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A response to: " Every possible reason for gun ownership addressed and countered"

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posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff


The problem with gun violence will be solved by giving people more guns.... Of course it will


Nah, just go ahead and roll over and take it.
Don't fight back, don't want all tools necessary to win the fight.

I can't believe that anyone is the US is taking this crap from a NON US citizen as anything other than the BS that is it.

You stay in England, please, do us all a favor.
For I fear that if you were to venture here and actually try to understand us, your head would explode or you may be shot by a deranged criminal with his fully automatic street sweeping AK47 with 150 round drum.

Probably shot dead 200 times over.




posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by macman
 





I do hope that you are validating your stars and flags (Not nearly the numbers as this thread) as just those that are on your side.


Yeah I think that is definitely part of it.

But the anti gun crowd is no where near as rabid or emotionally invested as the pro gun side so I think a tiny bit more thought goes into it for the anti side.

Within 5 min of this thread being posted it had 6 flags and all his posts had been starred an equal amount of times, the people doing the starring and flagging blatantly had no chance to read 4 full posts worth of replies before deciding if it was a valid argument or not.

Not saying you fit into this category but many on your side of the fence on this argument do
edit on 20/12/2012 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by macman
 


Why is anyone who disagrees with you guys automatically English?

Im an Aussie and since we are the only country who has been at your side during every armed conflict you guys have ever engaged in as a nation I would appreciate if you could show some respect and if you feel the need to insult something direct it at me as opposed to saying anything about my country



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by torqpoc
reply to post by Gauss
 


You assume too much Gauss, and seem to be very much the fanboy. Now kindly get back in your box if you haven't even the mental aptitude to refute my points, which are all factual and true. I dare you!

T


And so your argument devolves into calling someone who is not of the US who happens to agree with Americans who want to preserve the Constitution as written a fanboy?? How typical and disgusting. This is not a case of Us vs. Them. I do not look down on anyone from any country and in fact have many friends from all over the world even though I have never had the financial luxury to travel beyond my own countries borders. I will admit that some of the people that have been the most vocal about voicing thier opinion have been insulting. However I think the same can be said for people on both sides of the issue. I have seen some rather disparaging insults lobbed both ways. So I ask you, please get off your high horse and don't resort to personal attacks. It not only makes you look foolish but also greatly weakens the position of your viewpoint for you and all those who agree with your view.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


Ok, replace Brit with Aussie.

Everything is "Goo'd day" and shrimp on the barbie.
Everyone there surfs, has pet wallaby and kangaroos and drinks fosters.

Meh still.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff


Im an Aussie and since we are the only country who has been at your side during every armed conflict you guys have ever engaged in as a nation I would appreciate if you could show some respect and if you feel the need to insult something direct it at me as opposed to saying anything about my country


Oh geez, now we as a Country owe YOU???

Now I have seen and read it all.

How very uppity.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff


But the anti gun crowd is no where near as rabid or emotionally invested as the pro gun side so I think a tiny bit more thought goes into it for the anti side.

Yeah, you truly have no clue.


Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
Within 5 min of this thread being posted it had 6 flags and all his posts had been starred an equal amount of times, the people doing the starring and flagging blatantly had no chance to read 4 full posts worth of replies before deciding if it was a valid argument or not.

So, what is your point??
Jealous much?


Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
Not saying you fit into this category but many on your side of the fence on this argument do

Again, your categorization is pretty much driven by Hollywood, MSM, TV and BS.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 02:20 PM
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I love when the FACTS come into play
We need to get tougher on criminals not law abiding citizens.

Good post OP S&F



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by LightCraft
 





I have yet to see anything you have posted even closely resembling "factual and true". You're just spewing opinion. I have presented factual and true data and the problem is: it's very difficult to refute. Thus the emotional & opinionated responses. And when you repeatedly have your argument blown to pieces, you resort to petty BS. Classy.


The factual and true data you have posted, Im curious, is it as factual and true as your post regarding Australia banning guns to kill and displace the aboriginals


Im still waiting on the other thread for you to back this up with your "facts" or even a blog as a source.

Once again you get stars and flags because of a "hes on my side" mentality as opposed to having a valid argument or good points.
Your rebuttals to my points was unbelievably weak, so much so that you didnt even address my rebuttals to yours.
But of course the reason you didnt actually refute anything was because Im deluded or a troll


It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact your point of view is unbelievably contradictory to anyone with any common sense.

The problem with gun violence will be solved by giving people more guns.... Of course it will


I refuted everything you ever claimed in this thread. You need to re-read it all and see what you missed. Apparently you spent so much time running your mouth you missed half of what was said.

I am not coming back to the other thread. It's dead, which is probably why you're here


Pot call kettle black much?

My rebuttals speak for themselves, are concise, factual and best of all TRUE. And it's eating you ALIVE. The more you talk, the more idiotic you sound.

You have piss poor grammar and even worse spelling.

I got a real kick out of you whining because Australia stood by the US in every conflict. I am thankful of the brave men from Australia who have gone into harms way and fought along side my brothers. I'll bet my last wooden nickel you would be nowhere in those stats, you're too busy running your mouth to ever take the type of direction the military would give you. Thanks to the Aussie military, no thanks to you

edit on 20-12-2012 by LightCraft because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff


Once again you get stars and flags because of a "hes on my side" mentality as opposed to having a valid argument or good points.


WOW. Poop called, said vomit smells.

I do hope that you are validating your stars and flags (Not nearly the numbers as this thread) as just those that are on your side.



He's absolutely livid that his arguments were destroyed by facts in short order. Even more jealous that this thread is getting attention.

Can you say 'crybaby'?



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


Actually anti-gun are much worse... you treat every one like they are going to hurt you if they are able to defend themselves.... you want everyone disarmed, leaving them open to armed predators...

anti gun people rarely bathe

anti-gun people Need to clean your hair

not to mention the smell


I have a simple question for you?

What is the police response time for where you live in austrailia?



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by ripcontrol
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


Actually anti-gun are much worse... you treat every one like they are going to hurt you if they are able to defend themselves.... you want everyone disarmed, leaving them open to armed predators...

anti gun people rarely bathe

anti-gun people Need to clean your hair

not to mention the smell


I have a simple question for you?

What is the police response time for where you live in austrailia?


I would guess that it is way way slower than the US national average. Many of the areas I visited in Australia are incredibly remote and sparsely populated.

I see where you're going with this, and you're right. A criminal would have eons to do the dirt and get out well before help arrived in most cases.

Rest assured it will fall on deaf ears though.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by samerulesapply
Is the states the same now as it was when the constitution was created? If the answer is yes...what good is it? If the answer is no, why quote it as a source? Is it gospel?

Are the citizens of the states in the same predicament they were when that constitution was drawn up?

Excellent Questions!!!

No, the states are not the same as they used to be. They are now "for profit corporations" all the way down to the local level. They are listed on Dunn & Bradstreet as such. Anyone can look up their county and see it's a corporation.

There are two constitutions. One is : ....constitution OF the United states..... The other is : ....constitution FOR the United States.
There is also a difference between American and US citizen. A US citizen is a member/citizen of a foreign-owned, bankrupt corporation(1933). It's just too bad they can't see it. It's even in their documented legislation.

A long time ago it was "these united States". Plural. Now it's "the United States". Singular.
The constitution was drawn up to RESTRAIN the government. Not working too good. The people are being destroyed/oppressed because of their lack of knowledge. If they would wake up to what actually happened, we might have a chance. For a really good start, look up---United States Bankruptcy of 1933.

The federal zone, over which the sovereignty of the United States extends, is the District of Columbia, the territories and possessions belonging to Congress, and a limited amount of land within the States of the Union, called federal "enclaves".

The United States government is a foreign corporation with respect to a state. [citing In re Merriam's Estate, 36 N.E. 505, 141 N.Y. 479, affirmed U.S. v. Perkins, 16 S.Ct. 1073, 163 U.S. 625, 41 L.Ed 287]
[19 C.J.S. 883, emphasis added]

The term "States" in 26 USC 7701(a)(9) is referring to the federal states of Guam, Virgin Islands, Etc., and NOT the 50 States of the Union. Congress cannot write a municipal law to apply to the individual nonresident alien inhabiting the States of the Union. Yes, the IRS can go into the States of the Union by Treasury Decision Order, to seek out those "taxpayers" who are subject to the tax, be they a class of individuals that are United States citizens, or resident aliens. They also can go after nonresident aliens that are under the regulatory corporate jurisdiction of the United States, when they are effectively connected with a trade or business with the United States** or have made income from a source within the United States ....

I am a non-taxpayer. I am a non-resident alien to "The United States". I live in Wisconsin. Not the corporate State of WI. I also have no zip code as that is a Federal Zone designator.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by merkins
reply to post by samerulesapply
 


I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand the point your making.

My view is that government shouldn't be involved in a whole host of topics regarding human life. It's just by coincidence that one of those matters happens to be guns. The government has no right to tell people they cant have a gun or own pretty much anything. It's morally wrong for them to even try. That's what freedom is.



No, government shouldn't be involved in a whole host of topics regarding human life. I mean, c'mon, the Supreme Court ruled that we can travel, by automobile, unrestricted. We don't need permission. Then how come you can't travel without a license and registration?

It depends on your status. A US citizen is bound by voluntary contract to obey the corporate policy(statutes) of the Federal Corporation. They have no rights. Only privileges that are granted to them. They are not free.

Especially since 1933 when United States Inc went bankrupt and was taken over by it's creditors. US citizens, and everything they own, are the collateral. When the default happens, the collateral will be collected.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


I understand. You hate guns and you seem to have utter contempt for people that accept guns. The OP put forth sound, logical arguments to counter your points. To me, the majority of your responses come off as the ramblings of a person concerned more with arguing this issue as opposed to finding a solution. More so with the way you use those silly emoticons.

The core of the issue is this: This world is not a safe place. Humans have been massacring each other since the dawn of civilization. A ban on firearms will do exactly nothing to stop this. The cave man used a stout tree branch or a rock. The modern man may use a firearm. Take your pick out of the multitude of choices in the technology of weaponry. I will go so far to say that the USA is not in the grip of an epidemic of violence. My goodness, if you think the violence is bad now, go look up some history. The number of violent deaths has decreased massively in the last century or two.

Why? Human beings, as a group, or as a society, or as a nation, came together to devise ways of making life less harsh than it was in the past. It has succeeded to a great extent yet people still fall through the cracks. We are not perfect. We abandon certain members of society. We ignore their plight. The pious shrug their shoulders and go their own way. The powerful allow their scheming to ignore these people and go their own way. These recent massacres are the result of a societal problem. They are not the result of a firearm control problem.

In fact, the hypersensitive finger pointing, the overly emotional cries of woe, the dramatic nonsense of political posturing ensure that this societal problem continues. In an indirect way, your arguments ensure that gun violence and massacres will continue. Ignoring the real problem will ensure that.

The societal problem may be linked to poverty, unjust regulation of people, unresolved or untreated personal problems, the parasitic system of debt, the lack of positive education, the bureaucratic red tape, and a host of other insubstantial, intangible systems of control. Firearms are not the issue my good Australian. They are one of the carrots that prevent society from addressing the real issues.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by LightCraft
 






5) If guns are banned then only criminals will have guns




Every country has criminals with guns, it has been suggested if you really want a gun you can get one. This is true for criminals with resources to buy them and access to people who deal in them. I doubt very much that the majority of people who have committed these recent shootings fit into this category.


It is very easy to get a gun anywhere in the world. And criminals do have the resources to buy them, how else would they get them? If they don't, they just steal them. Your 'doubts' don't constitute FACTS.


That's the thing. These people would have access to illegal guns if you ban them because you would have a different kind of illegal arms trader in America created after the banning. When you have a collapsing economy, and a widespread gun culture subjected to an abrupt gun ban you are going to create the average joe arms trader. People that are down on their luck and invested in AR's and AK's before the guns were banned. So then you have people you would never expect to sell illegal arms selling them, and people who would normally never know who to go to for an illegal weapon suddenly know 2 or 3 people selling them. So you ban guns and end up turning once law abiding citizens into criminals, and you STILL DON'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

You know what is a bigger problem than guns? The fact that the woman that drafted the gunban in the 90's (the one that Clinton admitted had NO EFFECT on gun violence) is still in the government drafting this gun ban! We need to kick these career politicians to the curb!


Also OP this is a great thread. I raised several of these points with the poster you are replying too, but I didn't take the time to articulate in the way you did here, so good job.
edit on 20-12-2012 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


We owe you respect? We don't owe you anything. Not that it matters, but did you serve in any of these conflicts?


You have put forth ridiculous arguments claiming they were final and inarguable and each time, in both your own thread, and here in this thread you were thoroghly disciplined. All that effort to what? Try to justify and convince us to give up a right that your country long ago surrendered in total ignorance because your politicians didn't let a tragedy go to waste? I think you deserve the opposite of respect for that.



posted on Dec, 20 2012 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by liverlad

Originally posted by LightCraft


The big fear here is being powerless to prevent bad things happening to good people.
That's my point, many people only feel the need to own one because they live in fear, and why do you think that is? My guess is because America has terrible gun laws.

No, it's not because of having "terrible gun laws". It's because we have alot of terrible people.



posted on Dec, 21 2012 @ 02:07 AM
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Originally posted by LightCraft

Originally posted by torqpoc
reply to post by Gauss
 


You assume too much Gauss, and seem to be very much the fanboy. Now kindly get back in your box if you haven't even the mental aptitude to refute my points, which are all factual and true. I dare you!

T


I have yet to see anything you have posted even closely resembling "factual and true". You're just spewing opinion. I have presented factual and true data and the problem is: it's very difficult to refute. Thus the emotional & opinionated responses.

And when you repeatedly have your argument blown to pieces, you resort to petty BS. Classy.


So since no one is actually able to backtrack to the original comment I made, let me google that for you, sorry quote that for you:

A nation of paranoid deluded people, governed by a murderous and lying government, itching to pull out their semi and fully automatic weapons to defend the mighty US of A.

Comical doesn't even come close to the reality of this situation.


No let's dissect this statement, again.

America as a nation is paranoid is the first statement.
Paranoia - noun
[mass noun]
a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance, typically worked into an organized system. It may be an aspect of chronic personality disorder, of drug abuse, or of a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which the person loses touch with reality.
unjustified suspicion and mistrust of other people

So do you really need me to come up with examples of how Americans are paranoid? Seriously? Why are you all carrying guns if not from direct paranoid delusion that someone is about to invade the US, since your 2nd amendment is directly about arming yourselves against invaders both foreign and domestic. It is heaped in paranoia. I'm sorry, but please refute the point, argue against it. Don't post, like Gauss, an emotionally driven rebuttal if you can't simply STICK TO THE POINT.

America as a nation is delusional/deluded is the next statement.
Definition of delusion
noun
an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder:
the delusion of being watched
[mass noun] the action of deluding or the state of being deluded:
what a capacity television has for delusion

Again do you truly need someone to hold your hand so you can walk through this? You are deluded as a people on many levels. The first being you think you are in control, you're not. The next one is that you are governed by a government for the people. You're not. The next one is that your guns will protect you, they won't. It is delusional to think so. You think everyone is out to get you, shall we continue?

governed by a murderous and lying government was the next statement.
Ok now seriously, if I have to prove this to you then you're a) on the wrong forums, b) both delusional and idiotic.

itching to pull out their semi and fully automatic weapons to defend the mighty US of A was the final statement
You're posting in a post, about the desire to continue carrying guns and fighting for the 2nd amendment. Does it get any more crystal clear or am I wasting my time here?

All of the above and my entire statement is both factual and true. Now what is it with you guys being unable to stick to the point and arguing against it if you so desire? I mean come on it's not that difficult really.

T



posted on Dec, 21 2012 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by Darkphoenix77

Originally posted by torqpoc
reply to post by Gauss
 


You assume too much Gauss, and seem to be very much the fanboy. Now kindly get back in your box if you haven't even the mental aptitude to refute my points, which are all factual and true. I dare you!

T


And so your argument devolves into calling someone who is not of the US who happens to agree with Americans who want to preserve the Constitution as written a fanboy?? How typical and disgusting. This is not a case of Us vs. Them. I do not look down on anyone from any country and in fact have many friends from all over the world even though I have never had the financial luxury to travel beyond my own countries borders. I will admit that some of the people that have been the most vocal about voicing thier opinion have been insulting. However I think the same can be said for people on both sides of the issue. I have seen some rather disparaging insults lobbed both ways. So I ask you, please get off your high horse and don't resort to personal attacks. It not only makes you look foolish but also greatly weakens the position of your viewpoint for you and all those who agree with your view.


Someone who is not from the US who loves the US as much as Gauss does is a fanboy by the collequial use of the term. It is not an insult, to think it is shows someone is seriously sensitive. If you're going to be a fanboy, be one, be proud of being one but don't cry when someone says you are. Disgusting? Are you made of paper too? What are you doing posting on ATS if you can't cope with the term or use of the term fanboy. Seriously?

"Mental aptitude to refute my points" - My point has been made many times, not one person has even attempted to refute my points, hence you all lack the mental aptitude to do so, or the desire, either way I simply don't care until someone does. It is called sticking to the point and the topic at hand. Try it please, it will be refreshing for all concerned.

As for being on a high horse, again what are you doing on ATS? Did you think this was Reddit or something?

T


edit on 21-12-2012 by torqpoc because: (no reason given)



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