I think it's time for Religion to die.

reply to post by DarknStormy


That's a powerful question to ask. If all religions were to be abolished today, what would the world do tomorrow?

When desperate, mankind has done some great and terrible things...

reply to post by DarknStormy
reply to post by AfterInfinity


Honestly, it would probably fix a lot more problems outweighing whatever benefit religion serves. If you got rid of "religion" as an institution people could still hold whatever beliefs they wanted to without the zealotry and all the maliciousness and bigotry that comes with it.

reply to post by Ilyich


I agree with the statement that it's time for religion to die 10000% I've never understood the need or want for religion since I was a little boy. Guess I was one of those who got it at a younger age. Some people never do get it sadly. Explaining to them why I simply don't believe is a futile exercise.

Think of how much faster humanity could grow and evolve spiritually if there was no religion. Maybe thats the whole point of religion to keep humans in a box.

anyways from my perspective it seems apparent that people are quickly loosing their need, want or interest in religion. Don't get me wrong religion is still waaaaaay too prevalent around the world, but it seems to me as the world develops more intellectual resources such as mass communication and the internet people are beggining to loose their ignorance and with it their belief in religion. Mass education and closing the gaps on ignorance is where the downfall of religion will play out. I believe we are seeing that starting to happen now on a broad world stage. People are just tired of religion. It has no place in humanities future, especially if we are concerned about growing as a species.

Originally posted by Ilyich
It's a scape goat for many individuals in pretty much every situation life has to offer. I'm sure after I right this very post some will come in quoting scripture, and then they will have to explain why it is relevant, and pull a message out of it that is less than obvious, and this is supposed to justify both my post and everything we experience in life.

God, The Devil and religion are excuses, and extraordinary explanations for things some people do not, or can not understand. It's much easier to tell a child, when asked why the sky is blue " That's the way god made it." Then to have to know the answer, and break it down in a manner that they can understand.

I'll start with that. Don't you think that's a very closed minded attitude to have? If I believe in God, why does that mean I am looking for a scape goat or excuse for things? How does me not believing in evolution mean I do not enjoy science or learning how things work? Why do I automatically become intellectually inferior because I believe in God?
I do not feel that way about someone that doesn't believe in God, I just think they are wrong on that issue.

Originally posted by Ilyich
It's blanket statement that really doesn't apply to any of it, and the number one argument for God created Everything is that we can not prove he didn't. Isn't the statement Innocent until proven guilty? Didn't happen until it's proven to have happened? Where is the proof god did it? Just because we and everything else is here doesn't mean he did it.

How is me saying "God is real, prove He isn't" any different than you Saying "there is no God, prove there is"? I never use that argument, I'm just pointing out that if you do, your logic here makes no sense.

Originally posted by Ilyich
Religion, in and itself creates more problems that it solves, and I will tell you why I believe this to be the case. The ideal, that when we die, believing, loving, and obedient to god we get to go to heaven removes a sense of responsibility and care from our lives. This notion, that no matter what god has our backs, prevents many individuals from truly doing everything in their powers to take care of themselves. As well this notion, that all the evil in the world is the work of a devil is even worse. Again, we take the responsibility away from man, and place it on a fictional character. Religions card up the sleeve for this is the idea of hell. If you disobey, or do not devote yourself to god, you will be punished for eternity. No, I'm sorry it doesn't fly. I'm all for the idea that after life there is something, but again this in itself has enormous amounts of recoil.

The concept that there is something after death, removes the importance of life. Humans, act crazy and reckless because it's been imprinted since birth that when they die they will move on to a glorious paradise, and never have to worry about their earthly woes. This is the same tactic used on suicide bombers, " When you die, fighting for your people and mighty god, you will be rewarded in paradise with 70 virgins." Sounds pretty good right? You're not going to feel the explosion, it will be over in a fraction of a second and you will move on to a world that makes this one look like KFC.

While this may be true for some religions, it is not true for Christianity. since you didn't want any scriptures quoted, I wont, but I will say God has instructed that we take care of ourselves, and the world we live in.

The whole, learning right and wrong from your parents and your society does not work very well either. Look at what is common practice in some places around the world. With societies that except women as little more than property. Is that right or wrong? Who decides that? You? Your parents? Your Congress? Just because something is illegal, does not mean it's wrong. Just because something is legal, does not make it right.

I'm not looking to argue just to argue, I don't have time for that. If you want to have an open discussion about the topic, I am game, provided we can treat each other with respect.

One of the reasons religions develop though is because people have experiences - they have out of body travel, they have a moment of rapture and clarity where they are one with the entire universe, they see a ghost, etc., etc. - and they then try to relate this to other people. THEN a whole "system" of rules is designed for how to apparently achieve the same experience, or if not to achieve the same experience, then to practice the morality that experience suggests. Of course it never works because there is no one way for anyone to achieve these things and no one ever remembers that.

Most religions of today make their believers think that they cannot achieve spirituality of any sort without going to a church. All religions preach about some form of afterlife, but if anyone claims to have seen it or been there (out of body travel, ghosts etc.) it's denied. You can't do this alone. You can't do this at ALL! You must come to this church.

I think one of the main problems is that no one really knows the answer, yet people are trying, reaching and trying to figure ourselves out. I firmly believe: there will always be glimmerings of something beyond the world that we know which is WHY people reach for it. I think it's fine not to believe there's anything more than this, but if you don't believe that, you will reach for more. And for some people, not me, it's religion.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by DarknStormy

 

That's a powerful question to ask. If all religions were to be abolished today, what would the world do tomorrow?

When desperate, mankind has done some great and terrible things...

The world would be in anarchy if the leaders of today suddenly ended all practices of religion tommorow.

Originally posted by RSF77
reply to post by DarknStormy
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Honestly, it would probably fix a lot more problems outweighing whatever benefit religion serves. If you got rid of "religion" as an institution people could still hold whatever beliefs they wanted to without the zealotry and all the maliciousness and bigotry that comes with it.

edit on 31-7-2012 by RSF77 because: (no reason given)

People have the choice to believe what they want now and religious people choose to believe the bible, koran or any other religious book. I don't believe in a corrupt political system. Should we kill politics? Because to a certain degree, it is just another system based on someone elses beliefs that we all must abide by, similar to religion. It has the same consequences as religion, war, death etc... They are pretty darn close actually.

reply to post by Ilyich


I'm going to attempt a very short response to a very long post. My couple of main thoughts on your post are this:

1) you seem to have a very simplistic and biased view as to what religion is - as if you've only been exposed to what I think of (my personal opinion) as the most small-minded, missing-the-point type of religious individuals. Many people are religious but nothing at all like what you see religion as being.

2) religion is NOT necessary, as you pointed out. Hundreds of millions of people have lived lives without it. Like many things in life, we choose to partake or to not partake - what's the problem if someone is more spiritually fulfilled with religion?

Your post would make a lot more sense to me if it was a simple declaration that religion just isn't the thing for you. All you have to do is ask a happily religious person if their life would be better without religion and you'll have your answer as to whether it should be done away with. For the vast majority of Earth's population, that answer would be "no."

I'm religious, yet I study quantum physics, and I don't believe that people's decisions are made because God or the devil males those decisions for them (heck, any true Christian knows that we have the free will to choose for ourselves, so such an argument certainly doesn't apply to Christians who know anything about their religion.) it just seems like your idea of what religion is comes without much, if any, knowledge if the reality of what religion is.

reply to post by DarknStormy

Should we kill politics?

YES.

Because to a certain degree, it is just another system based on someone elses beliefs that we all must abide by, similar to religion. It has the same consequences as religion, war, death etc... They are pretty darn close actually.

Absolutely. Star, and applause (all I can do is give you one star)....
Yes....we should kill politics AND religion,
and start over.

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst
I have to say that the fundamental problem with Religion -- any religion, is when you can get people to believe uncritically in nonsense, then you can get them to do anything.

Lets look at TV as a religion. Because most people watch it like it is god, don't they? Add nonsense from media stations who get people to believe anything they pretty much say without critical thinking and you have something very similar.

Religion is an issue, but I can think of many others that could be dealt with before it... I read the bible twice and it changed something inside me. I don't go to church every sunday or recite verses, It done something to me and changed my entire outlook on this world. Religion is what you make it...

Heres another thing I do not understand... Why do people have to swear on the bible in a political institution when the political system itself is nothing more than a never ending lie?

Remember, OP, that many people have faith but still maintain very different religious beliefs. Such beliefs run the spectrum from a belief God w/ Jesus his son as our savior and they take the word of the Bible literally,. Then, on the other end, you have those who believe in a supreme being but think Jesus (if he existed) was merely a man and the Bible is a piece of fiction written by man. I personally think that we are all allowed our opinion and I get a little irate when someone tells me what and how I should believe - that's my choice. That goes for Bible beaters as well as athiests.

Religion is just a way of thinking, just like your way of thinking in the OP. It's an opinion someone believes in.

Just think about how much chaos politics has caused in the world, if religion didn't exist (which would be unnatural) humans would find many other reasons to fight and cause problems, they will find something and use it as a tool just like religion is used as a tool for political/power agendas.

As a Muslims ats member I feel I should put forward the case of Islam. Now before I start I would like to say that as a member of ats we should all share our views in an appropriate way so as to better each other. I appreciate the constructive views of others here because I feel that they believe that others can benefit from their viewpoint. Much in the same way I am sharing by views on Islam because I feel it will be positive in terms of helping others. If you felt you knew the very purpose of life... would you not share it with others? Anyway here goes...

Well I can see that many here like to have some hard scientific facts to support arguments, I myself was much the same when i started to look at the world religions... to my suprise when I looked at Islam I found that rather than contradict science it actually confirms many things we have come to learn, and many scientific facts are found in the Quran (over 1400 years old) which we have only discovered in the modern age with the advancements of technology... now I could write a book talking about all the scientific proofs in the Quran, but here are just a few...

The universe expanding and the big bang ---

Many of you will know a little about the big bang and how modern space theory dictates that the universe is expanding as with modern telescopes we have been able to measure that the distance between celestial objects is increasing therefore the universe is expanding... well look at the following versezs in the Quran:

“And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander.” (Quran 51:47)

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
(The Qur'an, 21:30)


The ratio of land and sea ----

The ratio of the appearances of the words "sea" and “land" in the Qur’an is identical to the ratio between sea and land in modern science. The continents had not yet been discovered at the time the Qur’an was sent down, and it was impossible to determine the ratio between the land and sea. Even such a large continent as America was only discovered in the 15th century.

The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur’an, while “sea” appears 32 times. These numbers total 45. If we divide the number of references to land in the Qur’an, 13, by 45, the result is 28.8888888889%. When we divide the number of references to sea in the Quran, 32, by 45, the result is 71.1111111111%. these ratios are the exact ones that apply between water and dry land on Earth.

The repetition of these words in the Qur’an may be an indication that the Earth is 71% covered in water and 29% in dry land. (Allah knows the truth.) It has only been possible to arrive at this ratio in the present day, thanks to satellite photos and computer calculations.

Orbits---

While referring to the Sun and the Moon in the Qur'an, it is emphasized that each moves in a definite orbit.

"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)

The sky and Ozone layer---

The atmosphere only lets rays required for life reach the Earth. Ultraviolet rays, for example, make it to the world only partially. This is the most appropriate range to allow plants to make photosynthesis and eventually for all living things to survive.

In the Qur'an, God calls our attention to a very interesting attribute of the sky:

"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs.."
(The Qur'an, 21:32)

This attribute of the sky has been proved by scientific research carried out in the 20th century.

The atmosphere surrounding the earth serves crucial functions for the continuity of life. While destroying many meteors big and small as they approach the earth, it prevents them from falling to earth and harming living things.

In addition, the atmosphere filters the light rays coming from space that are harmful to living things. Interestingly, the atmosphere lets only harmless and useful rays- visible light, near ultraviolet light, and radio waves pass through. All of this radiation is vital for life. Near ultraviolet rays, which are only partially let in by the atmosphere, are very important for the photosynthesis of plants and for the survival of all living beings. The majority of the intense ultraviolet rays emitted from the sun are filtered out by the ozone layer of the atmosphere and only a limited-and essential-part of the ultraviolet spectrum reaches the Earth.

The protective function of the atmosphere does not end here. The atmosphere also protects the earth from the freezing cold of the space, which is about minus 270° C.

I could go on and talk about some of the other miracles, some more suprising than the ones mentioned but I'll stop there and see what yall think...

reply to post by Ilyich


You want religion to die? You should see how people treat science and secular philosophies.

You act as if the practices done through 'religion' are exclusive to itself. Go think about it before you try to start a war.

reply to post by Ilyich


You want religion to die? You should see how people treat science and secular philosophies.

You act as if the practices done through 'religion' are exclusive to itself. Go think about it before you try to start a war. I know a lot of atheists who are far more ritualistic and susceptible to superstition than those 'religious people' which you speak of.

I am terribly sorry. I thought you said it was time for REPUBLICANS to die. I take my star and flag back.

What your post can be condensed to is what every atheist believes, "I disagree with you. I don't believe in God, therefore you are wrong and there shouldn't be any religion". That's really what you are saying. You believe that, by chance, every living thing in the universe came from one, single, solitary, microscopic "life cell" and "evolved" into every living thing ever known to man. You believe that that cell just "appeared" from nowhere, yet you can't tell me where "nowhere" is. I can give you a thousand examples of why "evolution" simply isn't possible but somehow I don't think you will be open to that discussion.

Personally I avoid discussing such issues as this with atheists for the simple reason is that it's like discussing physics with a housefly. At least an agnostic is open to discussion or perhaps persuasion but an atheist's mind is inaccessible, much like talking to a housefly. After all, that is the difference between an atheist and an agnostic.

What you also suggest is that you are so intolerant of religion that you would prefer to remove it from the other 90% of the population who happen to believe in some form of deity. Now, you say you don't need religion to teach morals, good behavior, etc. but I ask this; how is it that you somehow didn't learn anything about respecting other's beliefs rather than suggesting their abolishment? It sounds to me like your "system" of being raised was missing an important element.

reply to post by Kamza


Very interesting to say the least.

I haven't done much research on the Koran but from what i have read, it isn't a bad book.

Wow, don't believe in something and demand it be abolished. Yeah, that's about as open minded as one can get.
Science can not go forward because of religion? I guess that's true..Except for...
Copernicus,Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Isaac Newton,Einstein..Well..This is getting to be too long. So I looked up a list of some scientists that had faith. Scientists that believed in God

There are people involved in religion that are just asshats. And that makes it easy to say it's all BS. But like every other aspect of humanity people are very adept at messing things up. WE are a flawed species so we are good at screwing up things or just simply misunderstanding.
I do think we as people probably do not have a true handle on what God is all about. Because of this we use a plethora of tools to deny or support thew idea of God. It is very apparent to me though that the one thing we have as humans is the free will to choose a path for ourselves. Having faith or not is something we all have to make a choice to do.
I personally do not believe that we have to attend a church to gain Gods approval or to be able to find the truth. It was the son of a carpenter that had never built a church but wandered around teaching the word of God. But for all those hypocrites in churches..Isn't that just a great place for them to be? It might be the only way for them to get the understanding of the error of their ways. WE all went to school to learn at one point in our lives. I'll wager not one of you can say that was a 100% waste of your time and that school need be abolished.

Bottom line though to believe in God or not we have to allow for a degree of faith that we have made the right choice. No one can prove or disprove the existence of God. All we can do is allow our faith one way or the other to exist. And be comfortable with the choice we have made.

Bare in mind nowhere in any aspect of theology dopes it say we are to be led by the nose by God and that this God will keep us safe and no bad things will happen. We are always allowed to make a choice. From what I've learned in my search for knowledge is God uses a very light touch. So as we are not too dependent but not too light that we are given proof of non existence. Just because we don't see an old man on a cloud tossing lighting bolts at people means that God is not there. Bad things are going to happen to good people. Why? I have no idea. But it happens.

Religion is built on both faith and the people that believe in that faith. It's people that wrote down things that became the texts of these religions. So we will have misunderstandings and just flat out messed up thinking sometimes. There is room for both religion and science. But even the science that so many are hell bent to put all their faith in gets it wrong some times. When I went to school there where Brontosaurs. Now there is not because some science guys messed up. We have people today that can do their best to explain how something that never existed just exploded into existence. Yet we have no one that can tell you how all this something exploded from nothing. There are theories, but no real facts. And as we watch history being made day after day we will see how theories will be nullified by new theories or facts proving the old ones incorrect.
But science exists and I'm glad it does. I'm also glad that there are people of faith willing to say it all started with an existence that allowed all this something to mysteriously appear from what seemed to be nothing at all.

We as intelligent people need to be able to understand within ourselves there will be things that we don't fully understand and we may not agree with these things. But that is no reason to say that the disagreeable thing needs to just disappear. And I believe it to be a very dangerous thing to consider. There are those that walk behind the banner of believe as we do or die. I think this is very wrong thinking. It's just as wrong to say that religion needs to just go away.

reply to post by nosacrificenofreedom


Did you read the thread? A huge part of the opinion I presented has to do with man using religion as an excuse. Using god, satan, his minions, demons as an excuse. Using a book written by man as an excuse to exile certain groups.

I'm trying to be pleasant but I have a hard time with the ignorance of the over zealously religious.

Look, I respect that you believe in god, I respect that your religion works for you, how ever I can not accept that you can treat individuals differently because your " religion " says it's okay. It's time for man to stand up and say no, we are all equal, before god, before man, woman and child, we are the same. Stop it. You're attempting to use it against me, and I'm not going to bite.