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Strong Suggestions of Voter Fraud speaks to need of reform!

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posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 07:32 PM
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whether or not this story has any validity, the OP's main point remains valid.

There is an inherent grift built into the system of tallying votes. It is in the easy
manipulation of electronic voting.

I have said this many times here that to ensure a true democratic process in voting
the votes should be counted by people and verified by people.

There will always be those who try to manipulate vote counts--this is a given, and no
system can be perfect. But to allow the electronic voting system to continue gives
these people a HUGE advantage to use to manipulate the vote.

If you want to fix the system, so that your vote has the highest chance of counting and the least
chance of being manipulated enact these few step as policy

!. All votes cast on paper ballot
2. All votes counted by hand
3. All voters to show ID and name and ID to be included on each ballot cast (no anonymity)
4. All tallies shall be made public immediately and all ballots and tallies kept secure.

End electoral college
End voter registration

-----------------

This leaves out absentee votes, but enacting the above policy would remove the greatest
risks to election security.

Could this ever happen? Probably not. Why? The people that want to manipulate the system wouldn't
allow it




posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 07:42 PM
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You can't win an election by merely having people vote a 2nd or third time -- the numbers don't add up.

If more people voted -- then check the election ballots and the voting machines themselves.

Seriously, this idea that you could bus tens of thousands of people around and they'd all commit felonies so that MAYBE you get three extra votes per person is ludicrous.

Now Romney's team did suppress a lot of votes, and probably flipped 5 - 10% in a few counties, but the Demographics are overwhelming. Other than electronic cheating, Republicans are going to lose the elections more and more as time goes on. They could not possibly have had enough people vote more than once to hold their ground the way they did.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 07:45 PM
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reply to post by rival
 


On the upside -- if Republicans became concerned about how accurate elections are -- then maybe they'd push for the removal of electronic devices and make everything hand ballots with verification (like you suggest). They will lose more elections this way -- but they've been convinced by the "Liberal media" that Republicans are a majority so it doesn't matter what I say.

I'm all for accurate elections. It was likely Ron Paul got ripped off by Romney's electronic supporters -- so the more people who get screwed by elections, the more people who will start complaining.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 08:53 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


Once again, here is the math:

 


001 Lakewood Pk Vil Hall

Total Votes: 3273. Cards Cast: 6550. (3273 x 2 = 6546)

Reg. Voters: 4815. Total Votes: 3273. (68% turnout)


006 Orange Blossom Business Center

Total Votes: 1174. Cards Cast: 2352 (1174 x 2 = 2348)

Reg. Voters: 1849. Total Votes 1174. (63.5% turnout)


007 Havert Fenn Ctr

Total Votes: 1280. Cards Cast: 2566 (1280 x 2 = 2560)

Reg. Voters: 1996. Total Votes: 1280. (64.1% turnout)

 


And so on. At no point does the "total votes cast" ever exceed number of registered voters, as the OP claimed. It should also be obvious that the "cards cast" referred to TWO CARDS per ballot, meaning each vote should have resulted in 2 cards cast - this is typical when most ballots are multiple pages (cards). In a perfect world barring scanner mishaps or misfeeds, "cards cast" would be precisely x2 of total votes, and as we can see here, that was nearly the case.

Comparing "cards cast" to the number of registered voters was a bogus way of presenting the data. TOTAL VOTES should be compared to TOTAL REGISTERED VOTERS. I can understand them tracking the number of cards, to ensure they were all counted, but that number cannot be compared to number of registered voters without first being divided by 2, when there are 2 cards per ballot.

This can be proven by taking the 'cards cast', dividing by 2, then dividing that number by registered voters to get the percentage of turnout. For the first example:

6550 / 2 = 3275.

3275 / 4615 = 68%

68% matches the voter turnout as we saw earlier.

NOW do you see? The entire topic is an exercise in futility because it's premise is flawed.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 09:26 PM
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I'm just dropping back in for a quick note because it's really quite rude to leave one's own thread. At least I've always thought so. A few folks will never accept this, but I started the thread with the best of intentions, even prior to the title change. I've felt for months that regardless of who won (and that was said early and often, no pun intended) the system overall badly needed reform. It was humiliating....outright humiliating....to read this:


For the head of Libya's national election commission, the method by which Americans vote is startling in that it depends so much on trust and the good faith of election officials and voters alike.



"What's very unique about the way the Americans do it, it's not the process, it's the confidence that's placed in the process," she said. "This is what lacks in other countries. They say if this would happen in Arab countries it would not work the way it does in the United States."
Source

Given that most of the world doesn't think on 4 year, resetting time cycles like we do, I can only assume no one had the heart to explain things to him or actual examples like 2000. Nothing has fundamentally changed in the problems except, perhaps, they've gotten worse for more wide spread use of electronic machines.



In this case, someone took one heck of a risk in all likelihood by guerrilla taping inside the polling place. I'm glad he did too. It doesn't matter who it was rigged by or for, it's the fact any of them were at all. Prior to that day, others had claimed they saw the same happen in reverse although they didn't get videos I ever saw so this is enough to show how it actually happened and is beyond the lines of theory. (And the people who did that by configuration of the hot areas of the screen ought to go to prison for it. May as well start there to be fair)

It's not the loss. It's not who won. Not for this part of the problem anyway. Romney's win would have just changed the nature of the challenges to fixing things if they can be fixed at all.

Anyway.... To close this for what I said in opening, I spent awhile looking back through the threads prior to election day and going back a few months. It's not hard to do when you type in the specific search terms and a wide variety of dates for threads come back to offer such a snapshot. There have also been enough postings here and other threads to keep this sufficiently general. I was first rather happy....I found more than enough to make some points with. Then, I began to find too much. In fact.. So much ..SO VERY much for examples of what some folks around the political forums are saying today vs. what they said a few weeks or a couple months ago that 2 things became instantly apparent.

1. It's an impassioned and emotional time....and people all around are making many points mixed so deeply with that, it's not really viable to debate. This is where I was very wrong to throw up a thread like this. My bad...and heck, I'm far from unemotional myself. Also, my bad.

2. After reading all that, it does change things in my mind and how workable debate on much of anything constructive can be ...in fairness to all sides...until emotion from VERY wild election cycle by any standards..winds down.

I really just didn't realize until spending that time looking back to the recent past, how much truth all that holds. So...Errr...where's that "delete thread" button? lol... Maybe just a 'Keep Frozen for near future" button? I don't change or regret a thing about my premise and points. The source could have been better.....and the timing was Epic Fail. Heck...and I can see that.

Sorry All! (holds paw out for slapping with promise not to Author any more political threads until things calm down a lot)

*Don't let me kill discussion or anything either...I'm just exiting and noting I'd have left this thread for another time, given hindsight.
edit on 11-11-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 10:42 PM
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Greetings WRabbit2000,

More likely voter fraud is linked below.

Voting Machine Fraud - hussein carried Philidelphia by 99%

5.5 Million Vote Disparity

Votes not counted in key states

Not just Florida, Votes, outnumbered voters in Colorado!

Disqualified Military Absentee Ballots - Would have made a difference.

Voter Fraud Made the Difference!

Keywords for the search engines: Acorn



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 10:58 PM
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Well we obviously know that there was no fraud from extra votes. But I still say that all voters should have to check in with a social security number. Then they compare it to the persons ID. If it all matches, then they can proceed to the voting machine..

And honestly who cares if anyone knows how we vote. Just punch your soc number in a voting machine, insert your drivers license or ID, then vote. This would remove nearly all instances of fraud.

There should also be a question relating to the observance of illegal activity. If you answer yes, you are asked to input your phone number and are contacted later.

Exit polls should also collect soc and ID. And the databases of both should be compared in an audit. Any disrepancy, the voter needs to be contacted. In other words exit polls would now have 2 functions.

In the day and age that fraud is everywhere, ID is mandatory. We have 4 years to work on it. Lets get started now.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 11:22 PM
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reply to post by elouina
 


Tying ID requirements directly to voting would abolish the idea of the secret ballot every voter is entitled to though in principle I agree with what you saying in that we need to certify eligible voters at the polls in addition to certifying the tabulated results.
Electronic voting is fine so long as there is open source code and a verifiable paper trail in case of a recount.



posted on Nov, 11 2012 @ 11:29 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


Hey Beez,

If I can show you irrefutable proof of massive fraud during the GOP primaries will you wager your signature? You want to see some clear proof?
edit on 11-11-2012 by Donkey_Dean because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by Grimpachi
The Florida ballot for Seminole county was 2 cards front and back some people did not fill out the entirety of both forms. I do not see what is so hard to understand here.


It doesn't matter if people didn't fill out both cards, the card is still cast. Those cards are fed into machines which counts them. Notice there is a special number for blank cards?


NO. If a card is not turned in, it is not cast. Or, for all we know, if a blank card is turned in, it might still not be considered cast. This Florida election had a very long ballot, including many constitutional measures. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a portion of the FL voters didn't fill in the second voting card and maybe didn't even turn it in. Perhaps, from your last sentence, it is the case that blank cards will be counted, but unturned-in cards will not. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

Moreover, if there were egregious cases of over-voting and playing with vote tallies, wouldn't the victimized campaign be making a stink over it? I'm not saying that they would definitely contest the election, but that they would certainly bring up the issue of dubious results. The fact that no such story has manifested itself even on Fox news suggests that it just hasn't occurred.
edit on 12-11-2012 by MrInquisitive because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 10:59 AM
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I personally know two people that were told that they had already voted when they showed up to their polling place last Tuesday. When they assured the people working there that they had not voted, they were allowed to sign in and vote. Someone else had already cast a vote in their name, and we have a secret ballot, so those illegal votes counted.
This was in Pennsylvania. We had a voter ID law that passed the legislature, but was prevented from being enacted for this election by the courts. I didn't have to show ID to vote, so I could have said that I was anyone living in my district and voted for them.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 12:39 PM
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Just saw this on facebook and thought it was relevant to the topic. Sorry if it has already been posted I am a page behind on the thread. Feel free to remove if redundant...

Programming voter machines



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


I too live in PA.....my son voted for the first time this year. He got his ID card in the mail long before the election AND we verified online that he was indeed registered to vote and at the proper precinct. When we got there they were not going to let him vote because he wasn't entered into the system. ....we pushed it, he had his voter ID card (and happily showed his photo id
) and they did let him vote. System at best was inefficient.....



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
reply to post by beezzer
 


Hey Beez,

If I can show you irrefutable proof of massive fraud during the GOP primaries will you wager your signature? You want to see some clear proof?
edit on 11-11-2012 by Donkey_Dean because: (no reason given)


No more wagering, but I'll condemn fraud regardless of who does it.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by cry93
I don't want to baffle you with anything other than the facts. This post is simply untrue.

According to Wiki that latest population count for this county is just over 192,000. The official election map has 66,631 votes for Obama and 56,295 for Romney. Just under 800 votes went to other candidates. Well within normal limits for the population count.

Some of these things are easily refuted with just a 2 minute search. Get thee to the nearest MAP and see for yourself. Some trumped up PDF released to enrage people who don't want to do the research is just reckless.
edit on 11-11-2012 by cry93 because: (no reason given)


I am much more concerned about how pathetically low the "other candidates" vote count is rather than how often florida cheats in the elections, whether through incompetence or planned. The campaign system rellies on contributions rather than national funds for the most part. This cannot be changed easily and both big parties will continue to purposefully ignore the core issues.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I want to share this as a piece for context. It may be confusing to some folks, why people like me would become infuriated over seeing this story and after the election is over. We all agree it's over. Even Romney himself agrees it's over. So indeed....Yes...It IS over and this isn't about that. No one is even joking about re-votes or anything like it. THAT would be more insane than the fraud this and other areas of Florida linked in the story (and showing their own County-level print outs for support) point to.

The idea here is a need for reform...BADLY needed reform and preferably before 2014. After 2000, the Dems DEMANDED reform and got almost none of it. Now, it's our side....and since the Dems rightly noted the need first, one would think the joint desire for reform could find no better time to get teeth and get some things DONE. No one yet knows or can even guess who is running in 2016. So NOTHING done in reform could even be joked as to target one guy or side over another.

However....Why do results like that and 99% turn out blowout numbers cause confusion and even rage in some folks? This is why. THIS is the state they say these miracles of one sided voting happened in. This isn't New York or Maine where it's so blue the Smurfs would feel out of place. Hardly......in fact, not even close.


(Source)


That's Allen West's district. Too bad, I liked him. He is disliked by R and D alike so the fraud will not be investigated.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by rival
whether or not this story has any validity, the OP's main point remains valid.

There is an inherent grift built into the system of tallying votes. It is in the easy
manipulation of electronic voting.

I have said this many times here that to ensure a true democratic process in voting
the votes should be counted by people and verified by people.

There will always be those who try to manipulate vote counts--this is a given, and no
system can be perfect. But to allow the electronic voting system to continue gives
these people a HUGE advantage to use to manipulate the vote.

If you want to fix the system, so that your vote has the highest chance of counting and the least
chance of being manipulated enact these few step as policy

!. All votes cast on paper ballot
2. All votes counted by hand
3. All voters to show ID and name and ID to be included on each ballot cast (no anonymity)
4. All tallies shall be made public immediately and all ballots and tallies kept secure.

End electoral college
End voter registration

-----------------

This leaves out absentee votes, but enacting the above policy would remove the greatest
risks to election security.

Could this ever happen? Probably not. Why? The people that want to manipulate the system wouldn't
allow it


I am pretty sure counting 150 million casted ballots by hand exponentially increases the error factor and cheating factor. The machine method of counting is incredibly more reliable and faster. And no annonymity is a horrible idea. The state has NO BUSINESS knowing who you vote for. Once you register that is plenty!

Next thing you know we are going to hear people want rfid chips to ensure identification. It is a slippery slope to hell. Better to stay off the slope as much as possible! just to illustrate a point many communists and fascists have been locked up and tortured just because the status quo thinks these people are a pain in the ass for them. Freedom of speach does not last forever and thus steps need to be taken to ensure it lasts as long as possible. I don't want to live under any dictatorship, right/left or first/second class.



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 





I am pretty sure counting 150 million casted ballots by hand exponentially increases the error factor and cheating factor.


I am pretty sure it wouldn't. And my post is about how to stopped rigged voting en masse, I am
not concerned about a few errors, or a few partisan hacks attempting to change the vote count
of their precinct by adding a few votes to their favorite candidate. This type of vote tampering
would average out as you have cheaters from both sides attempting to add or subtract votes.

And your point is moot if each count is verified by more than one observer.


The machine method of counting is incredibly more reliable and faster.


You are wrong again.

This video shows testimony before congress detailing how easily electronic voting machines
can be rigged. The testimony proves the machines can be rigged to show ANY outcome, and
the expert testifying further adds that there is NO WAY to tell if the machine has been tampered
with after the fact. There is more evidence available. Many videos of hands-on tampering can
be found online if you care to look it up.




And no annonymity is a horrible idea. The state has NO BUSINESS knowing who you vote for.
Once you register that is plenty!


There no longer exists a valid reason to continue with voter anonymity in national elections. The
notion that votes cast should be anonymous is as antiquated an idea as the (once needed)
electoral college.

And there also is no valid reason to continue with voter registration. Your SS# and ID suffice.
Once the electoral college is moth-balled, there would be no valid reason to prevent any US
citizen from voting at any precinct in the nation. Voter registration is a waste of resources
that would be better used verifying hand counted ballots.
edit on 12-11-2012 by rival because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by cry93
I don't want to baffle you with anything other than the facts. This post is simply untrue.

According to Wiki that latest population count for this county is just over 192,000. The official election map has 66,631 votes for Obama and 56,295 for Romney. Just under 800 votes went to other candidates. Well within normal limits for the population count.

Some of these things are easily refuted with just a 2 minute search. Get thee to the nearest MAP and see for yourself. Some trumped up PDF released to enrage people who don't want to do the research is just reckless.
edit on 11-11-2012 by cry93 because: (no reason given)


I am much more concerned about how pathetically low the "other candidates" vote count is rather than how often florida cheats in the elections, whether through incompetence or planned. The campaign system rellies on contributions rather than national funds for the most part. This cannot be changed easily and both big parties will continue to purposefully ignore the core issues.


Do you have a solution? I am not being flippant here.

Edit

Change starts from one person with an idea and it grows. Are you suggesting that each candidate is given a set amount of funds and sent on their way?

If so I don't know that I agree with that. As a private citizen I have the right to support, through financial means or otherwise, the candidate of my choosing. If anything I believe we should take a good look at the Super PACs who funded Romney. These same chuckleheads spent more attempting to defeat Obama than they would have spent under Obama's tax plan. So they lost money on a losing campaign.

edit on 12-11-2012 by cry93 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 12 2012 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by rival
 


There is no way I can ever agree with your nonsense and I highlighted why. If the voting machines have a problem then we need new voting machines or the old ones need to be made tamper-proof. If you have a problem with your brakes, you don't buy a new car, you simply fix the brakes.

If the government were to implement your ideas it would take america back 50 years. Not good!





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