I think it's time for Religion to die.

Starting from the ground up is a nice notion, but honestly I find it eye opening to read other's arguments even if I disagree deeply with them. It also saves you having life changing insights only to realise a short while later that what took you six months to think about has been around (and sometimes discredited) since the 80s.

I used to have a similar view point but I discarded it over the years since I find other's view points more enthralling. Think about reading said books like reading someone's opinion from ATS, it's no different except most books are better edited and type set with more references.

Originally posted by Kastogere
reply to post by Ilyich

 

NO, not very religious...and my family growing up was quite dysfunctional..hence no time for religion.

My view is under a simple premise..there are things in this world that we cannot grasp as a concept nor as a perceived truth bound to reality. Our minds simply are not capable of that....yet.

And what ever the psychology behind your assertion is, the physical boundaries simply do not allow us to understand anything further than our emotional programming. Once you break that we can make headway and answer some really old questions about what is, and what isnt.

Until that happens.....your idea while nice to humor and speculate...does not certainly bind any one individual other than yourself to that justification you propose, nor explain anothers motivation for clinging to religion.

Again, as I apologized in my first reply, sorry for making the assumption. I've had a bit of a tough ride myself, some of which I've spilled on a number of occasions in various threads through out ATS, if you're really curious to know more I will gladly inform you in a U2U or you can look through my posts and find them. There a few threads I've visited that go in to intimate details of these things. For myself it's many of these experiences that leads me to ask some of the gut slashing questions I do.

I as well, believe full heartedly there are things we simply may never understand for instance if a physicist sat down with you and wrote out the equations for the speculative Alcubierre drive would you understand any of it or be able to prove one way or another it could or could not happen? The math says so. No, you'd probably respond the same as a cat in that situation. Unless of course you have the prior knowledge to understand these things. I can accept I know absolutely nothing when it comes to the universe. How ever, I can not blindly accept anyone who says so, because they say so. I seek to ask the questions and find the answers to expand my knowledge and the greater understanding of all things, I can and can not see in the world I have been presented.

I simply do not, and can not find a reason to understand the " Faith " and obedience behind organized religion, other than fear of something terrible happening to them after this life. I would think the fear of something terrible happening to oneself and those around them would be enough to bring people together for the better. I mean for instance, look at the incidence of 911. Something horrific happened and everyone reacted to it. World wide people felt for the victims. Why, because it's a natural human response. Religion on the other hand, drives all sorts of incident like this world wide every day. " Terrorist " attacks, and I say this lightly as I'm not convinced myself. The holocaust, genocide, crusades. These things have all happened based on the programmed ideal that one individual is superior to another. Religion, is an old world barrier, war creating, superiority machine that drives a wedge between men, as man. We are all the same, what does it matter, and religion can not accept each other yet it's the only thing standing between the unity of us all!

It shouldn't matter what anyone believes, but when it comes to religion it most certainly does. The whole of the United States has been on an Anti-muslim rant since 911. The church has been on an anti-gay crusade for generations! Do you not see the flaws with in their very teachings? It drives me crazy, and I don't understand it. How can you preach good will towards man, love care and support but exempt certain groups, ethnicity, sexualities or faiths? Religion is a self perpetuating oxymoron. I just don't get it, and I want it explained.

Originally posted by Pinke
Starting from the ground up is a nice notion, but honestly I find it eye opening to read other's arguments even if I disagree deeply with them. It also saves you having life changing insights only to realise a short while later that what took you six months to think about has been around (and sometimes discredited) since the 80s.

I used to have a similar view point but I discarded it over the years since I find other's view points more enthralling. Think about reading said books like reading someone's opinion from ATS, it's no different except most books are better edited and type set with more references.

I intend to stick with it, and unfortunately It's a really slow go. I am aware, others have thought and felt what I feel, and in no way claim to be blazing a new trail however I intend to take it the full distance. Where it's going to take me I have no idea, but I can't help but feel compelled to go there. I've had many revelations over the years, and I guess I've been at this a while. It's left me with some heart wrenching obstacles, deep swings of depression and anxiety, both amazing and dangerous experiences. As it sits right now, I have very few people in my life, and even less I like ha ha. How ever I've accepted this as part of my journey, I'm following my heart, and I suppose you could say soul(unconscious) I have no reason to object to where I'm headed but it comes with it's benefits and sacrifices. I have jokingly, said I wish I could take off into the woods for years to learn a greater understanding of myself and the world around me. I have also had others around me jokingly call me a witchdoctor, or counselor. Yet I do not claim these things about myself, nor do I expect anyone to take anything I say more than something to think about.

I will investigate the material you suggested further, and perhaps I will U2U for some more reading material, but it's difficult when I feel I have to try to cram everything from the chemistry and biological make up, as well as behavior of cells to the position, movements and frequencies of the cosmos. I feel I am here to learn, and I am going to do it. I enjoy reading, investigating and researching more than anything else. It's an obsession, and at times I need to remind myself to take a break, which is why I've kept the few I do have in my life. My journals are packed with writing, drawings, rantings, and self revelations I would love to publish when I get older. " Into the Abyss; a lifetime on Earth. " How ever, I feel most likely it will be taken at what it is, the journal of a man who got caught up in his quest for knowledge and went insane. ha ha.

reply to post by Ilyich


Maybe the problem is that other peoples ideas are driving you crazy. You would be extremely surprised to really start to know exactly what evil is, what is the works of the devil. You need to understand what sin is, the forbidden fruit was the tree of knowledge of what?

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The pure fact that your driving yourself crazy, and some of things that you've said just proves it even more the battle that's transpiring before your very eyes, from the past to the present and into the future.

Trust me your mind will be tested to its uttermost limits if you really seek to know the truth.

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

reply to post by EnigmaticDill


Please don't start, you're perpetuating the very thing I started this thread for. Enough, about myself here before this thread loses it's direction. I'm not crazy, I've seen psychiatrists, counselors, been on anxiety meds, worked my way off them. I'm 100% sane, I'm 100% real, and no scripture is going to change my thoughts feelings or beliefs.

Your bible is tainted, whether you want to believe by men looking to control others or satan himself.

reply to post by Ilyich


What makes you think that your sane or more real than anyone else, because the world puts those ideas in your mind.

So now your taking the focus off yourself the one who created it. Start with what because im quoting scripture, just because that doesn't fit in with the ideas of those you follow from others. I thought you were here to seek knowledge or understanding. Could it be that you have a motive. (Theres something there in that)

Where does that put the people that aren't religious in your frame of perspective.

Knowledge puffeth's up but charity edifies.

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.

-C. S. Lewis

I think the main point here is that man is flawed in many ways and no 2 are alike.

faith doesnt always have to be with religion, nor does it have to be confined to a narrow view of ones moral turpitude. The very fact that mans laws are a reflection of religious doctorines do have relevance in what the OP is attempting to convey.

I understand his gripe as to put it plainly. The psychology of humanity like everything else is outdated and broken with religious undertones thourghout being used as a premise to tell those who would follow blindly how to live, what to believe, how to act.....etc etc.

What is religion? The very definition of such is a repetition of action....not necessarily having to do with god. yet it is a term used to define ones belief in such. Thus narrowing ones views on reality as a whole. This can be seen throughout the US with many people left to their own concerns at the same time willing to hand over all control of their lives to a belief without question.

So to those who would not understand the underlying message i have 2 questions...

What is normal in the physical human sense?

Can you define right and wrong as it pertains to the raw nature of mans orginal design without the bias of soceity or mans written laws of such?


Question everything, and settle for nothing.

reply to post by Ilyich


Wow you just know it all and have it all figured out there don't you? There's a blue fin tuna swimming right now at 1:25am off the coast of the Pacific. It's slightly hungry but it's feeding on small fish and plankton. It's takes a wrong turn, now it's in a traulers net. Do you understand now? YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW, HELLO??? lol

There's no escaping religion.It has enormous societal, cultural, political and historical implications.It's been blamed for wars and praised for bringing people together.But it is practised in some form across the world by billions of people everyday. So what are the world's major believing and non-believing constituencies?

Below are the estimate of the world religions based on the best data avaliable.



A demographic breakdown of the world of religion

I think it's time for Religion to die ?

Are you having a laugh?

Originally posted by EnigmaticDill
reply to post by Ilyich

 

What makes you think that your sane or more real than anyone else, because the world puts those ideas in your mind.

So now your taking the focus off yourself the one who created it. Start with what because im quoting scripture, just because that doesn't fit in with the ideas of those you follow from others. I thought you were here to seek knowledge or understanding. Could it be that you have a motive. (Theres something there in that)

Where does that put the people that aren't religious in your frame of perspective.

Knowledge puffeth's up but charity edifies.

No, I said I would not entertain anyone quoting scripture and I broke that rule already. Good day, and good luck to you.

Originally posted by r2d246
reply to post by Ilyich

 

Wow you just know it all and have it all figured out there don't you? There's a blue fin tuna swimming right now at 1:25am off the coast of the Pacific. It's slightly hungry but it's feeding on small fish and plankton. It's takes a wrong turn, now it's in a traulers net. Do you understand now? YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW, HELLO??? lol

I appreciate the humor, how ever I can not appreciate those who don't read the whole thread. I never claimed I know anything at all. In fact as this thread loses it direction and turns into chaos, I know even less.

reply to post by iIuminaIi


Yes, at you. You've missed what so many others have managed to see, but that is alright. I'm aware people will believe in religion, I also aware of what my threads title states, but so many have failed to read the last blip of the OP. I can't help myself but address, everyone and unfortunately this is leading me to be trolled. I am not trying to change your beliefs, or disrespect them. I've been saying this through out the thread, how ever I can not continue amusing those looking to play games.

I am well aware how many people around the world believe in religion, but equally impressive are the growing number of those who don't follow any religious group. from wiki, 14.7% of the world's population are non religious, and atheists around 3.8%. That's a pretty good chunk not following any religion, not to mention the religions with out god. Just saying.

While i used to agree there (and to a certain extent still do) - so do i not believe that the death of religion will ultimately lead to peace and happiness on the planet. I AM AFRAID IT WONT.

Religion, while cause and reason for many, many bad things on this planet, is just only ONE form of far deeper rooted, human "problems", such as greed, being power hungry, the need to control others etc..etc.

(Remark: Greed in a sense since religion, at some point, will always provide a benefit such as live after dead etc...respective gives a hope that there is more to it than the hardships of our life etc...so yes, there is an element of egotism and "benefit" in religion since it will "reward" the one who lives accordingly)

BUT ASIDE FROM THAT....you can take religion away as has been done quite a lot in the past already, for example in Communism etc. and it will NOT solve problems in the slightest. The belief and religion is taken away, but the focus just shifts from religion to, say, political power structures. What did the fact result in that, eg. in the former eastern, communist countries atheism prevailed? NOTHING!

It can be freely interchanged, people still can be controlled, exploited, lied to, killed, wars be fought...regardless of whether WITH religion or without it.

Take their religion, people will surely find other ideologies they will join and will continue to behave in the same, irrational ways.

The problem is NOT so much religion, but really humans themselves.

I must disagree, even if partially.
Religion comes from two essential human traits: the aspiration for better, or idealism, and second from the fear. Humans have a need for spirituality, and also they need the safety of a higher power watching over them; even the most primitive societies had some primitive form of belief. We are more than just flesh and blood, more than just animal instincts. I think is in our genes to not be satisfied with only our material side of existence. No matter how advanced in technology our society will become, an essential ingredient for human happiness is spirituality. We want to be happy, and we want to be safe. That's the way it is.

On the other side, organized religion took this human need for spirituality, and this human basic fear and twisted them, transformed them in a mass control tool, the most effective so far. But let's not throw the water with the baby in it.
I think religion should change; yes, it's time for a new prophet, with a better message for humanity, with a better option. This religion (if you talk about christianity) will probably die, but only when a better one will appear to replace it. But there will never be a human society without any belief at all - and without the opportunists to make a buck from it. This is a never ending story.

reply to post by Ilyich


religion is personal.

if you don't want yours, great. ignore it and stop worrying about it.

I'm really happy with mine tho, and find it incredibly selfish of you to want something that brings me so much security and comfort to die.

maybe you're just evil and in denial?

reply to post by Kastogere


Thankyou! I don't think i could have said it better myself! It seems that man will forever always look to blame anything but his own nature! It is man and his free will that do all the horrable things you so often hear about but it is also man that sacrifices himself because of love for another individual! This sacrifice goes beyond instinct to a higher level of conscience! Is it a mystery why we don't hear about those good individuals! Or could this be just another means of control along with organized religion, money, propaganda and military! All these things created by men not by God! Because we have fee will! It would be extreamely nieve, as well as ignorant to know one way or the other without any proof that god does or does not exist! This is the beginning to finding our faith! I don't think it's usually anything huge but mostly small things! It's not about churches or bibles but only about aspiring to love, understanding, sacrifice, and empathy! Those are the things that bring us into view to give meaning to life! It is mostly in these actions where we can form a bond with the creator! I've even heard that sometimes out of desperation he can be found! Though most of this is my opinion! Most of my life I had no faith in God but today i have assended to a faith i have never known! I am not here to sway you one way or another just to inform you so you may make a choice as a individual whether you believe it's possible, probable or unlikely! I suggest never dismissing anything and you will never be disappointed or suprised!

I will not even read your thread. with all of the s--t hitting the fan and the unrest, if you do not believe that we need more God then you are simply a fool. But that is your right.

I hear this a lot, "Religion is the cause of wars", "Religion creates divides". May I offer another perspective.

Its very clear in the Commandments 'you should not kill' (Jews, Christians, Muslims ALL believe this) Yet they all are manipulated by their religious leaders to kill and hate.

We have the sickest, most twisted person Adolf Hitler, shaking hands with the pope!!! (photograph is easily available) My daughter (who is 11years old) came home from school, telling me Adolf Hitler was a Christian. I have been researching WW1 & WW2, The Nazi empire for a few years now (after visiting Anne Franks house in Amsterdam), I was amazed last year when I watched an old stock footage film of Adolf Hitler clearly stating that Christianity was a disease and should be eradicated. So we have a Man, who murders people, spreads hatred, hates Christianity, hates black people, being portrayed as a Christian by the Catholic Church while he was committing genocide and is now being broadcast as a Christian in our schools.

I've seen it myself a long line of young soldiers being sent to their deaths and with the full knowledge they may have to kill, the religious leaders (on both sides) saying "god is on our side", "god be with us".

So in this perspective, religion is not wrong, the teachings are, yet no-one questions these ungodly teachings. In reality when there is a war ALL religious leaders should be voicing against murder, instead they incite it.

Have you studied Satanism? Do know what a Satanist believes? How do they preach and teach? You never drive down the street and see an evil building with a big sign saying "Church of Satan, services every Sunday 9am-12pm", so where does a true Satanist worship?

Another question I get is "why would god allow all this death, all these children to die of starvation" there is a simple answer to this, God isn't, You/I/we are. Which for some strange reason offends most people. When you pay your taxes you pay for war. In 2009 an average of 120 children (under 16) EVERY DAY in Afghanistan were killed by UK and US troops, when you hear "collateral damage" that's what they're really talking about. When I watched on TV the government announcing that it was sending Millions of pounds in charity to Africa, I thought to myself wonderful, then I find out 1 year later every penny went on building a golf course at the UN, and a fleet of state of the art, fully kitted Landrovers. WTF? What do we the people do? 'sit back, feet up, beer in hand, TV on, not my problem, blame everyone else.

I will never be able to show you God, make you believe in God, nor will I ever try to force you in to religions, living "my way or you'll go to hell" nonsense, but I can defend the true words spoken, to show the false teachings, show how easily people are manipulated and used by relying purely on blind faith.

So in my opinion, religion doesn't have to die, the false teachings and manipulation need to.

I do not argue science, it truly blows the mind. Atoms, Molecules, The periodic table, all I see is perfection. If one of those things were not perfectly in place we would not exist.

Originally posted by prophetboy12
I will not even read your thread. with all of the s--t hitting the fan and the unrest, if you do not believe that we need more God then you are simply a fool. But that is your right.

This is the problem! People focusing too much on their god (whatever name he might have)...at the same time forgetting there are more important thing (I MEAN IT)..start with the human person next to you.

We do not need "more god", we need more people learning how we as HUMANS live with each other....a "religion" where the focus is HUMANS, teaches values such as compassion, peace etc... not some "god" or making it the utmost priority to "talk to god". And..who knows..maybe you would actually experience your god or find out what giod is by starting to learn to care etc. for actual humans.