Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

Originally posted by Erbal
Do you see a distinction between TEACHING and REQUIREMENTS FOR MEMBERSHIP?

Considering Masonry by its very principles requires that a man join with his faith already established I do not see a distinction in regards membership. We can not convert a person to monotheism to teach them monotheism, they must already have that belief prior to us giving him further experiences.

I am astounded by how simple the concept is but how adamantly you refuse to grasp it.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Erbal

 

In your eyes, how many references would make you believe that monotheism is a requirement?

That is a very simple question which deserves a very simple answer.

The easiest way is to show that currently the standard of recognition has explicit wording that can only be interpreted as monotheism specifically being a requirement... (the New Hampshire Grand Lodge is a perfect example of explicit wording for a monotheism requirement)

www.recognitioncommission.org...

The Commission on Information for Recognition, which works directly with the Conference that meets annually who has the authority to change the standards of recognition, states this in plain English:

The standards of Recognition are summarized as follows:

1 Legitimacy of Origin
2 Exclusive Territorial Jurisdiction, except by mutual consent and/or treaty.
3 Adherence to the Ancient Landmarks � specifically, a Belief in God, the Volume of Sacred Law as an indispensable part of the Furniture of the Lodge, and the prohibition of the discussion of politics and religion.

Every single Grand Lodge we've investigated is consistent with #1, #2, and the entirety of #3.
Every single Grand Lodge says they require a belief in God (well over a dozen so far we've looked through) but only 1 Grand Lodge we've found so far explicitly states their jurisdiction requires monotheism.

You could quote me 100 references about what happens AFTER you gain membership into Freemasonry... it's irrelevant when we are trying to prove what is required to gain membership into Freemasonry.

Give me references that prove CURRENTLY the standard of recognition or membership for 'regular' lodges, in no uncertain terms, is monotheism and not theism in general.
References from 50, 70, 100 years ago are completely irrelevant IF you fail to prove they are still standing to this day. (we are not trying to prove monotheism was a requirement at a point in history, we are trying to prove monotheism is a requirement NOW)

What is unreasonable about this burden of proof I have laid out for you? Any questions, confusion, disagreements?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Do you see a distinction between TEACHING and REQUIREMENTS FOR MEMBERSHIP?

I do not see a distinction in regards membership.

You are still dancing around the question, why did you answer with such broken English? Why won't you give a straight up answer for a straight up question?

You can and do convert people of already established faiths into believing in the Grand Architect of the Universe as the one true God.
Some lodges require a belief in GAOTU, a vast majority do not.

That is damning proof the Masonic teachings are not inherently synonymous with the requirements for membership.

Originally posted by Erbal
[
Some lodges require a belief in GAOTU, a vast majority do not.

That is damning proof the Masonic teachings are not inherently synonymous with the requirements for membership.

Regular Freemasonry requires a belief in a Supreme Being. If you insist that is not so and you know better, good luck. I could insist the sun is green...what would you think? You wouldnt care. But that does leave me to wonder why people are trying to convince you of something that is pretty apparent to the sane. They must be doing it for entertainment or something.

Originally posted by Erbal
You are still dancing around the question, why did you answer with such broken English?

Huh? I said, 'I do not', which to a person who understands English, means 'no'. I do not see a distinction due to the critical reason I explained.

You can and do convert people of already established faiths into believing in the Grand Architect of the Universe as the one true God.
Some lodges require a belief in GAOTU, a vast majority do not.

The phrase Great Architect of the Universe is a synonym for God and ALL lodges require belief in God.

That is damning proof the Masonic teachings are not inherently synonymous with the requirements for membership.

This just further proves that you have a rather limited knowledge and mircoscopic view of Masonry. Your continued blundering is becoming unseemly.

reply to post by Skyfloating


For the standard and generally accepted use of the English language: Supreme Being is NOT synonymous with MONOTHEISM. We've been over this ad nasuem.

It's always pleasant to see a forum mod stop by for an ad hominem attack on the guy who won't buy Masonic BS.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

I asked if you see a distinction between teaching and requirements for membership.

You answered with: I do not see a distinction in regards membership.

You do not see a distinction between what and what? Use your words, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Originally posted by Erbal
You do not see a distinction between what and what? Use your words, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Either. teaching monotheism means we admit only montheists.

Originally posted by Erbal

For the standard and generally accepted use of the English language: Supreme Being is NOT synonymous with MONOTHEISM. We've been over this ad nasuem.

Thats ONE Supreme Being, not several, which makes it monotheistic.

Nonetheless I wouldnt describe Freemasonry as monotheistic because that would imply that Freemasonry worships that Being.. No being is worshipped in Freemasonry because Freemasonry is not a religion or a faith. Its an ancient character-building/self-improvement system.

It's always pleasant to see a forum mod stop by for an ad hominem attack on the guy who won't buy Masonic BS.

Has inconvenience been caused to you?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
You do not see a distinction between what and what? Use your words, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Either. teaching monotheism means we admit only montheists.

Obviously you are not willing to give a straight answer to a straight question. Augustus, are you saying: "I do not see a distinction between the teachings of Freemasonry and the requirements to become a member of Freemasonry?"

How does regular Freemasonry teach monotheism in such a way that the teachings can be considered reasonable proof that regular Freemasonry only admits monotheists? (or is it a secret?)

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Erbal

For the standard and generally accepted use of the English language: Supreme Being is NOT synonymous with MONOTHEISM. We've been over this ad nasuem.

Thats ONE Supreme Being, not several, which makes it monotheistic.

Nonetheless I wouldnt describe Freemasonry as monotheistic because that would imply that Freemasonry worships that Being.. No being is worshipped in Freemasonry because Freemasonry is not a religion or a faith. Its an ancient character-building/self-improvement system.

It's always pleasant to see a forum mod stop by for an ad hominem attack on the guy who won't buy Masonic BS.

Has inconvenience been caused to you?

Monotheism does not inherently involve worship of any kind.
Monotheism is simply the belief in the existence of only one deity.
Theism is simply the belief in the existence of at least one deity.
Polytheism is simply the belief in the existence of more than one deity.
Atheism is simply the lack of belief in the existence of any deities.

Saying you require a belief in a Supreme Being does not exclude any belief in more than 1 deity.
Saying you require monotheism does exclude any belief in more then 1 deity.

If the words we both use in our conversation do not share the same meaning, we are not talking about the same thing. If you want to secretly use nonstandard definitions of words when you know I am using the standard definitions of words, you are being intentionally misleading and deceptive.

reply to post by Erbal

Here is from the Idaho Code & Digest:

Section 3301. Belief in God. A belief in the one ever living and true God, the immortality of the soul, and the Volume of the Sacred Law as the rule and guide of our faith and practice, is the groundwork of Masonry.

SOURCE

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Erbal

 

Here is from the Idaho Code & Digest:

Section 3301. Belief in God. A belief in the one ever living and true God, the immortality of the soul, and the Volume of the Sacred Law as the rule and guide of our faith and practice, is the groundwork of Masonry.

SOURCE

Let's look at what the Idaho Code & Digest says about recognition:

Section 107. Standards for Recognition. Fraternal
recognition may be extended to a Grand Lodge when it
appears wise to this Grand Lodge, a Committee having
first considered and reported thereon:

6. That it requires conformity to the following, which
the Grand Lodge of Idaho regards as necessary in a
Masonic Body:
a. Acknowledgement of a belief in a Supreme
Being;

Monotheism is not a requirement for, or essential to, RECOGNITION.

Here is from the Idaho Grand Lodge website on who are Freemasons:
www.idahoaf.am...

Freemasonry is not a religion. Sometimes outsiders claim that the Craft is a religion. Most Freemasons do belong to an established Church. Freemasons do not go to the Lodge to worship God, each Freemason goes to his own church. It is religious, in that one cannot become a Freemason unless he believes in God; but there is no religious test applied to the prospective member, nor is he required or asked to subscribe to any religious tenet or dogma. It is forbidden to discuss religion or politics in the Lodge.

It also says:

Criteria for Membership

The essential qualification for membership is a belief in a Supreme Being. Membership is open to men of any race or religion who can fulfill this essential qualification and are of good repute.

Freemasonry and Religion

Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own. All religious polemic and speculation was - and is - forbidden within the Lodge. Sectarian division has thus been avoided and the Craft is open to all men of good repute, regardless of their personal religious beliefs.

That reads pretty clear to me, to be recognized as a regular lodge, it is essential you require at least theism in general. From there, each jurisdiction has the freedom to keep this default requirement or to have a more strict and defined religious requirement... but they will no longer be recognized if they go below the default standard of theism in general.

reply to post by Erbal

Section 3301 defines what a 'belief in a supreme being' constitutes.

Originally posted by Erbal
Augustus, are you saying: "I do not see a distinction between the teachings of Freemasonry and the requirements to become a member of Freemasonry?"

Yes.

We teach, among other things, the requirements are just not to get in, but to remain in.

How does regular Freemasonry teach monotheism in such a way that the teachings can be considered reasonable proof that regular Freemasonry only admits monotheists?

The teachings revolve around belief in one God.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Augustus, are you saying: "I do not see a distinction between the teachings of Freemasonry and the requirements to become a member of Freemasonry?"

Yes.

We teach, among other things, the requirements are just not to get in, but to remain in.

How does regular Freemasonry teach monotheism in such a way that the teachings can be considered reasonable proof that regular Freemasonry only admits monotheists?

The teachings revolve around belief in one God.

So no specific examples to a specific question, just vague answers? Is it a secret?

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Erbal

 

Section 3301 defines what a 'belief in a supreme being' constitutes.

False.
'Supreme Being' is only mentioned exactly 1 time in that entire Code and Digest... it's listed under the standards of recognition.

6. That it requires conformity to the following, which the Grand Lodge of Idaho regards as necessary in a Masonic Body:
a. Acknowledgement of a belief in a Supreme Being;

Section 3301, under the Misc. provisions:

Section 3301. Belief in God. [1]A belief in the one ever living and true God, [2] the immortality of the soul, [3]and the Volume of the Sacred Law as the rule and guide of our faith and practice, is the groundwork of Masonry.

That does not define what a "belief in a supreme being" constitutes, how can it when it doesn't even mention supreme being?
It lists 3 separate things it feels constitutes the groundwork of Masonry.

reply to post by Erbal


Perhaps I should try this another way,

If I were to ask you for a number between 1 and 50, and that number corresponded to the amount of Grand lodges that would post specific enough verbiage for you to agree that masonry requires a belief in ONE God, or as you like to say, monotheism, what might that number be?

I would ask that the moderators be kind and not impose a penalty on your answer should it be only 1 line. If a penalty must be applied, please do so to my account.
(as it should only be a number)

Than you so much for your understanding.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Erbal

 

Perhaps I should try this another way,

If I were to ask you for a number between 1 and 50, and that number corresponded to the amount of Grand lodges that would post specific enough verbiage for you to agree that masonry requires a belief in ONE God, or as you like to say, monotheism, what might that number be?

I would ask that the moderators be kind and not impose a penalty on your answer should it be only 1 line. If a penalty must be applied, please do so to my account.
(as it should only be a number)

Than you so much for your understanding.

How many times have I stated that Monotheism is a belief that ONLY one God exists? So why are you making the choice to remove the word ONLY like it's not a quintessential aspect of monotheism?

I have made it crystal clear what I want to see proof of.

I want to see proof that the standards of recognition for grand lodges, in the US, currently demands all jurisdictions to require every member of Masonry believes in the existence of ONLY one deity. (monotheism with everything not monotheistic being excluded)

So far I have seen conclusive proof that the standards of recognition for grand lodges, in the US, currently demands all jurisdictions to require that member of Masonry believes in the existence of at least one deity. (theism with atheism being excluded)

Either every Grand Lodge, and thus all lodges under their rule, MUST be monotheistic OR every Grand Lodge must be theistic and they each have the OPTION to restrict membership to just monotheists. If it's the latter, I suppose you could show me every Grand Lodge that has chosen to go above the standard of theism and only accept monotheists, and so far you guys have only shown 1 Grand Lodge who made that choice but many who have no made that choice.

reply to post by Erbal

You're right, you know more than me about the Code & Digest...