A response to: " Every possible reason for gun ownership addressed and countered"

Originally posted by Gauss
reply to post by liverlad

 

Your argument relies on that all people who want to kill someone with guns get the first shot every time, everywhere, including during nightly burglaries and public shootings (where they might not necessarily pick me as their first target) which of course is not true. THAT is why your argument is retarded.

And it's not that I don't like people like you. I just don't like you.

Also, this time I really am done. Sorry about that.

And you are relying on the fact that you are some kind of Clint Eastwood who would kill them when they missed!

Guns are designed to be one shot killers and most of the time they hit their target, then you have automatic guns, which are even harder to miss.

Of course you are done, the longer you stay in this debate, the more silly you make yourself look! Your only argument for owning a gun is to defend yourself, and that has been proven many times to be a very weak argument based on paranoia.

reply to post by liverlad


You do not know much about guns do you? Your statement about automatic weapons being harder to miss with shows that. Automatic weapons are primarily used for suppressing fire.(that means making the enemy take cover) The M16 A 2 has a 3 round burst select fire because regardless of how good a person may think they are at shooting after the 3rd round you will be off target and the rest of the bullets fired is simply wasting ammo.

Do yourself a favor and learn a little about the subjects you post about first.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by liverlad

 

You do not know much about guns do you? Your statement about automatic weapons being harder to miss with shows that. Automatic weapons are primarily used for suppressing fire.(that means making the enemy take cover) The M16 A 2 has a 3 round burst select fire because regardless of how good a person may think they are at shooting after the 3rd round you will be off target and the rest of the bullets fired is simply wasting ammo.

Do yourself a favor and learn a little about the subjects you post about first.

They are desgined for suppressing fire at long range, at close range they are efficent killing machines, don't think you can get around that argument that easily!

Automatic guns are also designed to be used in a situation of war, not on the streets and in civillian buildings.

And another thing, the clue is in the name, they are called ASSAULT weapons for a resaon, they are not a defensive weapon, they are an offensive weapon, so that doesn't fit in with the argument for owning a gun for defence.

I can sit here all day and argue against these arguments if that's all you can come up with it, going to grab some munchies!

reply to post by liverlad


There is no need to use fully auto at close range that becomes a waste of bullets as well. Three round burst was much more affective.
So you are saying that when my squad and I had to go door to door we didn’t need our rifles?

Your experience seems to be Rambo movies mine was the military. Educate yourself.

Automatic and three round burst weapons are assault rifles and they were not used in school massacres.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by liverlad

 

There is no need to use fully auto at close range that becomes a waste of bullets as well. Three round burst was much more affective.
So you are saying that when my squad and I had to go door to door we didn’t need our rifles?

Your experience seems to be Rambo movies mine was the military. Educate yourself.

Automatic and three round burst weapons are assault rifles and they were not used in school massacres.

What the hell are you going about? Do you think someone who is planning to go into a crowded civillian building and shooting as many people as he can is worried about wasting ammo?

Also, you and what squad? are you in the army? If so then of course you need weapons, you are in a war situation! My arguement is about civillians wanting to own killing machines for no other reason than to "defend themselves from other guns". Not disarming the whole world!

At least you have the right idea, you like guns so join the army.

Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by Gauss
reply to post by liverlad

 

Your argument relies on that all people who want to kill someone with guns get the first shot every time, everywhere, including during nightly burglaries and public shootings (where they might not necessarily pick me as their first target) which of course is not true. THAT is why your argument is retarded.

And it's not that I don't like people like you. I just don't like you.

Also, this time I really am done. Sorry about that.

Of course you are done, the longer you stay in this debate, the more silly you make yourself look! Your only argument for owning a gun is to defend yourself, and that has been proven many times to be a very weak argument based on paranoia.

No, I'm done because you're acting like a ¥Φ¤@*§#ϗ≠ with an abysmal attitude problem, flawed arguments, and a superior attitude towards anyone who does not agree with you. If you were a less unpleasant individual to debate with I might have continued debating the issue with you. Alas, you are not, and so I won't.

reply to post by liverlad


Considering no one has gone into a mall here with automatic weapons that makes your argument bunk.

Conserving ammo was probably on all their minds. They might as well be shooting in the air because that is what happens with automatics. You have fallen into the misinformed category. You think because a rifle looks scary that it is an assault rifle and it isn’t.

Technically any weapon used in an assault is an assault weapon that can be a knife as well. True assault weapons are fully auto or three round burst select.


I have been out of the Army for years but I have been collecting guns all my life. My AR 15 is not an assault weapon it is a semi-automatic rifle and because I have hunted with it, it is also a hunting rifle.

Originally posted by Gauss


No, I'm done because you're acting like a ¥Φ¤@*§#ϗ≠ with an abysmal attitude problem, flawed arguments, and a superior attitude towards anyone who does not agree with you. If you were a less unpleasant individual to debate with I might have continued debating the issue with you. Alas, you are not, and so I won't.

My argument isn't flawed, and if it was you would be able to tell why it was, but no instead you start insulting me by calling my arguments retarted (without backing your own up) and then saying i have an attitude problem, then say you are out.

Don't worry, i have had this argument many times with people like you, and it always ends the same, they end up throwing insults and leave with their tails firmly between their legs.

Original post by
member












OptimusSubprime

Every gun is an "assault weapon", because every gun can be used to assault someone. The media defines an "assault weapon" as a scary looking rifle that looks like a military rifle. The term "assault rifle" was coined by the anti-gun establishment to scare the ignorant masses into believing that an AR-15 is more dangerous than a regular old hunting rifle, when in fact it is not. Granted, the AR-15 has a higher round capability, but as a law abiding gun owner, who is supposedly trusted by the government to own a gun due to me passing a background check, if they can trust me with one bullet, then they can trust me with 50, or 100, etc..

There hasn't been ONE full auto weapon or a machine gun used in any of these mass shootings. The AR-15, as well as most semi-auto rifles are gas operated. When the trigger is pulled, the round fires. The gas pressure from the round firing pushes the bolt back, ejecting the spent cartridge and then chambering a new round. This process happens with every press of the trigger. A full auto, such as the M-16 operates the same way in regards to gas pressure, therefore it IS NOT a machine gun. The term machine gun gets misused by an ignorant, complicit media, and then repeated by the parrot American sheeple. The M-2 Browning .50 cal is a machine gun. In other words, the firing process is not gas operated, it is operated and rounds are cycled through a machine process.

99.999999% of all gun owners do not own full auto weapons. The first reason is that they are VERY expensive. A used, Vietnam era M-16 will start at $10,000 and go up from there. A full auto BAR (Browning Automattic Rifle) made famous by Bonnie and Clyde will start at $25,000 and go up to $50,000. An M-60 will start at $15,000 and go up from there. There is also the extensive paperwork, fees, and ATF federal background checks that one must go through in order to obtain the legal paperwork to own one of these weapons. So you see, this entire kneejerk reaction to this tragedy is nothing more than a bunch of ignorant talking heads trying to push forth an agenda, and an equally ignorant public buys into it and then makes emotionally based decisions based on falsehoods.

The AR-15 has gained a lot of media attention as of late. It has been called a machine gun... a full auto... a military grade high powered rifle... and none of that is true. The 5.56/.223 round is one of the weaker rifle rounds available. It starts to tumble in the air after a few hundred yards. A world class shooter could hit a target from about 700 yards with an AR-15, but the average Joe, even with training and experience would be good to hit a target from 400 yards, even with a scope. The AR-15 looks mean and scary. That's it. That is why it has gotten so much attention.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by liverlad

 

Considering no one has gone into a mall here with automatic weapons that makes your argument bunk.

Where is "here" may i ask? Florida? And where did i mention a mall? Considering someone has just days ago walked into a school and killed 20 children with an automatic weapon makes your argument bunk. Add to that the 50 or so similar inncedents that has happened in your country in the last 10 years.

Conserving ammo was probably on all their minds. They might as well be shooting in the air because that is what happens with automatics. You have fallen into the misinformed category. You think because a rifle looks scary that it is an assault rifle and it isn’t.

What? How do you know this? It seems to me that all killers cared about was killing as many innocents as possible before they end their own lives. Seriously mate, are you on a wind up or do you really think like this? If this is how the majority of gun owners think, the argument for gun control has just become stronger!

Technically any weapon used in an assault is an assault weapon that can be a knife as well. True assault weapons are fully auto or three round burst select.

True, but my point still stands that assault rifles are designed to be an offensive weapon and that is a fact, therefore noboddy should need one for defence. Knives have many uses and are not soley designed to kill things.

I have been out of the Army for years but I have been collecting guns all my life. My AR 15 is not an assault weapon it is a semi-automatic rifle and because I have hunted with it, it is also a hunting rifle.

edit on 19-12-2012 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-12-2012 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

Fair enough, i am not totally against guns and i am all for people who are fit and experienced enough to own guns for reasons like hunting, sports and pest control ect. My argument is about civillians having tougher gun laws only.

reply to post by Grimpachi


The guns i am talking about are semi-automatic, that still classes them as an automatic gun.

reply to post by liverlad

Where is "here" may i ask? Florida? And where did i mention a mall? Considering someone has just days ago walked into a school and killed 20 children with an automatic weapon makes your argument bunk. Add to that the 50 or so similar inncedents that has happened in your country in the last 10 years.

Here is where your argument completely falls apart. HE DID NOT USE AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON!!!!

The entire anti-gun movement is pushing a ban on weapons that look scary. The AR-15 looks scary but it is a single shoot per trigger squeeze.

They are trying to ban some rifles based on looks alone and leaving alone other rifles that have the exact same working parts but have a different outside look and that is it.

Originally posted by liverlad
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

The guns i am talking about are semi-automatic, that still classes them as an automatic gun.

No automatic is not the same as semi-automatic they are two different things.

Seriously you need to do some research because you have no idea what you are talking about. This isn’t that hard to understand.


Semi Auto

Automatic

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by liverlad

 

Where is "here" may i ask? Florida? And where did i mention a mall? Considering someone has just days ago walked into a school and killed 20 children with an automatic weapon makes your argument bunk. Add to that the 50 or so similar inncedents that has happened in your country in the last 10 years.

Here is where your argument completely falls apart. HE DID NOT USE AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON!!!!

The entire anti-gun movement is pushing a ban on weapons that look scary. The AR-15 looks scary but it is a single shoot per trigger squeeze.

They are trying to ban some rifles based on looks alone and leaving alone other rifles that have the exact same working parts but have a different outside look and that is it.

It doesn't fall apart at all, this whole time i have been using the term "assault rifle" to describe semi-auto rifles, not full-auto guns, which are actually defensive weapons because they are hard to move.

Semi-automatic guns, like the AK47 and M16 are designed as offensive weapons, and should not be in of civillian hands as i mentioned before.

And no, people aren't against guns because they look scary, they are against them because they kill and kill only. I don't care what a gun looks like, i only care what comes out of it. Seriously do you really believe this?

reply to post by liverlad


And how do you back up your argument that every person that tries to kill me will succeed without failure? Because that IS your argument. Because you feel it is impossible for me to survive someone trying to kill me, we therefor should not let me carry guns to defend myself with - because, again, there's not any chance I will be able to use it anyway, so why allow it? I think every single person on ATS aside from you realize how stupid this argument is. Alas, not you.

When I have a gun, I at least have a chance to defend myself against someone trying to shoot me. Whereas if by people like you I am forced to be unarmed because you are too scared of firearms to let anyone else have them - then if someone tries to kill me using a gun, I am # out of luck and most certainly dead.

The fact remains, people with common sense do not take a knife to a gunfight. When criminals have guns, civilians need to have guns as well to defend themselves with. Especially with the #ty rep sheet western law enforcement has. And I don't give a rat's ass how safe you think your country is. America is not Australia. Sweden is not Australia. You know nothing of either America nor my own country. If you feel safe in your country, great! I'm happy for you!

But do not profess to know whether or not people who live in America have a need of guns to defend themselves. America is not Australia! Your country may very well be lucky enough to have low crime rates. I don't know, and frankly, I don't care. But America is not so lucky, and its police is not very effective in protecting people. People, on the other hand, are.

Americans has a RIGHT, a definite NEED, and a WISH to own and carry firearms. YOU have ZERO right to tell them they are not allowed to do so, regardless of how scared of things that go boom you are, and regardless of how valid you think your arguments are.

Originally posted by Grimpachi

Originally posted by liverlad
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

The guns i am talking about are semi-automatic, that still classes them as an automatic gun.

No automatic is not the same as semi-automatic they are two different things.

Seriously you need to do some research because you have no idea what you are talking about. This isn’t that hard to understand.


Semi Auto

Automatic

edit on 19-12-2012 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

Are you for real? The clue is in the name, they both contain the word "automatic" so yes i do know what i am talking about. Really, you need to stop researching guns and start learnig some basic knowledge.

reply to post by liverlad


What are YOUR first hand experiences with guns?

Originally posted by Gauss
reply to post by liverlad

 

And how do you back up your argument that every person that tries to kill me will succeed without failure? Because that IS your argument. Because you feel it is impossible for me to survive someone trying to kill me, we therefor should not let me carry guns to defend myself with - because, again, there's not any chance I will be able to use it anyway, so why allow it? I think every single person on ATS aside from you realize how stupid this argument is. Alas, not you.

Welcome back.

It's all ifs, buts and maybe's with you. The basic fact is guns are desgined to kill, and they do a good job at that, if someone wanted to shoot you, you would be dead before you had time to react. I can understand that holding a gun might make you feel like superman, but the fact remains you still remain human and no matter how much you may believe it, a gun won't protect you from bullets. That is my argument and it's based on reality.

When I have a gun, I at least have a chance to defend myself against someone trying to shoot me. Whereas if by people like you I am forced to be unarmed because you are too scared of firearms to let anyone else have them - then if someone tries to kill me using a gun, I am # out of luck and most certainly dead.

Again, that's only in your mind, the odds are that you would be hit before you could react. If someone pulled a gun on you in a mugging, do you really thing you will have the time to pull out your gun, aim and shoot all before he pulls the trigger on the gun that is pushed up against your head? Keep dreaming.

The fact remains, people with common sense do not take a knife to a gunfight. When criminals have guns, civilians need to have guns as well to defend themselves with. Especially with the #ty rep sheet western law enforcement has. And I don't give a rat's ass how safe you think your country is. America is not Australia. Sweden is not Australia. You know nothing of either America nor my own country. If you feel safe in your country, great! I'm happy for you!

Enter a gun fight? Simple fact is people will common sense do not go to gunfights at all, unless you are in the army! There we go again, you have nothing to back up your silly arguments so you resort to the "you know nothing, i know everyhing so shut up". That indicates that you are losing this argument.

But do not profess to know whether or not people who live in America have a need of guns to defend themselves. America is not Australia! Your country may very well be lucky enough to have low crime rates. I don't know, and frankly, I don't care. But America is not so lucky, and its police is not very effective in protecting people. People, on the other hand, are.

I am not an Aussie, and America is not so lucky because they have terrible out dated gun laws. And if the gun owners are so protective where was they in all these mass shootings?

Americans has a RIGHT, a definite NEED, and a WISH to own and carry firearms. YOU have ZERO right to tell them they are not allowed to do so, regardless of how scared of things that go boom you are, and regardless of how valid you think your arguments are.

I have every right to express my opinions, and you have no right to do anything about it, so move along.

reply to post by liverlad


You do not have a clue. You must be willfully ignorant.

Take your movie knowledge and move on because you are showing stupidity here. I gave you the information and you still do not have a clue.

You need to do some research because you have the facts wrong with the shooting and do not have the basic knowledge of what a semi auto is and an automatic rifle is.

Since you can’t seem to comprehend through reading here is a video.



BTW the rifle he used is an assault weapon because it is fully automatic M16 a1. An AR-15 looks like it but is semi auto = one shot per trigger squeeze and is not an assault weapon.

If you do understand the difference at this point I have serious doubts about your intelligence.