Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

My statement may not be supported by the literature you have read, but literature I've read and rituals I've gone through supports my statement. Nor does the quote you posted prove anything other than the fact you are taking a quote out of context. You should probably read the entire Chapter and find out what Pike was talking about.

reply to post by Erbal

I'm not pretending. To the Eastern Star, the star is a symbol that is Christian in nature as is our rituals. It's no stretch to believe in such a thing.

reply to post by KSigMason


You just said the symbol is ambiguous... now you are implying it's unambiguous?
And why am I not surprised you keep repeating it's Christian in nature without even attempting to give any explanation of why it's Christian in nature.

reply to post by KSigMason


Are you referring to a quote I poster from Albert Pike, Albert Mackey, or Manly P Hall?

PS

I am still waiting for any evidence that Manly P Hall recounted his claims about masonry after becoming a 33rd degree. Masons on these boards love to say his quotes were taken out of context and that he wrote all that before ever becoming a mason and yet if he found them to be false would it not behoove Mr. Hall to have retracted his claims on freemasonry so as not to tarnish masonry?

I would so love to have that issue resolved sometime.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
... if you can prove monotheism is CURRENTLY a requirement, I will consider your claims about monotheism to be true and valid.

Good, get ready to do so.

I can't even find the word monotheism anywhere on the website for the Mass. Grand Lodge.

Then you really did not look too hard again:

Masonry is not a religion. But it is one of the few platforms where men of all monotheistic faiths - Christians (including Catholics), Jews, and Muslims - can come together because it is open to all men who believe in a Supreme Being... Grand Lodge of Massachusetts Top 10 Questions

That's too big of a difference in specific wording from the past to the present to reasonably consider them as saying the same thing. If all your evidence is from specific wording in 1935 and 1953, and all the websites/information from 2012 are totally different and makes no specific mention of requiring monotheism, that's a strawman argument and it looks really bad on you.

Masonry has not changed, the requirements are the same as they have always been. Is this clear now?

You are ridiculous. Your new link says nothing to support your assertion monotheism is a current requirement.

It says in plain English it's open to all men who believe in a Supreme Being.
FriedBabelBroccoli and I have conclusively and irrefutably proven "Supreme Being" is not synonymous with monotheism.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
... if you can prove monotheism is CURRENTLY a requirement, I will consider your claims about monotheism to be true and valid.

Not to mention you completely ignored what the Grand Lodge of New Hampshire said:

Freemasonry accepts applications from men who are of good character, recommended by those within the fraternity, and who believe in one God. With the exception that one must be monotheistic...

Are you trying to tell me that the above is not a requirement?

OK, after 36 pages of discussion, you finally found a single Grand Lodge website that states, in no uncertain terms, they require monotheism.

How many Grand Lodge websites make no specific mention of monotheism as a requirement, only theism in general? I looked through a dozen of them and I didn't find any mention of monotheism. I even called 5 lodges and never was I told monotheism is a requirement.

You've already explained in depth that each Grand Lodge is sovereign and has the freedom to adopt whatever landmarks they want. And you went into depth about how there are 3 universal landmarks in regular Freemasonry. (also take note the oldest known landmarks make no mention of monotheism)

Why does the commission on information for recognition state a belief in god (theism in general) and not a belief in one god (monotheism)? And why are so many Grand Lodges consistent with theism as a requirement (belief in a supreme being is theism)? And why have we only found 1 grand lodge website that requires monotheism?
www.recognitioncommission.org...

reply to post by Erbal

To the Eastern Star's intent and interpretation, the star is Christianity. This doesn't change the fact that symbols don't have a singular, exclusive definition. What one group sees the symbol representing, another may see it differently.

The emblem of the Order is a five-pointed star with the white ray of the star pointing downwards towards the manger. In the Chapter room, the downward-pointing white ray points to the West. The character-building lessons taught in the Order are stories inspired by Biblical figures:

- Adah (Jephthah's daughter, from Judges)
- Ruth, the widow
- Esther, the wife
- Martha (sister of Lazarus, from the Gospel of John)
- Electa (the "elect lady", from II John), the mother

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

I was referring to the only quote in the post I replied to (the Albert Pike one). I talked about that quote here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I am still waiting for any evidence that Manly P Hall recounted his claims about masonry after becoming a 33rd degree.

I'll have to dig around to find them again, but I'll have to remember it.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Erbal

 

To the Eastern Star's intent and interpretation, the star is Christianity. This doesn't change the fact that symbols don't have a singular, exclusive definition. What one group sees the symbol representing, another may see it differently.

The emblem of the Order is a five-pointed star with the white ray of the star pointing downwards towards the manger. In the Chapter room, the downward-pointing white ray points to the West. The character-building lessons taught in the Order are stories inspired by Biblical figures:

- Adah (Jephthah's daughter, from Judges)
- Ruth, the widow
- Esther, the wife
- Martha (sister of Lazarus, from the Gospel of John)
- Electa (the "elect lady", from II John), the mother

So the use of the inverted pentagram is Christian in nature because each of the 5 points are assigned a character-building lesson that uses a Biblical figure?

How exactly does that make the actual use of the pentagram "Christian in nature?"
Why should we believe that is the only intended interpretation by the OES, especially when we consider the Pike quotes of symbol deception that FriedBabelBroccoli has pointed out?

reply to post by KSigMason

The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry.

This quote? I think you are confusing me with someone else . . . but on that note continuing on in this linear thought:

The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain.

It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages.

Oh it seems as though I have taken yet another quote out of context as this may or may not be the quote you were speaking of.

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion and its teachings are instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devolvedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, Charity. Here we meet as brethren to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other gladly, are lenient to each other’s faults, regardful of each other’s feelings, ready to relieve each other’s wants," Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma, pp. 213-214.

I am fairly certain it is this quote you referring to in actuality though.

"Though Masonry is identical with Ancient Mysteries, it is so in this qualified sense; that it presents but an imperfect image of their brilliancy; the ruins only of their grandeur, and a system that has experienced progressive alterations, the fruits of social events and political circumstances,"
Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma, page 624

It could also be this one though, ahhh could you please remind me which one it was?

"We teach the truth of none of the legends we recite. They are to us, but parables and allegories, involving and enveloping Masonic instruction; and vehicles of useful and interesting information. They represent the different phases of the human mind, its efforts and struggles to comprehend nature, God, the government of the Universe, the permitted existence of sorrow and evil. To teach us wisdom, the folly of endeavoring to explain to ourselves, that which we are not capable of understanding,

we reproduce the speculations of the Philosophers, the Kabalists, the Mystagogues and the Gnostics."
Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma p. 329.

I wish NetworkDude and AugustusMasonicus were around back in the day to inform Mr. Pike that he was a noob and didn't know anything about freemasonry and that it had no connection to the mysteries or gnosticism as I am sure it would have cleared up a lot of controversy for the present day masons.

Maybe NetworkDude could also inform Mackey that there are no similarities between Mithraism and freemasonry whatsoever and it was an absolutely absurd concept to ever put forth.

Like Pike, Mackey came to and published new conclusions about the origins of Freemasonry after the main corpus of his works were in print. The establishment of Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076 in 1886 in and the publication of Robert Freke Gould’s History of Freemasonry in 1885 ushered in the “authentic school” of Masonic research. Both Pike and Mackey appear to have been influenced by the new insistence on concrete historical evidence as the sine qua non of theories about Freemasonry. Mackey’s thoughts on Masonic origins, in his posthumously published 1906 History of Freemasonry, reflect his new understanding of the ancient mysteries.



It has been a favorite theory with several German, French, and British scholars to trace the origin of Freemasonry to the Mysteries of Pagans, while others, repudiating the idea that the modem association should have sprung from them, still find analogies so remarkable between the two systems as to lead them to suppose that the Mysteries were an offshoot from the pure Freemasonry of the Patriarchs.

In my opinion there is not the slightest foundation in historical evidence to support either theory, although I admit the existence of many analogies between the two systems, which can, however, be easily explained without admitting any connection in the way of origin and descent between them.

Is modem Freemasonry a lineal and uninterrupted successor of the ancient Mysteries, the succession being transmitted through the Mithraic initiation which existed in the 5th and 6th centuries; or is the fact of the analogies between the two systems to be attributed to the coincidence of a natural process of human thought, common to all minds and showing its development in symbolic form?

For myself, I can only arrive at what I think is a logical conclusion; that if both the Mysteries and Freemasonry have taught the same lessons by the same method of instruction, this has arisen not from a succession of organizations, each one a link of a long chain of historical sequences leading directly to another, until Hiram is simply substituted for Osiris, but rather from those usual and natural coincidences of human thought which are to be found in every age and among all peoples.[4]

Oh wait sorry I was confused by the natural processes of human thought and so saw a connection between the practices of the two organizations.

Albert Pike clearly believed Freemasonry was not much older than the 1717 formation of the premier Grand Lodge in London, but many of its symbols adopted to teach our lessons were of far greater age. Here is Pike’s straightforward declaration, written shortly before his death but after Morals and Dogma, his revisions of the rituals, and most of his voluminous works.

[Freemasonry] has no secret knowledge of any kind. There was, in the ancient initiations, something like the modem spiritualism; but there is nothing of this or of magic in Freemasonry....

It is of greater antiquity than other orders or associations; but it is not so old as to give it the superiority once supposed; for it is now certain that there were no Degrees in Masonry two hundred years ago; and that the Master’s Degree is not more than one hundred and sixty years of age.

But those who framed its Degrees adopted the most sacred and significant symbols of a very remote antiquity used, many centuries before the Temple of King Solomon was built, to express to those who understood them, while concealing from the profane, the most recondite and mysterious doctrines in regard to God, the universe and man....

I have, at least, arrived at this conviction after patient study and reflection during many years.[3]

Okay so Pike is laying out here where the symbols were taken from and identifies them with pre-Christian eras. I think it is very clear now where the symbols were taken from. Makcey admits there is an incredible similarity between the practices of both the mysteries and freemasonry but then chalks it all up to coincidence. The chances of it all being a coincidence are laughably miniscule.

I can see the possibility of there not being a direct lineage from order to order were one could identify members. However I am concerned with the idea, the spirit of the 'thing' which can be traced through all the 'great' nations of history.

reply to post by Erbal

Do you assume all who use the swastika are Nazis or racist?

Neither Pike nor the Scottish Rite has anything to do with the Eastern Star.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

You did in fact post that first quote here:

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli

"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry." (Morals and Dogma, p.819)

To which I had responded.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Erbal

 

Do you assume all who use the swastika are Nazis or racist?

Neither Pike nor the Scottish Rite has anything to do with the Eastern Star.

I would only assume the use of a swastika is related to Nazi's or racism if the context of it's use makes those implications.

You've shown me nothing that suggests the OES's use of the inverted pentagram is inherently Christian. It doesn't involve Christian teachings or philosophies, it only uses somewhat obscure biblical figures for OES teachings.

And the OES is inherently Masonic in nature, it's a body of Masonry. So when Pike, who is arguably the most prolific and revered Mason of all time, writes with confidence that initiates are intentionally misled by false interpretations of symbolism, that the true explication is only intended for adepts... well, naturally, you must assume that paradigm extends to all bodies of Masonry, OES being no exception.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Not your point at all, you have been arguing over and over that they believe the devil rules in hell, which has been proven thoroughly false and unsupported.

Indeed which has been a popular belief since Dante.

The concept of hell is not strictly Christian as I stated earlier there are different words for the different 'after-life' experiences of which Hades was one and another was Gehenna.

I never siad it was strictly a Christian concept. The combination of Satan and Hell is.

You love to insult people calling them dopey, idiotic, retarded and so on.

Only if they opt to use intellectually dishonest tacts like you did with your 'worshipful' nonsense.

And to your Grand Lodge quote. Finally you managed to find a single lodge which required monotheism. Erbal has gone through hell and high water for you to produce one measly scrap of evidence that does not speak for any lodge other than the New Hampshire.

And keep completely ignoring all the others that clearly discuss monotheism on their sites. I have not even linked one Constitution to this point which would also have this verbage included. Face it, you are wrong.

It does not disprove the fact that monotheism holds no singular ownership of the term 'Supreme Being' as pagans have used it quite frequently.

I know this may be hard for you to grasp but when the requirement is belief in 'A' Supreme Being that means ONE.

Oh and founding masons of this country blatantly used pagan prayers on the American seal.

It would be nice if you linked sources to this and then explained what it has to do with my Original Post.

Originally posted by Erbal
You are ridiculous. Your new link says nothing to support your assertion monotheism is a current requirement.

The ridiculousness is firmly in your camp as you ignore the obvious again and again.

Tell me, why is it mentioned then? If they clearly state that it is where men of monotheistic religions can gather where do you infer that it is somehow open to the non-monotheistic.

It says in plain English it's open to all men who believe in a Supreme Being.
FriedBabelBroccoli and I have conclusively and irrefutably proven "Supreme Being" is not synonymous with monotheism.

And like Broccoli you ignore the clear and obvious modifier 'a' as in ONE.

Becoming a member of a masonic body just, upright and regular requires the belief in one supreme source of all things...the creator himself, God, the one and all, the source ultimate, the deos, theos, the radiant one, lucifer ( just kidding), all-ah, the divine immanent and transcendent, the light that is ALWAYS at its meridian (En-dios), the source of the ultra-vast-pulsating field of energy from whence we derive these universes, the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, the unspeakable, Brahma, the Infinite, the one Father, the one triad, the ultimate of ultimates.

Originally posted by Erbal
OK, after 36 pages of discussion, you finally found a single Grand Lodge website that states, in no uncertain terms, they require monotheism.

And this was the part where you had agreed to concede that I was correct. It appears you are going to shift the goal posts and backpedal. Classy.

How many Grand Lodge websites make no specific mention of monotheism as a requirement, only theism in general? I looked through a dozen of them and I didn't find any mention of monotheism. I even called 5 lodges and never was I told monotheism is a requirement.

I have given you quite a few and have not even begun to link Grand Lodge Constitutions which have this listed in them as well. Just because every Grand Lodge website is identical in configuration does not mean the Landmarks and not being observed.

You've already explained in depth that each Grand Lodge is sovereign and has the freedom to adopt whatever landmarks they want. And you went into depth about how there are 3 universal landmarks in regular Freemasonry. (also take note the oldest known landmarks make no mention of monotheism)

I amde it very clear they can adopt any Landmarks they want as long as they kept the three that ALL of them observe which was supported by the evidence.

Why does the commission on information for recognition state a belief in god (theism in general) and not a belief in one god (monotheism)?

I gave you the 1956 adoption that had it clearly indicated.

And why are so many Grand Lodges consistent with theism as a requirement (belief in a supreme being is theism)?

And here you are again, ignoring that it is belief in 'a' supreme being.

And why have we only found 1 grand lodge website that requires monotheism?

What does it matter? Every request for links you have made has been satisified but you have now taken the unseemly tact of saying that this is still not good enough. Do the proper thing and admit that this is correct.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


1. Dante was a poet and not recognized by any officialdom in the Christian religion. I seriously question your mental integrity when you try and push this off as anything other than the ancient version of a Saturday morning cartoon.

2. 'A' coming before 'Supreme Being' does not mean monotheism. It simply reinforces the concept that there can only be one 'Supreme' per the definition. Jupiter was the 'Supreme Being' of the Roman pantheon. It means there are no others higher in authority at that point.

3. After all these pages of arguing and constantly stating that few lodges hold sway over the others do you really think managing to post a single lodge requiring monotheism means anything. It is not in the ancient landmarks and you merely refuse recognize that fact.

4. The use of 'worshipful' master is in no way dopey as it was already argued by your members that it is a title to give respect and reverence to the individual which fits in with the definition.

Definition of worship
noun

1 [mass noun] the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity: worship of the Mother Goddess ancestor worship

religious rites or ceremonies, constituting a formal expression of reverence for a deity: the church was opened for public worship

great admiration or devotion shown towards a person or principle: the worship of celebrity and wealth
archaic honour given to someone in recognition of their merit.

2 [as title] (His/Your Worship) chiefly British used in addressing or referring to an important or high-ranking person, especially a magistrate or mayor: we were soon joined by His Worship the Mayor

Definition of dopey
adjective (dopier, dopiest)
informal

stupefied by sleep or a drug: she was under sedation and a bit dopey
idiotic: did you ever hear such dopey names?

Great admiration shown towards a person or principle. It does not mean one must worship a god or 'Supreme Being' in this sense whatsoever.

On Hell and the devil combination. There is none other than the devil ends up being tortured forever along with those who embraced his ideology. Other religions do have torture such as the Egyptians one was thrown to the devourer if they were not just in their life. The Greeks had Tartarus which was their place of torment. The Aztecs and Mayans had a combination of hell and demons more in common to your perception as they had underworlds were demons ruled.

All in all you have a poor understanding of the concept of hell and seem to still think a devil figure rules over it.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
1. Dante was a poet and not recognized by any officialdom in the Christian religion. I seriously question your mental integrity when you try and push this off as anything other than the ancient version of a Saturday morning cartoon.

His work still became ingrained in the consciousness of the populace which was the point I made in my Original Post.

2. 'A' coming before 'Supreme Being' does not mean monotheism. It simply reinforces the concept that there can only be one 'Supreme' per the definition.

The fact that it is modified with the word 'a' and that numerous Grand Lodge websites also mention monotheism makes it fairly obvious that this is the doctrine of Masonry.

3. After all these pages of arguing and constantly stating that few lodges hold sway over the others do you really think managing to post a single lodge requiring monotheism means anything. It is not in the ancient landmarks and you merely refuse recognize that fact.

The Landmarks have not changed, this has also been made clear by the recognition status of the 51 Grand Lodges in regards each other.

4. The use of 'worshipful' master is in no way dopey as it was already argued by your members that it is a title to give respect and reverence to the individual which fits in with the definition.

And in a Masonic context it has nothing to do with worshiping which you already knew prior to posting your dopey remarks.

All in all you have a poor understanding of the concept of hell and seem to still think a devil figure rules over it.

I have no concept of Hell because I do not believe in it in any configuration. The genesis of this is the fact many Christians have a different concept based on popular and religious misconceptions.

reply to post by Erbal

Well, so you would call Buddhists, who use the swastika symbol, racists and Nazis?

You're right there is nothing Christian about the Eastern Star The heroines upon which our ritual is based on are pulled from the Bible (Old and New Testament). The official interpretation of the star is one that denotes it as a Christian symbol. I don't care what it has been used as or who has used it, we don't need their permission to use the symbol as we see fit.

It doesn't involve Christian teachings or philosophies...

How do you know?

Pike's trademark is with the Scottish Rite and neither Pike nor the Scottish Rite have anything to do with the Eastern Star. The Eastern Star is a recognized body of Masonry, but it is not a part of the Craft Masonry system of degrees nor a part of the two Rites in America (Scottish and York).

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

1. Are you denying the impact of Dante's Inferno on the perception of what Hell is?

2 & 3. I'm staying out of this one.

4. The definition of "worshipful" and its historic use is different than the definition of "worship". The fact that 'worshipful' essentially means 'one worthy of respect' is undeniable. One who holds this honorary title is not worshiped by anyone.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Erbal

 

Well, so you would call Buddhists, who use the swastika symbol, racists and Nazis?

You're right there is nothing Christian about the Eastern Star

The heroines upon which our ritual is based on are pulled from the Bible (Old and New Testament). The official interpretation of the star is one that denotes it as a Christian symbol. I don't care what it has been used as or who has used it, we don't need their permission to use the symbol as we see fit.

It doesn't involve Christian teachings or philosophies...

How do you know?

Pike's trademark is with the Scottish Rite and neither Pike nor the Scottish Rite have anything to do with the Eastern Star. The Eastern Star is a recognized body of Masonry, but it is not a part of the Craft Masonry system of degrees nor a part of the two Rites in America (Scottish and York).

Why are you even bothering with your blatant strawman arguments? Who do you think they will fool?

I just said in plain English I judge the CONTEXT of the use of a symbol. You respond by asserting I would view any use of a swastika as nazism or racism? GTFO with your strawman arguments and stop acting like a child.

I'm glad you agree there is nothing Christian about the USE of the OES star despite the fact some of the OES lessons involve obscure biblical figures. It's still painfully obvious you are unable to give a good explanation as to why the use of the inverted pentagram is Christian in nature. I wouldn't be surprised if the OES doesn't even mention Jesus Christ in a single lesson or story, but hey, they are totally Christian because they say so, right?

OES is a Masonic body. If Pike was talking about deceptive symbolism in Masonry, by extension he was also talking about Masonic bodies like the OES.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

I admitted that the New Hampsire Grand Lodge requires monotheism.

You claimed ALL regular Masonic lodges in the US require monotheism. That is the claim you have failed miserably to prove true. Together we have proven ALL regular Masonic lodges in the US require theism in general.

You've proven so far 1 lodge currently requires monotheism but I've shown a handful of other lodges that only require theism in general. You can't claim amity and recognition between lodges means if one lodge requires monotheism they all require monotheism... they all require THEISM and monotheism is only a specific type of theism.

You've proven that in the past there could very well have been a universal landmark of monotheism circa 1953. I've proven that currently, in the US, the universal landmark is now only written as requiring theism in general.

And if we dig into the history of Masonic landmarks it becomes very clear there were no original monotheistic landmarks at all. So any monotheistic landmarks or requirements are relatively new to Freemasonry, and clearly it was short lived as well considering it's not a universal landmark. Currently monotheism landmarks are totally and completely OPTIONAL. And so far we have only found 1 Grand Lodge that has decided to adopt this option which goes beyond the bare minimum of the universally required theism.