I think it's time for Religion to die.

Originally posted by SparkOfSparks6
Yes Religion does such things, but Religion cannot be backed if its not integrated with culture. Culture is the real culprit to your ranting and dislike of religion. A thing like Science vs Religion, creates the duality in which modern culture dwells upon. Now that you are seeing the naturalistic point of view of the nature of life, you dislike the religious perspective. Strip your self of both of those social dualistic way of thought, you are an independent being of thought. Simply focusing on the reason why religion is false and the scientific way is correct still puts you on the duality of social thought.

These are my thoughts to your post. For I am a believer that yin cannot live without yang, as science cannot live without religious or spiritual doctrines. Rationality may prove to you and other people on this site as a way of understanding. But rationality cannot be there without feelings, as a waterfall cannot be there without water. Living in a paradoxical universe is tricky, being infatuated with those two ways of thoughts puts you switching sides or clueless.

Thought of neither yin or yang, science or religion, rationality or intuition. Is my answer to your hatred towards religion. My answer to you is thinking like the universe(self-contradictory) makes you understand why both of these must exist.

edit on 30-7-2012 by SparkOfSparks6 because: (no reason given)

Do not take this as an attack, I was born curious, but why must religion and science require each other to exist?

I was born curious, and through this I asked question, my favourite. Why? In my years on this earth I have found religion does nothing more than spread and perpetuate confusion. It keeps the world in a duality, in a life with out religion I have learned an immense amount of knowledge, I have questioned, looked for answers, evaluated, sought out more answers, and so on. I am simply looking to understand all, and though I know not all the answers are there, nor may I ever learn about the entire universe, but I can try and am I wrong for wanting to know, or understand? Religion may say so. The tree of knowledge. It is written that seeking knowledge is a sin, this has been spun, retranslated and interpreted into carnal knowledge, but sex is natural why is that a sin? So I look to the latter, and some religions stand to prevent questions as well as answers.

I have no beef with your views or beliefs, in fact what you believe seems a harmony between science, and the nature of the world. Things are the way they are, because they are. I believe that as well, but lean more towards science. Thank you for your thoughts, and though I may come off as hateful, but to achieve critical answers to the questions I have, it requires putting those reserved on the defense.

reply to post by HangTheTraitors

Religion, with out understanding is just another excuse.

I like your response, it in itself explains a lot, and lends credence to the suppression of questioning. S for you

Ah, I should have been more clear. I do not feel threatened by your OP, I meant to convey that I was worried about general spirituality coming under attack in the future. That might not be the case, as you illustrated. And as you said, we do have similar views on organized religion.

I like your idea that "from death comes new life." To me, that represents the idea that if the current organized religion dies, it could lead the way for something even more spiritual and true to rise.

We are at the dawning of a new age, after all, and at the dawning of each new age there usually arrives a new prophet.

I think faith and religion are two completely different things. I am happy for those with faith. I am not happy with religion.

I think if the organizations behind the religions were left to self fund - i.e. do without the tax exemptions (funny how the religious right love the idea of hands-off government and personal responsibility, yet support funding churches in this way!) - there would be a dwindling of the impact of organized religion in day to day life. Lose the lobbyists. Lose the 'faith based initiatives.' Lose the political bile coming from the pulpits. Keep the faith for those who need it.

What you'd be left with would be people trying hard to live in a manner befitting their faith, rather than repeating trite dogmatic silliness like robots.

There's an old saying (an I'm paraphrasing) that the easiest way to atheism is to actually read the Bible.
I think if people were left to their own devices on the content of all the holy books (not just Christian), they would see that those stories are not quite what they have been told they are.

In my experience, I have never met a religious zealot who was pure to their faith. There's always a loophole that they can find (e.g. free will, the devil etc.) to justify their transgressions. Either it's all correct, or it's not. Don't tell me that the Bible (for example) is the true word of god, and then edit out all the bits you don't like.

Tax them. We'll see how long they last.

Originally posted by Pinke
reply to post by Ilyich

 

You should read Hitchens, Stenger (generally the new atheists) and a few of the counter arguments I think as they've been done over and over again in academic settings.

If you haven't already, its good to familiarize yourself with the core arguments.

Perhaps, I will. I'm always looking for new reading material.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Thank you! Your emotions oozed from your words it gave me chills, and felt as though I was right there with you shouting it from your soul.

I have to say much of what I'm trying to do here, and much of what I have learned was born of the same primal desire of your words.

The difference between man and animal is we really are one, we just don't understand how similar we are. We're taught we are all uniquely different when in reality we can take any person throw them in a room, and they will likely respond to any and all we expose them to very similarly. An animal in a big enough cage, will adapt quickly being he has all he needs. ( this includes space to roam, food, things to do, mates, so on.) A man will always wonder what is on the other side, this is the same with our own planet. All of us, wonder what is beyond that big blue wall above us.

I don't want to taint your thoughts or feelings here, so I will finish with this. Never stop thinking, questioning or seeking your own answers. Never forget who or what you are, only you can discover this, and most of all never stop feeling. It seems our world is moving further and further away from emotion, to pre-canned logic and feelings. Live.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.
I don't believe religion needs to die,
I believe reason, education and honesty need to be born.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by Ilyich

 

Good read. I starred you for content, and as I said, I appreciate the time and effort that obviously went into that. I too would like to see an end to the Book Religions, Christianity and Islam, for I sincerely believe a great deal of Warfare, and Tribal and Economic conflicts could be stopped..... if not for religious beliefs. I believe all forms of mind control should be stopped. Human Beings are evolving fast right now, and we are all getting ready for the next step, as it were.
One must ask themselves, what does religion provide for me? Are my prayers answered, or ignored? Does God talk to me, or is it just my inner voice speaking, telling me what I want to hear? Do I really believe the fables my pastor preaches about? Am I afraid?
Some may need religion, and something bigger than they, but all do not.

Thank you for the star but most of all the read! I think the questions you have posted here are questions we should all ask ourselves. Again, I have said this a couple times, and of course I am more biased to those who exert a certain quality, but never stop questioning and never stop believing in your beliefs. This applies to both sides, and I apologize for the angle but it's worked, so thank you to everyone for your well thought out, well composed replies. I may say this a billion more times, to a as many more replies in between so everyone gets to hear it. Never stop questioning, never stop seeking answers, if you have to follow religion to find the answers I guess you can, but I feel it's kept others in a different place than those who do not.

I often feel I have to sensor certain topics, feelings and thoughts with those religious before I get a bible quote, or a response of absolute hatred and judgment. Don't get me wrong there are those in certain religions that exude wonderful qualities but the majority do have a certain group, or personality trait they will not be so pretty towards.

I'm surprised by how many of you have responded well, I'm glad I chose this forum to write this I feel you all have a welcome mind to questions.

Originally posted by Murgatroid
Excellent thread OP.

First impression I got was that you are actually looking for the TRUTH, something I rarely see here on ATS. WHY is that? That is what prompted me to reply.

You see my number one problem with religion, is everything and everyone is a creation of god.

In my opinion, the number one problem with religion is that it is one HUGE stealth LIE.

Until you come to terms with the FACT that it is a massive mind control tool, you will NEVER figure it out.

why do we perpetuate the story of Religion?

The entire NWO agenda revolves around removing God by creating mass hatred through false religion. The elite created religion as a Mind Control tool with a hidden agenda that revolves around permanently separating us from God.

Religion is the greatest enemy of God, because it is Satan's greatest deception.

Religion is nothing more than a mind control cult in disguise.

The TRUE agenda of all false religion is to blind and misguide you away from the truth.

Religion will NEVER tell you the TRUTH...

Religion LIES, HATES, & KILLS...

THIS is how we KNOW that God is not the author of Religion

Every major religion in the world is a LIE:

"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati to enslave and brainwash society. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control. The indoctrination of the masses by a "Trojan Horse" false religion has allowed the Illuminati to take control and work in secret for many, many years." Link

Religion is a major tool of the Illuminati agenda

Deception Through Religion
All false religions are illuminati created
The Catholic church and Islam are frauds
Satan is behind ALL false religion







Thank you, I appreciate the time you took to read my post. Part of this is the problem I have with religion, all through out a majority of religions it goes over unconditional love and acceptance of god and his words. Why ? My parents taught me to ask questions and have shown unconditional love and acceptance whether I agree disagree, doubt or dislike their judgment, thoughts and opinions. Thank you for adding your thoughts to the discussion and I'm very curious as to where it will go from here.

Originally posted by oak123

From the OP: "The concept that there is something after death, removes the importance of life. Humans, act crazy and reckless because it's been imprinted since birth that when they die they will move on to a glorious paradise, and never have to worry about their earthly woes."

I do not agree with this. The opposite can easily be argued as well: the concept that there is nothing after death removes the importance of life because your actions ultimately mean nothing and therefore there is no meaningful reason not to act reckless (nihilist view).

Bottom line is there are good religious people and bad religious people and good non-religious people and bad non-religious people. People don't act "crazy and reckless" or make selfish/bad decisions because they are atheist or because they are religious, they do so because that is the nature of their character. Thus it is not religion OR non-religion that are the problem, it is people.

And religion itself does not cause problems, people with religion cause problems. Like "guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people." In fact, most religions, when interpreted correctly, promote goodness/love- again, people distort the message of religions and then others blame evil acts upon the religions.

And also I am honestly tired of hearing the "people only follow religion for the reward." Some people, yes, follow, say, Christianity because it says if they do they will go to heaven. But people who are calling themselves Christian only for the reward do not get the point of the religion itself, which is to promote love/goodness/sacrifice, etc. regardless of the reward... hence scripture like "you will recognize them by their fruits."

So what i'm trying to say is that religion doesn't need to go/change, just the people/agendas/selfishness that distort its message and produce evil. Spirituality itself is one of the most important things for the human race, IMO, and should not be grown out of/thrown away because of progress that science makes.

I'm ecstatic with all the replies, and really appreciate everyone that has read and replied, I'm going to ask you a question as well, please do not take it as an attack.

If you did not have any of the religious perpetuation in your life how would you act? Many of us have grown up on one side or another of religion. This nihilist view, do you really believe you would act the way you suggest with out an afterlife? We all understand that humans are complex organisms, that are primarily service to self. However when we put a group of humans together, that group acts as one, I will use religion as an example. Religion perpetuates and nurtures religion. As humans have done each other time and time again, how ever Religion itself creates a duality, there are those who believe, and those who don't how ever those who do believe tend to have a negative stance towards those who don't. Christianity for instance teaches those who don't believe will go to hell. If we had nothing but this life, wouldn't we want to make the best of it? Doesn't it make sense that to have a better life, we would all work together? It's much easier to share, and see all of us prosper than to let one end of the scale fall and throw everything into chaos?

I don't necessarily mean this to sound communist because this isn't meant to be political and I understand how it sounds and know may will have entirely different stances and thoughts as soon as that becomes apparent. Another oogy boogy so many seem to hate.

Originally posted by ambient moon
What is this a communist thread. Sounds like something a dictator would say. I think I'll still to my freedom of religion.

I don't even know what to say to this. I'm not trying to control anyone merely get them to share, and help me understand, and perhaps answer some questions I have. The Original post was intended to heat, and start a debate. I was going to ignore this, but I'm not trying to promote or bash communism. I would prefer to keep this non-political thank you. Communism- a political ideal derived from community. Just had to throw that out there. If you're part of a community, you're technically communist ha ha.

Originally posted by darkbake
Ah, I should have been more clear. I do not feel threatened by your OP, I meant to convey that I was worried about general spirituality coming under attack in the future. That might not be the case, as you illustrated. And as you said, we do have similar views on organized religion.

I like your idea that "from death comes new life." To me, that represents the idea that if the current organized religion dies, it could lead the way for something even more spiritual and true to rise.

We are at the dawning of a new age, after all, and at the dawning of each new age there usually arrives a new prophet.

edit on 30-7-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

Evolution is all around us! Spiritual, logical, physical. I would like to meet the new prophet, I have a whole lot of questions I'd like answers to? I simply wonder, where will he be born? Will his words suffer the same mutation, that the lasts did over the years? Will the message get through this time, or will it simply set us back once more? I truly hope this new prophet comes from with in, and addresses all rather than the few, but with the way technology has allowed information to spread so rapidly he/she/it might have a better shot this time around.

Thank you for contributing to the thread, and continuing the discussion, I do appreciate it.

Thanks for your article. you were not arrogant or discriminative towards my beliefs and i respect that. I used to be an atheist. Something happened to me which im not going to say on here for the simple reason that i cant be arsed. I see science, i love science! however i see science working in Gods favor! i love seeing how complex life is, how unimaginable hard it is to believe that this all happened by accident. Im not against the idea of evolution either! i just dont think that disproves god, if science finally puts a definitive " ITS REAL EVOLUTION IS TRUE AND HERE IS THE PROOF" i would still believe in a creative God. Im one of the very few that thinks science and God should be hand in hand not head to head. Thanks for an awesome read everyone!

Originally posted by Badgered1
I think faith and religion are two completely different things. I am happy for those with faith. I am not happy with religion.

I think if the organizations behind the religions were left to self fund - i.e. do without the tax exemptions (funny how the religious right love the idea of hands-off government and personal responsibility, yet support funding churches in this way!) - there would be a dwindling of the impact of organized religion in day to day life. Lose the lobbyists. Lose the 'faith based initiatives.' Lose the political bile coming from the pulpits. Keep the faith for those who need it.

What you'd be left with would be people trying hard to live in a manner befitting their faith, rather than repeating trite dogmatic silliness like robots.

There's an old saying (an I'm paraphrasing) that the easiest way to atheism is to actually read the Bible.
I think if people were left to their own devices on the content of all the holy books (not just Christian), they would see that those stories are not quite what they have been told they are.

In my experience, I have never met a religious zealot who was pure to their faith. There's always a loophole that they can find (e.g. free will, the devil etc.) to justify their transgressions. Either it's all correct, or it's not. Don't tell me that the Bible (for example) is the true word of god, and then edit out all the bits you don't like.

Tax them. We'll see how long they last.

Thank you for your contributions. I truly believe what you say about the easiest way to true atheism is to read the bible. Being that I wasn't raised under any particular faith, when I decided I wanted to look at religion and try to learn more about it so I can understand the people who follow it, I felt I was left even more confused and with more questions than I started. Unfortunately the only way I have been able to get anything other than a regurgitated piece of scripture when trying to understand their beliefs is to upset or make them angry. They often use religion as an excuse for their behaviors and until I get at them, i don't understand. I've many times had arguments with religious individuals and used their bibles to prove my point sometimes even with the same passages they quote.

My favourite when The tree of knowledge. It's argued to mean so many things but literally, it says we will be punished from eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. !!! Red flag anyone else?

ha ha, thank you for your contribution, I feel so welcome and I appreciate the well written well thought out responses. I am not hateful, I am not angry, nor am I lost. I know where I am and where I want to go, how ever certain questions prevent me from moving further, I am simply seeking the answers I require before moving on.

Originally posted by glasshouse
Thanks for the thoughtful post.
I don't believe religion needs to die,
I believe reason, education and honesty need to be born.

Beautiful!!! I agree full heartedly! The title was meant to draw people in, and I'm happy it worked. As I said to another poster, From death, new life is born.

Originally posted by Ilyich

Originally posted by Pinke
reply to post by Ilyich

 

You should read Hitchens, Stenger (generally the new atheists) and a few of the counter arguments I think as they've been done over and over again in academic settings.

If you haven't already, its good to familiarize yourself with the core arguments.

Perhaps, I will. I'm always looking for new reading material.

I'd highly recommend it since you seem passionate about your thoughts on the subject.

I don't mean it in an offensive way (we all have to start somewhere) but you're starting at the ground floor of the debate really. There's even a few scientific arguments promoting an intelligent creator such as 'fine tuning' though I would ignore theorists like Ken Ham who promote the idea of a 5000 year old planet etc ...

If you ever want reading suggestions chuck me a U2U.

reply to post by Ilyich


NO, not very religious...and my family growing up was quite dysfunctional..hence no time for religion.

My view is under a simple premise..there are things in this world that we cannot grasp as a concept nor as a perceived truth bound to reality. Our minds simply are not capable of that....yet.

And what ever the psychology behind your assertion is, the physical boundaries simply do not allow us to understand anything further than our emotional programming. Once you break that we can make headway and answer some really old questions about what is, and what isnt.

Until that happens.....your idea while nice to humor and speculate...does not certainly bind any one individual other than yourself to that justification you propose, nor explain anothers motivation for clinging to religion.

Originally posted by ambient moon
What is this a communist thread. Sounds like something a dictator would say. I think I'll still to my freedom of religion.

Is that what you yourself have found in reality or is it what the others around you wanted you to think?

Would you even know the difference?

Originally posted by Pinke

Originally posted by Ilyich

Originally posted by Pinke
reply to post by Ilyich

 

You should read Hitchens, Stenger (generally the new atheists) and a few of the counter arguments I think as they've been done over and over again in academic settings.

If you haven't already, its good to familiarize yourself with the core arguments.

Perhaps, I will. I'm always looking for new reading material.

I'd highly recommend it since you seem passionate about your thoughts on the subject.

I don't mean it in an offensive way (we all have to start somewhere) but you're starting at the ground floor of the debate really. There's even a few scientific arguments promoting an intelligent creator such as 'fine tuning' though I would ignore theorists like Ken Ham who promote the idea of a 5000 year old planet etc ...

If you ever want reading suggestions chuck me a U2U.

Oh please, don't be worried about offending me, part of life as well as the pursuit of knowledge is accepting criticism, constructive or otherwise. I'm getting distracted by my dog, so if I miss something call me on it. I like the idea of starting from the ground up and quite frankly I stopped and questioned everything, as I'm starting to wonder what I really know, and what questions I should be asking. I can absolutely and romantically accept I truly know nothing, and to claim anything otherwise would make me a fool.

Originally posted by sparksgordon
Thanks for your article. you were not arrogant or discriminative towards my beliefs and i respect that. I used to be an atheist. Something happened to me which im not going to say on here for the simple reason that i cant be arsed. I see science, i love science! however i see science working in Gods favor! i love seeing how complex life is, how unimaginable hard it is to believe that this all happened by accident. Im not against the idea of evolution either! i just dont think that disproves god, if science finally puts a definitive " ITS REAL EVOLUTION IS TRUE AND HERE IS THE PROOF" i would still believe in a creative God. Im one of the very few that thinks science and God should be hand in hand not head to head. Thanks for an awesome read everyone!

Thank you Sparks! I appreciate that you can take the importance from my words, and subtract that which is fueled by opinion. I can't help but be curious what exactly has drawn you back towards faith, and I have to tell you I am not a man with out beliefs. I believe in what is described by most religion as angels or demons, how ever they don't necessarily get them right. I believe in a source(energy) conscious, unconscious I really don't believe that matters as what allows us to think, move, and exist is energy, science is aware of this. Whether or not that energy itself has any thought, personality, experience well that's a little hard to discern. I can't get to far into my beliefs as some of it can be hi-jacked and spun in many religious type ways, how ever I feel what I believe and feel is the same things religion uses to prove to those who follow it exists. God, no god, energy is there, it will always be there it's in us, it is us, it's the world around us. Anyone can feel it we just don't recognize it and it's not easy to teach, you just sort of stumble on it. It can feel good, bad, sad, or alien, it can come as words, thoughts feelings and images, but it's there. So I'm curious as to your experience, how ever as I've said Religion, as the organization itself Is my angel here, and as far as atheism goes, I believe many define themselves as an atheist because they don't follow a religion, but what definitions does it have.

I truly commend those who believe in something, but don't fit the definition of major religions, as well I am not here to belittle any for believing in their religion rather to seek answers. No one can tell anyone what is right for them, what they do or don't like and what they do and don't question. I'm letting a lot of myself come out in my replies, and those that have kept reading have hopefully seen what sounds so rash, hateful and angry had a purpose all in itself. I'm happy I didn't offend you as it wasn't my goal, and I'm happy you have found your own peace. I'm simply stating The organized religion has issues, and causes problems in my eyes. The fundamentals of the religion can be taught with out the opinions and reward.