of guns people should be talking about getting a bit more strict with bad parenting, the lack of easily obtainable mental health services in this country, and the stigma that is attached to those with mental health issues. Until we as a world populace address these issues, we will be hard pressed to see any significant improvement in relation to these tragedies happening.


This is just my $0.02, your mileage may vary.


edit on 19-12-2012 by Darkphoenix77 because: punctuation

edit on 19-12-2012 by Darkphoenix77 because: again punctuation



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by Darkphoenix77

Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by LightCraft


The big fear here is being powerless to prevent bad things happening to good people.
That's my point, many people only feel the need to own one because they live in fear, and why do you think that is? My guess is because America has terrible gun laws.


I think the big fear here is that the world has terrible people tbh.

Pandora has already been released from the box, that ship has already set sail. Unless you have a time machine (if so please share), nobody can go backwards in time to prevent Europe from the advances in cannon and gun technology or better yet go back to when gunpowder was invented by the chinese.

Banning all guns simply put would never work, just as a ban on nuclear technology at this point will not work.

Not being from the United States any foreigner voicing thier opinion on rewriting our founding document to allow the government to ban the use of civilians to own firearms is as ludicrous as trying to get all nations of the world to dismantle all their nuclear arsenals all at the same time with no country trying to pull the wool over the rest of the worlds eyes. Simply put, it just is not going to ever in a million different dimensional realities ever happen. The world is full of bad people, that my friend is a fact of life and no argument to the contrary will ever change that fact.

I do not personally own a gun but know other people close to me that do. That being said I would never presume I had the right to enforce my choice on anybody else. I would rather have the choice to be able to own a firearm over the lack of choice to make that decision for myself. These are dangerous times we live in and in this country not you, me, the government, or the tooth fairy have the right to take others rights away from them, end of story. Making more strict regulations on firearms will do absolutely nothing constructive, and I daresay would be the exact opposite and be detrimental to our society as a whole. People have the inalienable right to if the need arises defend themselves from all the filth that currently resides in the world we live in. This will not ever change as long as evil exists in the world and not to be pessimistic, but I don't see evil going anywhere anytime soon. Instead of harping on the banning of guns people should be talking about getting a bit more strict with bad parenting, the lack of easily obtainable mental health services in this country, and the stigma that is attached to those with mental health issues. Until we as a world populace address these issues, we will be hard pressed to see any significant improvement in relation to these tragedies happening.


This is just my $0.02, your mileage may vary.


edit on 19-12-2012 by Darkphoenix77 because: punctuation

edit on 19-12-2012 by Darkphoenix77 because: again punctuation


You're right: addressing the issues of mental illness is the biggest hurdle we face in this situation. The problem is many people think by taking guns away will remove the criminally insane persons means to do so. It wouldn't work, where there is a will there is a way. If it wasn't guns it would be box cutters, if it wasn't box cutters it would be bombs, if it wasn't bombs it would be arson..

You can completely strip every one of these things away from a society, you still haven't done anything to address the real issue.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 07:56 PM
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reply to post by LightCraft
 


www.wnd.com...

A whole 25 years that have been murder free in "Guntown" USA.
I hate guns, but when it comes to it, this town has had no murders in 25 years.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by dampnickers
reply to post by LightCraft
 


www.wnd.com...

A whole 25 years that have been murder free in "Guntown" USA.
I hate guns, but when it comes to it, this town has had no murders in 25 years.


That should tell the anti-gun people something.

And for the record: I think most people that "hate guns" probably have not been exposed to them in the proper manner. I am of the opinion that if people are introduced to guns properly and taught how to respect them a lot of their fears would be quelled. Also, I think people really fail to realize how much fun shooting is! There are many great competitive shooting sports which are tons of fun. Then there's reloading which is an art in itself.

I truly believe that I could take 100 people out to the range that either have a fear of guns or just don't like them and convert more than half of them within a days time. Probably more.



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by ProfessorChaos
Awesome thread! The biggest threats to the safety of American citizens are the Media and ill-informed, reactionary people.

The obvious logic behind maintaining the 2nd Amendment is lost on people who are too frightened to think for, and protect themselves.

Having to resort to arguments like "Ban the car" "Ban Knives" etc. etc. in order to get the point across only highlights the idiocy of those that propose the banning of guns and the nullification of the 2nd Amendment.

Instead of getting rid of guns, why aren't we talking about getting rid of CRIMINALS?! Making guns illegal to own will NEVER stop a criminal from obtaining one, it will only leave more law-abiding people open to being violated both by criminals and the government.

As for all of these supposedly "gun-friendly" politicians who are warming up to the idea of a ban, I say we remove them from office and remind them that ultimately, it is NOT up to them, but to us (THE PEOPLE).

@ Prof
Thank you and a star is in more than order. Your second statement said it all,
through all the threads. Emotionally dragged along by the media is not independent
thinking, and this is all so blatantly results-oriented Hegel. No solutions, just knee
jerk from another mental cattle prodding. I'm convinced that the people who have never
learned how to defend themselves at all are counting on Mommy Governess and Big Sis
to protect them. Surprise imminent.. the monster under the bed is not whom you think.
I suppose at this point a history lesson is too late for preventive medicine... a shame



posted on Dec, 19 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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reply to post by LightCraft
 


Sorry LightCraft, but I can only star your posts once


We are the militia, always have been. I am confident, when we are called to action, our numbers will be 10 times that of the U.S. active duty military... and given that a majority of the military will be fighting WITH us -- I think we'll be just fine.

The 2nd amendment is are part of us, plain and simple.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 05:06 AM
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Originally posted by six67seven
reply to post by LightCraft
 


Sorry LightCraft, but I can only star your posts once


We are the militia, always have been. I am confident, when we are called to action, our numbers will be 10 times that of the U.S. active duty military... and given that a majority of the military will be fighting WITH us -- I think we'll be just fine.

The 2nd amendment is are part of us, plain and simple.


A nation of paranoid deluded people, governed by a murderous and lying government, itching to pull out their semi and fully automatic weapons to defend the mighty US of A.

Comical doesn't even come close to the reality of this situation.

Flame on!

T



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by torqpoc

Originally posted by six67seven
reply to post by LightCraft
 


Sorry LightCraft, but I can only star your posts once


We are the militia, always have been. I am confident, when we are called to action, our numbers will be 10 times that of the U.S. active duty military... and given that a majority of the military will be fighting WITH us -- I think we'll be just fine.

The 2nd amendment is are part of us, plain and simple.


A nation of paranoid deluded people, governed by a murderous and lying government, itching to pull out their semi and fully automatic weapons to defend the mighty US of A.

Comical doesn't even come close to the reality of this situation.

Flame on!

T



You're the only one doing the flaming here. And your post says more about you than the US. I wonder if you've ever been there and met the wonderful people who live there.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 07:34 AM
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reply to post by Gauss
 


most people have never wandered into a beautiful small town in the US. They don't get the tourism the dirty metropolitan areas do.

Small town USA is by far one of the nicest, friendliest, most sincere and enchanting, and good natured places on earth. That makes for boring headlines, but that's the way folks over there like it. Nice and boring.

That USA never gets mentioned.



edit on 20-12-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 07:38 AM
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reply to post by zedVSzardoz
 


I agree. I'm originally from Sweden. I have a girlfriend in Springfield, Mo, which is why I still list that as location despite being back in Sweden. Anyway, a few months back I finally got to visit her in the notorious Bible Belt. There, if anywhere, you would think you would meet real jackasses, the stereotypical easy-to-hate American.

I didn't. All I met were incredibly awesome people. Friendly, polite, generous...(Not to mention they make insanely good food. Oh, how I miss Midwest American cooking...) They were hospitable, too! Everywhere I went, every store owner I met and talked to, they were friendly, warm, welcoming - MUCH more so than in my own country.

But as you say, people never see that part of America. Or they simply ignore it.

Me? I say Americans are some of the greatest, and nicest people in the world.



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