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Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

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posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
The above poster outlined what hell in a general sense means, separation from God. You were intimating 'hell' as being the same as the 'lake of fire' which it is not. Nowhere in there does the harrowing of 'hell' state that the 'devil' rules hell.


The quote I submitted contradicts your earlier claim that Satan was not even in Hell as Hell was a physical seperation from God.


You must be having a very hard time finding official pronouncements to support your theory of a 'devil' ruling over 'hell' if you are resorting to quoting from what you termed as 'offshoot cults' in the protestants. You already discounted the other denominations of Christianity so it does not reflect kindly on your arguments now to use them to support your opinion.


The quote still proves my point. Argue the merits of it, not me.




posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Wow. I'm asking you to prove monotheism is a real and enforced requirement/rule/landmark... and you link a few quotes saying Freemasonry teaches monotheism?

I have yet to see a single Grand Lodge state it requires monotheism.
Every single Grand Lodge website says it requires THEISM and there is no words that state or imply they exclude any specific form of theism.

And if that wasn't clear enough, all of these websites contain wording that talks about religious freedom within Freemasonry and no words state or imply any form of theism is excluded... but they do make it crystal clear atheism is excluded.

I think you are either blatantly lying or you are so biased and delusional that you can't see straight. I can't think of another explanation for how you can believe your ultra flimsy evidence is even close to being conclusive proof that specifically monotheism, and not theism in general, is the real requirement.
edit on 4-11-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-11-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Wow. I'm asking you to prove monotheism is a real and enforced requirement/rule/landmark... and you link a few quotes saying Freemasonry teaches monotheism?


That has got to be the most pathetically lame cop out response I have seen in this thread so far.

You wanted links, you got them.

Now, after numerous Grand Lodges clearly make use of the word 'Monotheism' on their sites and literature it is somehow not good enough for you to grasp that Masonry requires a belief in ONE GOD.

Do you want me to start linking Grand Lodge Constitutions as well that show the same wording?


... but they do make it crystal clear atheism is excluded.


...and that Monotheism is the basis of Masonry. Link after link. Quote after quote. You keep ignoring those.


I think you are either blatantly lying or you are so biased and delusional that you can't see straight. I can't think of another explanation for how you can believe your ultra flimsy evidence is even close to being conclusive proof that specifically monotheism, and not theism in general, is the real requirement.


'Ultra-flimsy'? Hah, you are as funny as the 1/2 mile gas lines we have here.

You keep being funny and forget that you missed this quote on the Grand Lodge of Louisiana's home page:


Instead, it is a friend of all religions which are based on the belief in one God.


There is only one way to interpet that:

'One God' = m-o-n-o-t-h-e-i-s-m.

One God. Not a couple of gods. Not a bunch of them. One God. Real clear...to those that are not being intellectually disengenious anyway.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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If freemasons worshipped Satan they'd also have to be real cowards considering no mason ever comes out and admits "oh yes, yes, I do worship Satan".

This much is true: None of us knowingly and deliberately worship satan.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 03:41 PM
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Just to drive the point home a bit further:


Am I Qualified to Become a Mason?
Freemasonry accepts applications from men who are of good character, recommended by those within the fraternity, and who believe in one God. With the exception that one must be monotheistic, Freemasonry makes no distinction among the various religions when considering a man for membership, nor does it care about his political beliefs, wealth, or station in life. Religion and politics are never discussed in Lodge, and to violate this ancient custom would mean expulsion from the Lodge. In all things, it is the interior character of the man and not the external trappings and wealth which would recommend him to become a Mason.


Wait. Did the Grand Lodge of New Hampshire just say you have to be monotheistic? Hmmm. You keep crying 'delusional' and 'b.s.' when you obviously have zero grasp on the requirements of joining Masonry.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
And the three main Landmarks have not been altered since 1956.
PROVE IT.


Now that I have some time I can make this as easy for you to understand as possible.

We talked about mutual amity and recognition. The Grand Lodge of Massachusetts currently recognizes ALL of the other Grand Lodges in the United States (in addition to others around the world). The Grand Lodge of Massachusetts also has a rather tight list of requirements for said recognition:


“Fraternal recognition may be extended to a foreign Grand Lodge when
(a committee having first considered and reported thereon), it
appears to the satisfaction of this Grand Lodge:

...

4. That its ritual is fundamentally in accord with the Ancient
Landmarks, customs and usages of the Craft. This involves:

A. Monotheism


Notice that part about the Landmarks and monotheism?

So answer me this; if the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts requires all Grand Lodges it recognizes to adhere to monotheism and they recognize all United States Grand Lodges what does that tell you about the other Grand Lodge's implementation of this Landmark?

Are they all lying to the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts? Is the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts stupid? Or is this Landmark actually in place for ALL Grand Lodges as I said earlier?







edit on 4-11-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude montheistically believes in tea



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


I hope your doing ok i live on the east coast also Delaware to be exact and we got hit by Sandy also, we lost power for eight hours 2:15am to 10am the next day but no basement flooding or anything like that.


As far as symbols being arbitrary in nature i'd say it's up for conjecture i mean the simple answer is yes symbols are just there with no predisposed meaning what so ever however certin groups attach meaning to them and expect in some cases for there followers to read the same thing into the symbol as the group which means that they do in that case have predisposed meaning to them, i would say simply it's a case by case bases.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by King Seesar
I hope your doing ok i live on the east coast also Delaware to be exact and we got hit by Sandy also, we lost power for eight hours 2:15am to 10am the next day but no basement flooding or anything like that.


I am good, thank you for asking. We lost power for 4 days but I have a generator and was able to keep the fridge and sump pump working as well as wire in the circulator pump for the baseboard heat. I had my neighbors and their two children staying with me until this morning as they had no electricty or heat and I have enough room and food (and booze) to keep everyone content.

The gas situation is the biggest problem but hopefully it clears up by the end of the week.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus


I am good, thank you for asking. We lost power for 4 days but I have a generator and was able to keep the fridge and sump pump working as well as wire in the circulator pump for the baseboard heat.


If you worshipped Satan you would never lose power while on earth and would always have hellfire to generate energy for you.

Its good to hear you came out of the storm OK.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
And the three main Landmarks have not been altered since 1956.
PROVE IT.


Now that I have some time I can make this as easy for you to understand as possible.

We talked about mutual amity and recognition. The Grand Lodge of Massachusetts currently recognizes ALL of the other Grand Lodges in the United States (in addition to others around the world). The Grand Lodge of Massachusetts also has a rather tight list of requirements for said recognition:


“Fraternal recognition may be extended to a foreign Grand Lodge when
(a committee having first considered and reported thereon), it
appears to the satisfaction of this Grand Lodge:

...

4. That its ritual is fundamentally in accord with the Ancient
Landmarks, customs and usages of the Craft. This involves:

A. Monotheism


Notice that part about the Landmarks and monotheism?

So answer me this; if the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts requires all Grand Lodges it recognizes to adhere to monotheism and they recognize all United States Grand Lodges what does that tell you about the other Grand Lodge's implementation of this Landmark?

Are they all lying to the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts? Is the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts stupid? Or is this Landmark actually in place for ALL Grand Lodges as I said earlier?


You linked the current 2012 website of the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, specifically the list of grand lodges they currently recognize. www.massfreemasonry.org... This Mass. Grand Lodge link you provided gives no specific details regarding their requirements for recognition.

The Grand Lodge of Massachusetts maintains fraternal relations with those Grand Lodges that have requested recognition. All requests are referred to the Grand Lodge Committee on Foreign Relations. Final determination is granted by vote in the Grand Lodge.

There are several ways for a Massachusetts Freemason to determine whether or not a particular Lodge or Grand Lodge is officially recognized. Each Lodge Secretary has a copy of the List of Lodges - Masonic published annually to identify those Lodges generally recognized by a majority of the regular Grand Lodges.


Then you linked some obscure text file from www.textfiles.com...
The opening words read as following:

SHORT TALK BULLETIN - Vol.XIII November, 1935 No.11

UNIVERSALITY

by; Unknown

You presented this link as the current standard for recognition. Those words were allegedly written in 1935 and we are talking about the current state of things in 2012... if you can prove monotheism is CURRENTLY a requirement, I will consider your claims about monotheism to be true and valid.

I can't even find the word monotheism anywhere on the website for the Mass. Grand Lodge.
And what the grand lodge DOES say is hard to ignore, especially for the section on how to become a member:

Men age 18 and older who believe in a Supreme Being and meet the qualifications and standards for membership are eligible to petition a Lodge. We welcome men of every country, religion, race, age, income, education, and opinion.

www.massfreemasonry.org...

That's too big of a difference in specific wording from the past to the present to reasonably consider them as saying the same thing. If all your evidence is from specific wording in 1935 and 1953, and all the websites/information from 2012 are totally different and makes no specific mention of requiring monotheism, that's a strawman argument and it looks really bad on you.
edit on 4-11-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
... if you can prove monotheism is CURRENTLY a requirement, I will consider your claims about monotheism to be true and valid.


Good, get ready to do so.


I can't even find the word monotheism anywhere on the website for the Mass. Grand Lodge.


Then you really did not look too hard again:


Masonry is not a religion. But it is one of the few platforms where men of all monotheistic faiths - Christians (including Catholics), Jews, and Muslims - can come together because it is open to all men who believe in a Supreme Being... Grand Lodge of Massachusetts Top 10 Questions



That's too big of a difference in specific wording from the past to the present to reasonably consider them as saying the same thing. If all your evidence is from specific wording in 1935 and 1953, and all the websites/information from 2012 are totally different and makes no specific mention of requiring monotheism, that's a strawman argument and it looks really bad on you.


Masonry has not changed, the requirements are the same as they have always been. Is this clear now?




edit on 4-11-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: Piss on you Sandy



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
The above poster outlined what hell in a general sense means, separation from God. You were intimating 'hell' as being the same as the 'lake of fire' which it is not. Nowhere in there does the harrowing of 'hell' state that the 'devil' rules hell.


The quote I submitted contradicts your earlier claim that Satan was not even in Hell as Hell was a physical seperation from God.


You must be having a very hard time finding official pronouncements to support your theory of a 'devil' ruling over 'hell' if you are resorting to quoting from what you termed as 'offshoot cults' in the protestants. You already discounted the other denominations of Christianity so it does not reflect kindly on your arguments now to use them to support your opinion.


The quote still proves my point. Argue the merits of it, not me.


1. Hell is a spiritual separation from God not a physical one, yet.

2. The quote does not prove anything as you already discounted it from the discussion.

Protestants and Hell:
en.wikipedia.org...


The varying Protestant views of "hell", both in relation to Hades (i.e., the abode of the dead) and Gehenna (i.e., the destination of the wicked), are largely a function of the varying Protestant views on the intermediate state between death and resurrection; and different views on the immortality of the soul or the alternative, the mortality of the soul. For example John Calvin, who believed in conscious existence after death,[86] had a very different concept of hell (Hades and Gehenna) to Martin Luther who held that death was sleep.[87]

In most Protestant traditions, Hell is the place created by God for the punishment of the devil and fallen angels (cf. Matthew 25:41), and those whose names are not written in the book of life (cf. Revelation 20:15). It is the final destiny of every person who does not receive salvation, where they will be punished for their sins. People will be consigned to Hell after the last judgment.[88]


Protestantism
www.patheos.com...


Because purgatory is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, nearly all Protestants reject the Roman Catholic teaching that there is also a transitional place or process of purification of the soul after death. That said, there is some diversity of thought about what happens immediately after death. While nearly all Protestants believe that the individual retains its unique identity after death (unlike Eastern religions), some believe that the soul goes immediately to be with Christ in heaven, awaiting the Day of Judgment and a resurrected body. Others suggest that there is an intermediate time of "soul sleep," an unconscious waiting for the resurrection. Some believe that the souls of the dead proceed immediately on death either to heaven or hell. Still others argue that the temporality of this life versus the eternality of the life to come makes intermediate periods of time meaningless altogether.

Traditionally Protestants believe in a judgment day at the end of history. On this day all the dead from throughout human history will be resurrected, and will possess some sort of physical body that will resemble but yet be different from the body possessed during their earthly existence. Jesus' resurrection, described in all four Gospels, is the basis for this belief, and the apostle Paul emphasizes the resurrection, linking Christ's resurrection to the experience believers will have at the end of time. Paul insists that without the resurrection, Christian faith is meaningless (1 Cor. 15:12-19).

At the final resurrection of the dead, the saints (or, the elect) enter heaven, while the damned are sent to hell.

Heaven is a state of blessedness in the presence of God, something humans have not been able to experience since the fall in the Garden of Eden.

Hell is a place of torment, as just punishment for sin.


Your quote does not stand up to the times. If the masses ever believed in your obscure quote of Martin Luther it is not accepted as anything even approaching official doctrine. I do give you credit for managing to find anything similar to your claims. Of course if you are now accepting quotes as doctrine we can certainly find quotes of freemasons worshiping lucifer.


At this point you are merely preaching dis information about religions and their doctrine. Seeing as you do not like what you perceive as 'dis-info' spread about your 'beliefs' it is unbecoming of you to continue any further. You have made it quite clear you have a very minute understanding of the doctrines or concepts involved, please stop embarrassing yourself.
edit on 4-11-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
If you worshipped Satan you would never lose power while on earth and would always have hellfire to generate energy for you.


Of course, then I could use 'the seething energies of Lucifer' to power the rest of the New Jersey residents who still have no electricity.


Its good to hear you came out of the storm OK.


Thank you, Brother. I was fairly fortunate but some of my friends and neighbors were not so blessed. They are still unable to get their lives back in order and may have weeks or months before they can and this is not even possible for the ones I know who lived down the shore and lost their homes completely.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
The quote does not prove anything as you already discounted it from the discussion.


I personally discount pretty much everything any organized relgion has to say about anything. This however does not preclude me from using said quote to prove a point about said religion. They are not mutually exclusive.

Jesus went to Hell. He conquered Satan whilst in Hell. If Hell was strictly a seperation from God how did the J-man get there and what was Old Scratch doing there prior to being conquered?



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by Erbal
 


Supreme being does NOT mean monotheism.

The Hindu (a.k.a. Pagan) religion refers to Shiva as the 'Supreme Being', oh and also Vishnu is the 'Supreme Being'.

We have already established that worship merely means reverence and/or respect towards, which Augustus has already provided a link to the masonic reverence and respect to lucifer, also the masons have worshipful masters presiding over their 'gatherings' which is a clear indication that 'worship' can be attributed to something other than a 'Supreme Being'.

Supreme
oxforddictionaries.com...


efinition of supreme
adjective

1highest in rank or authority: a unified force with a supreme commander
most important or powerful: on the race track he reigned supreme

2very great or the greatest: he was nerving himself for a supreme effort
[postpositive] very good at or well known for a specified activity: people expected the marathon runner supreme to win
(of a penalty or sacrifice) involving death: our comrades who made the supreme sacrifice


Nowhere does the definition indicate the nature of the adjective as having no others beneath them. Jupiter was the 'Supreme Being' of the Roman pantheon as he was its highest in rank and authority.

Interestingly it was freemasons who placed a common prayer to Jupiter on the American seal.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
... if you can prove monotheism is CURRENTLY a requirement, I will consider your claims about monotheism to be true and valid.


Not to mention you completely ignored what the Grand Lodge of New Hampshire said:


Freemasonry accepts applications from men who are of good character, recommended by those within the fraternity, and who believe in one God. With the exception that one must be monotheistic...


Are you trying to tell me that the above is not a requirement?



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
The quote does not prove anything as you already discounted it from the discussion.


I personally discount pretty much everything any organized relgion has to say about anything. This however does not preclude me from using said quote to prove a point about said religion. They are not mutually exclusive.

Jesus went to Hell. He conquered Satan whilst in Hell. If Hell was strictly a seperation from God how did the J-man get there and what was Old Scratch doing there prior to being conquered?


Conquered in hell merely describes the location it does indicate rulership . . . . How do you not get this? You are using the common modern english interpretation of the terms when the original Greek and Latin used different words for the hells.

Oh and it states that Jesus conquered Death in hell and the conquered the devil on the cross, not exactly what you have presented now is it?
edit on 4-11-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Supreme being does NOT mean monotheism.


When it has the word 'a' in front of it it sure does.

Maybe you need to re-read what I just posted from the Grand Lodge of New Hampshire:


Freemasonry accepts applications from men who are of good character, recommended by those within the fraternity, and who believe in one God. With the exception that one must be monotheistic


Ooops. Broccoli wrong, Grand Lodge right.


...also the masons have worshipful masters presiding over their 'gatherings' which is a clear indication that 'worship' can be attributed to something other than a 'Supreme Being'.


Are you really going to go down that dopey road?



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Conquered in hell merely describes the location it does indicate rulership . . . . How do you not get this? You are using the common modern english interpretation of the terms when the original Greek and Latin used different words for the hells.


Precisely my point as I have indicated for over 700 posts that Hell and Satan are a 'modern' Christian concept that did not exist prior to Christianity creating this mythos regarding both and has been in flux since.



posted on Nov, 4 2012 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Not your point at all, you have been arguing over and over that they believe the devil rules in hell, which has been proven thoroughly false and unsupported.

The concept of hell is not strictly Christian as I stated earlier there are different words for the different 'after-life' experiences of which Hades was one and another was Gehenna.

Hades is in reference to where the limbo existence of the Greek pantheon. Gehenna comes from the Judaic faiths which predate Christianity.

Soooo no.

You love to insult people calling them dopey, idiotic, retarded and so on. Lol you come across like a school yard bully who isn't having their way.


And to your Grand Lodge quote. Finally you managed to find a single lodge which required monotheism. Erbal has gone through hell and high water for you to produce one measly scrap of evidence that does not speak for any lodge other than the New Hampshire.

It does not disprove the fact that monotheism holds no singular ownership of the term 'Supreme Being' as pagans have used it quite frequently. Oh and founding masons of this country blatantly used pagan prayers on the American seal. I suggest you go back a few pages and review the connection between the mystery school practices of building temples and that of the modern masons who built Washington. Or the masons involved in Luxor, errr the Louvre.
edit on 4-11-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101




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