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Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

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posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
I'm glad you agree there is nothing Christian about the USE of the OES star despite the fact some of the OES lessons involve obscure biblical figures.

I guess my sarcasm is lost on you.


It's still painfully obvious you are unable to give a good explanation as to why the use of the inverted pentagram is Christian in nature.

I posted this already, but you obviously overlooked it.


I wouldn't be surprised if the OES doesn't even mention Jesus Christ in a single lesson or story...

And you would be wrong.


OES is a Masonic body. If Pike was talking about deceptive symbolism in Masonry, by extension he was also talking about Masonic bodies like the OES

No he wasn't, but you can believe what you like, it's just wrong.




posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
You've proven so far 1 lodge currently requires monotheism but I've shown a handful of other lodges that only require theism in general. You can't claim amity and recognition between lodges means if one lodge requires monotheism they all require monotheism... they all require THEISM and monotheism is only a specific type of theism.

You've proven that in the past there could very well have been a universal landmark of monotheism circa 1953. I've proven that currently, in the US, the universal landmark is now only written as requiring theism in general.


You just can not concede that you are incorrect. Let me help you again:


III. DECLARATION OF PRINCIPLES:

Pursuant to the settled policy of this Grand Lodge to define and reaffirm, from time to time, certain of the fundamental principles and rules of conduct governing the practice of Freemasonry in this Masonic jurisdiction, it is declared that:

5. It is religious in that it teaches monotheism Constitution of the Grand Lodge of North Carolina




PREAMBLE

...

It is religious in that it teaches monotheism...Constitution of the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts



PREAMBLE

...

It is religious in that it teaches monotheism...Constitution of the Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia



It seems that they have forgotten that Freemasonry is a place where all Brothers from any monotheistic religion can meet in friendship and harmony without fear of persecution. Address by Most Worshipful Glenn Trautmann Grand Master of Masons for the State of New Jersey, 2012



The Constitution of the Order specifies that a belief in Deity is one vital requirement for membership. Thus no atheist or agnostic can become a Freemason. Every Lodge opens and closes with benefit of prayer and a deep and sincere reverance for Deity is manifest in all Masonic ceremonies.

On the other hand, a member is never questioned about his personal religious beliefs. Thus within the Fraternity are found Christians, Jews, Moslems, Budhists, and those of other monotheistic faiths. From a Lodge Operating in the Grand Jurisdiction of Ohio



Michigan Masonic Law

DECLARATION OF PRINCIPLES OF THE GRAND LODGE

...

It is religious in that it teaches monotheism...Constitution of the Grand Lodge of Michigan


Why do you keep insisting that this is not the case when Grand Lodge after Grand Lodge, including the Grand Master of my home State, make this clear in their Constitutions and other locations?

I can continue to quote Constitutions, some dating back to the 18th and 19th centuries that carry the same verbage.

Masonry does not change in this regard, the three main Landmarks are always present.


And if we dig into the history of Masonic landmarks it becomes very clear there were no original monotheistic landmarks at all. So any monotheistic landmarks or requirements are relatively new to Freemasonry, and clearly it was short lived as well considering it's not a universal landmark.


Really? 'Relatively new'? Do you think I make points based on lack of historical prededent? Think again:


The Commission has stated as the immecliate object of the lnculcation of the principles antl spirit of Masonry the followlng:
1. To preserve as a lanrlmark of civilization the princlple of monotheism Communication of the Grand Lodge of Minnesota, 1921



Constitution of the Grand Lodge of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts

...

is monotheistic in its requirements and teachings Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, 1918



Currently monotheism landmarks are totally and completely OPTIONAL. And so far we have only found 1 Grand Lodge that has decided to adopt this option which goes beyond the bare minimum of the universally required theism.


No, I think I just gave you quite a few more that adhere to the same principles. You can continue to be stubborn and I can continue to link more sources. The choice is all your's.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 03:53 PM
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Please, someone, anyone, pour some cement around the goal posts, so this thread can be finished.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
Please, someone, anyone, pour some cement around the goal posts, so this thread can be finished.


You seemed shocked.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 04:19 PM
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Due to the deceptions they have done through out centuries, I am inclined to think there is more going on in them lodges than worshipping Venus, or some Sun God. I'm sure most people really don't want to know once they get an initial whiff.

Yes I have heard much about this organization; but being on the outside I couldn't tell you.

Even with confirmed Freemasons in my family-they don't like telling me anything when I ask.
Pushed a big button on one of my Uncle's when I said, "Ask one to be one" At a family reunion and FIVE years later he acts awkward (nervous) when I see him. He is in a Baptist church every Sunday (I quit:whorah for free spirit)
and do not think he's the type to worship Jesus one day, and Lucifer on another...speaking of worship...anyone see the lodge video linked on Bossip? Looks like some of them worship exotic dancers......

edit on 5-11-2012 by macross703 because: typo



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by macross703
Yes I have heard much about this organization; but being on the outside I couldn't tell you.

Pushed a big button on one of my Uncle's...


After 700+ posts this is what you felt warranted contribution to the thread? Telling us you have not heard much and that you push your Uncle's buttons?

What about addressing the Original Post?



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Let me be more specific: freemasons haven't told me jack about what they worship. And when I pressed my uncle who is a 33rd he seemed mad and nervous. Figured since the web is full of disinfo I would ask.....the disinfo about masons was more filling than the answers I've gotten from real masons. Guess that's why everyone believes the hype-they give political answers to everything (at least to my face).



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 04:53 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 

Do you see a distinction between REQUIRING monotheism to be a member and TEACHING monotheism to members?

I am and have been contesting your claim that ALL regular Masonic lodges currently REQUIRE MONOTHEISM.
We have established all regular Masonic lodges currently require THEISM.

Let's assume you can provide us with 50 quotes about Masonry TEACHING monotheism... how does that prove monotheism is a current REQUIREMENT in Freemasonry?



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Do you see a distinction between REQUIRING monotheism to be a member and TEACHING monotheism to members?


And who would we be teaching Monotheism to? Aethists?

You also, as usual, glossed over additional evidence that disproves your assestions. The Grand Lodge of North Carolina was quite clear that monotheism is part of its 'rules of conduct'. That the Grand Lodge of Michigan listed monotheism as one of its principles. That the other Grand Lodges had monotheism as part of their Constitution which are the rules. Are you familiar with how a constitution works?


I am and have been contesting your claim that ALL regular Masonic lodges currently REQUIRE MONOTHEISM.
We have established all regular Masonic lodges currently require THEISM.


You keep right on ignoring the examples I just gave you.


Let's assume you can provide us with 50 quotes about Masonry TEACHING monotheism... how does that prove monotheism is a current REQUIREMENT in Freemasonry?


Even if you were to throw those out what of the others that are much clearer then the absurd burden of proof that you have concocted in your head? Ones where the words 'rules' or 'principles' are used?

You have failed again and again to refute any of my points and instead resort to massive goal post shifting and blatant ignoring of contradicting evidence direct from several states Grand Lodges. I can cite lodge after lodge which has the same verbage on their sites as what I posted above. Your only arguement is that I have not posted enough. That is a poor arguement, but if you want to continue that tact I will post more links until you tire of this line of attack or I have linked something from every state that I can find.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by macross703
Let me be more specific: freemasons haven't told me jack about what they worship.


Then your input here is grossly irrelevant.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by macross703
 

What deception?

reply to post by macross703
 

Each Mason worships according to his individual faith.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Do you see a distinction between REQUIRING monotheism to be a member and TEACHING monotheism to members?


And who would we be teaching Monotheism to? Aethists?
Really? So now you digressed into full blown trolling?

Do you see a distinction between what is required for membership and what is taught to those who gained membership?

I am asking for proof of your claim that all regular US lodges REQUIRE monotheism to become a member.
You brought proof that many lodges TEACH monotheism to it's members.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
You also, as usual, glossed over additional evidence that disproves your assestions. The Grand Lodge of North Carolina was quite clear that monotheism is part of its 'rules of conduct'. That the Grand Lodge of Michigan listed monotheism as one of its principles. That the other Grand Lodges had monotheism as part of their Constitution which are the rules. Are you familiar with how a constitution works?
You quoted the same phrase from different sources: "It is religious in that it teaches monotheism"

The subject is the REQUIREMENTS FOR MEMBERSHIP.

The Grand Lodge of North Carolina website only says the practice of Freemasonry teaches monotheism. It makes no mention of monotheism being required but it does specifically say atheism is excluded.

The Grand Lodge of Michigan says the same exact thing about teaching, in the same exact context, as NC. But Michigan's website says this about it's requirement for membership:

Do you believe in God?
No atheist can become a member of a Freemasonry Lodge. Masons do not care what your individual faith is ­ that is a question between you and your God - but we do require that a man believe in a Supreme Being.

Theism in general is the requirement. Only atheism is excluded.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
You keep right on ignoring the examples I just gave you.
I haven't ignored them, I just have no reason to consider teaching monotheism to be synonymous with requiring monotheism for membership.

They have driving school. It teaches people how to drive a car.
Generally they only require money and sobriety to gain membership into their school for a certain amount of lessons.
Just because driving school TEACHES people how to drive does not equate to driving schools having a REQUIREMENT that you must know how to drive on any level.

Give me a valid reason why teaching monotheism inherently means all 'students' involved must be monotheists.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Let's assume you can provide us with 50 quotes about Masonry TEACHING monotheism... how does that prove monotheism is a current REQUIREMENT in Freemasonry?


Even if you were to throw those out what of the others that are much clearer then the absurd burden of proof that you have concocted in your head? Ones where the words 'rules' or 'principles' are used?

You have failed again and again to refute any of my points and instead resort to massive goal post shifting and blatant ignoring of contradicting evidence direct from several states Grand Lodges. I can cite lodge after lodge which has the same verbage on their sites as what I posted above. Your only arguement is that I have not posted enough. That is a poor arguement, but if you want to continue that tact I will post more links until you tire of this line of attack or I have linked something from every state that I can find.

You've failed to prove it's currently a universal requirement in *all* (regular) US Masonic lodges that it's members must believe in the existence of one and only one God.

You have proven that currently *all* US Masonic lodges require that it's members must believe in the existence of at least one God.
You have proven that *all* US Masonic Grand lodges have the option to change their faith-based requirements as long as they exclude atheists.
You have proven that currently, many US Grand lodges have chosen to stick with the default requirement of theism.
You have proven that currently at least 1 US Grand lodges has chosen to adopt monotheism as a requirement instead of theism in general. (New Hampshire Grand Lodge is the only example so far)

I am not being unreasonable. I am not moving the goal posts.

Stop playing games, stop with the ad hominem attacks, stop with the blatant deflection of very clear and concise questions, stop with the strawman arguments, stop with the bait and switch game, stop with the double speak... just stop the madness.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Well by your logic in arguing that Dante has molded the consciousness of hell I can then claim that the P2 Lodge scandal has molded the image of Freemasonry.

It does not change the fact that Dante had no Biblical support nor any support from within the ranks of any of the major Christian religious bodies and so you are thoroughly disproved. The only thing you have proved is that many people (especially you) have been mislead by popular culture to believe in a fallacy.



Definition of worshipful
adjective

1feeling or showing reverence and adoration: her voice was full of worshipful admiration
archaic entitled to honour or respect.

2 (Worshipful) British used in titles given to justices of the peace and to certain old companies or their officers: the Worshipful Company of Goldsmiths



Definition of worship
noun

1 [mass noun] the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity: worship of the Mother Goddess ancestor worship
religious rites or ceremonies, constituting a formal expression of reverence for a deity: the church was opened for public worship
great admiration or devotion shown towards a person or principle: the worship of celebrity and wealth
archaic honour given to someone in recognition of their merit.

2 [as title] (His/Your Worship) chiefly British used in addressing or referring to an important or high-ranking person, especially a magistrate or mayor: we were soon joined by His Worship the Mayor

verb (worships, worshipping, worshipped; US also worships, worshiping, worshiped)
[with object]

show reverence and adoration for (a deity): the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods
[no object] take part in a religious ceremony: the family worshipped at Trinity Church
feel great admiration or devotion for: she adores her sons and they worship her


great admiration or devotion shown towards a person or principle

I am not misinterpreting anything as it is indeed a form of worship which is given unto one titled worshipful. Plain and simple. If you don't like it go argue with the Oxford Dictionary.

And if we are going to include popular culture as legitimate arguments for the definition of concepts and symbols then the down 5-pointed star is far better known to be associated with Satanism than it is to some pseudo-Biblical fantasy the masons have construed (which even Pike admits have nothing to do with Christianity).

And the whole point about the 'Supreme Being' was? It has already been shown worship (admiration or devotion towards a person or principle) is not only given unto a deity as evidenced by the worshipful masters title and the dictionary.

Augustus I hope when you visit Willy Wonka you do not fall into a giant vat of chocolate. That has to be how candy is made right? It has shaped popular culture . . .


Also if they demand monotheism then why are masons responsible for placing a prayer to the pagan god Jupiter on the American seal? Please enlighten me oh worshipful BRAH of the order.
edit on 5-11-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Really? So now you digressed into full blown trolling?


No, that would be you who asks for certain links or quotes and then ignores them when they prove his points irrelevant.


Do you see a distinction between what is required for membership and what is taught to those who gained membership?


Do you see the distinction that we would not be teaching to those who would not be already applying those principles?


I am asking for proof of your claim that all regular US lodges REQUIRE monotheism to become a member.
You brought proof that many lodges TEACH monotheism to it's members.


Why would we teach monotheism to someone who was not? We are not a fraternity that looks to change a person's viewpoint on their faith. They either come withit or they do not.


You quoted the same phrase from different sources: "It is religious in that it teaches monotheism"

The subject is the REQUIREMENTS FOR MEMBERSHIP.


Which is included in the respective state's constitutions which are the requirements.


The Grand Lodge of North Carolina website only says the practice of Freemasonry teaches monotheism. It makes no mention of monotheism being required but it does specifically say atheism is excluded.


It isays this in their constitution which makes it the law of the jurisdiction.


The Grand Lodge of Michigan says the same exact thing about teaching, in the same exact context, as NC. But Michigan's website says this about it's requirement for membership:

Do you believe in God?
No atheist can become a member of a Freemasonry Lodge. Masons do not care what your individual faith is ­ that is a question between you and your God - but we do require that a man believe in a Supreme Being.

Theism in general is the requirement. Only atheism is excluded.


Again, it is in their constitution which is the law of the jurisdiction. What does not compute with you that Masonic constitutions govern what does and can happen in that jurisdiction?


They have driving school. It teaches people how to drive a car.
Generally they only require money and sobriety to gain membership into their school for a certain amount of lessons.
Just because driving school TEACHES people how to drive does not equate to driving schools having a REQUIREMENT that you must know how to drive on any level.


Masonry is not like beginners driving school, it is like an advanced level school. You must have a desire to be better, not just to get by so a person must have their faith, a monotheistic one, already in place.


Give me a valid reason why teaching monotheism inherently means all 'students' involved must be monotheists.


Because they would get little to nothing out of the ritual.


You've failed to prove it's currently a universal requirement in *all* (regular) US Masonic lodges that it's members must believe in the existence of one and only one God.


Not 'one God', but a (singular) Supreme Being.


You have proven that currently *all* US Masonic lodges require that it's members must believe in the existence of at least one God.
You have proven that *all* US Masonic Grand lodges have the option to change their faith-based requirements as long as they exclude atheists.


I have not submitted evidence for or argued such.


You have proven that currently, many US Grand lodges have chosen to stick with the default requirement of theism.
You have proven that currently at least 1 US Grand lodges has chosen to adopt monotheism as a requirement instead of theism in general. (New Hampshire Grand Lodge is the only example so far)


Why do you ignore Massachusetts, who's constitution included this requirement in 1918, North Carolina, who lists this as a rule of conduct, Michigan, who delcares this one of their principles and my home state of New Jersey where the Grand Master reiterated what I already know, that Masonry 'is a place where all Brothers from any monotheistic religion can meet in friendship and harmony without fear of persecution'?


I am not being unreasonable. I am not moving the goal posts.


You most certainly have.


Stop playing games, stop with the ad hominem attacks, stop with the blatant deflection of very clear and concise questions, stop with the strawman arguments, stop with the bait and switch game, stop with the double speak... just stop the madness.


The madness is your obvious and continued ignoring of every link that refutes what you say. Address why every one of the Grand Lodges I linked makes use of the word 'montheism'. Are they posting this for their health or because this is the doctrine of the jurisdiction?

I will continue to post links from all 51 Grand Lodges if I can find one. Eventually you will get the picture.



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Well by your logic in arguing that Dante has molded the consciousness of hell I can then claim that the P2 Lodge scandal has molded the image of Freemasonry.


You cna claim whatever you want. Dante wrote it and people ate it up.


It does not change the fact that Dante had no Biblical support nor any support from within the ranks of any of the major Christian religious bodies and so you are thoroughly disproved. The only thing you have proved is that many people (especially you) have been mislead by popular culture to believe in a fallacy.


The Bible is not the be all and end all of sources for use in religous discussion. And it would be quite hard for me to be misled when I mentioned Dante in my Original Post.


great admiration or devotion shown towards a person or principle

I am not misinterpreting anything as it is indeed a form of worship which is given unto one titled worshipful. Plain and simple. If you don't like it go argue with the Oxford Dictionary.


Considering this defintion is the one that applies to Masonry I would have to say you are purposefully misinterpreting and misrepresenting the usage:


archaic-entitled to honour or respect.



And if we are going to include popular culture as legitimate arguments for the definition of concepts and symbols then the down 5-pointed star is far better known to be associated with Satanism than it is to some pseudo-Biblical fantasy the masons have construed (which even Pike admits have nothing to do with Christianity).


Only a fool would argue that popular culture does not alter concepts and defintions. Take the word 'fag', what does/did it mean? It has changed meaning several times due to pop cultural influences, from a bundle of sticks, to a cigarette to a derogatory name for a homosexual.


And the whole point about the 'Supreme Being' was? It has already been shown worship (admiration or devotion towards a person or principle) is not only given unto a deity as evidenced by the worshipful masters title and the dictionary.


Uh, no. Only by your obviously disengenious use of the word and the purposeful avoidance of the proper context in regards Masonry.


Also if they demand monotheism then why are masons responsible for placing a prayer to the pagan god Jupiter on the American seal? Please enlighten me oh worshipful BRAH of the order.


What are you talking about and what does this have to do with my Original Post? I asked you before for links to sources regarding this silliness and you still blather on about the same nonsense. Are you losing your marbles?



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 

It does not matter what the popular culture surrounding Dante is. You claimed that the official belief of the organized religion was the same and has been proved to be quite different from you 'comical' idea.

In regards to the pagan prayer?

en.wikipedia.org...


Classic Source of the Motto

According to Richard S. Patterson and Richardson Dougall:

Annuit cœptis and the other motto on the reverse of the Great Seal, Novus ordo seclorum, can both be traced to lines by the Roman poet Virgil. Annuit cœptis comes from the Aeneid, book IX, line 625, which reads, Jupiter omnipotens, audacibus annue cœptis.[13] It is a prayer by Ascanius, the son of the hero of the story, Aeneas, which translates to, "Jupiter Almighty, favour [my] bold undertakings."


This has also been confirmed by David Ovason (freemason).

Was this the source you were looking for? Or did you want me to link you to several texts which identify the actual body of masons responsible for creating the seal?

Why not use the term your 'honour' and actually be using the adjective derivative of the form as opposed to using a disingenuous definition? Worshipful is linked to worship and the title as well.

Or is this from the secret book of masonic nomenclature and definitions I have yet to discover?
edit on 5-11-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Nov, 5 2012 @ 08:35 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 

Why do you keep refusing to answer my simple and plain-worded question?

Do you see a distinction between TEACHING and REQUIREMENTS FOR MEMBERSHIP?



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 08:15 AM
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reply to post by Erbal
 


In your eyes, how many references would make you believe that monotheism is a requirement?

That is a very simple question which deserves a very simple answer.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 08:17 AM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Was this the source you were looking for? Or did you want me to link you to several texts which identify the actual body of masons responsible for creating the seal?


I for one, know I would love to see this list of "masons" who created the seal.


Edit to add:
Here is a FANTASTIC place to look for that kind of thing.
edit on 6-11-2012 by network dude because: Broccoli is better steamed.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
It does not matter what the popular culture surrounding Dante is. You claimed that the official belief of the organized religion was the same and has been proved to be quite different from you 'comical' idea.


I gave you quotes from persons among the clergy but you discounted them. I am not concerned with whether or not you find them to be adequate, only that you asked for a source and I gave you them.


Or did you want me to link you to several texts which identify the actual body of masons responsible for creating the seal?


Considering Thomson, who created the final design, was not a Mason I would love to see you post more off-topic nonsense in an attempt to rewrite history.


Why not use the term your 'honour' and actually be using the adjective derivative of the form as opposed to using a disingenuous definition?


Are you asking why a fraternity with ancestry at least back to the 1600's is using archaic English in its definitions? Is this not somewhat self explanatory to you or do you think it should alter its usage to suit your approval and uncomprehending sensibilities?


Worshipful is linked to worship and the title as well.


Not in the context it is used in with masonry my disengenious friend.


Or is this from the secret book of masonic nomenclature and definitions I have yet to discover?


If you thinnk the Oxford Dictionary has secret definitions then I do not now what to tell you.




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