I think it's time for Religion to die.

Originally posted by Kastogere
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Yes and No,

In the days of old religion and science went hand in hand as one created the other believe it or not. Again you cannot dismiss one because in todays world it doesnt vibe with the other.

But you are right in many ways as far as how people should evolve.

Philosophy and curiosity created science in direct opposition of the church.

reply to post by TheSubversiveOne


Please look to my post after that one as it further explains why I feel they were one in the same or at least brought about as such in the very beginning.

Excellent thread OP.

First impression I got was that you are actually looking for the TRUTH, something I rarely see here on ATS. WHY is that? That is what prompted me to reply.

You see my number one problem with religion, is everything and everyone is a creation of god.

In my opinion, the number one problem with religion is that it is one HUGE stealth LIE.

Until you come to terms with the FACT that it is a massive mind control tool, you will NEVER figure it out.

why do we perpetuate the story of Religion?

The entire NWO agenda revolves around removing God by creating mass hatred through false religion. The elite created religion as a Mind Control tool with a hidden agenda that revolves around permanently separating us from God.

Religion is the greatest enemy of God, because it is Satan's greatest deception.

Religion is nothing more than a mind control cult in disguise.

The TRUE agenda of all false religion is to blind and misguide you away from the truth.

Religion will NEVER tell you the TRUTH...

Religion LIES, HATES, & KILLS...

THIS is how we KNOW that God is not the author of Religion

Every major religion in the world is a LIE:

"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati to enslave and brainwash society. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control. The indoctrination of the masses by a "Trojan Horse" false religion has allowed the Illuminati to take control and work in secret for many, many years." Link

Religion is a major tool of the Illuminati agenda
Deception Through Religion
All false religions are illuminati created
The Catholic church and Islam are frauds
Satan is behind ALL false religion

oops sorry double post, if you can mods delete this post please

From the OP: "The concept that there is something after death, removes the importance of life. Humans, act crazy and reckless because it's been imprinted since birth that when they die they will move on to a glorious paradise, and never have to worry about their earthly woes."

I do not agree with this. The opposite can easily be argued as well: the concept that there is nothing after death removes the importance of life because your actions ultimately mean nothing and therefore there is no meaningful reason not to act reckless (nihilist view).

Bottom line is there are good religious people and bad religious people and good non-religious people and bad non-religious people. People don't act "crazy and reckless" or make selfish/bad decisions because they are atheist or because they are religious, they do so because that is the nature of their character. Thus it is not religion OR non-religion that are the problem, it is people.

And religion itself does not cause problems, people with religion cause problems. Like "guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people." In fact, most religions, when interpreted correctly, promote goodness/love- again, people distort the message of religions and then others blame evil acts upon the religions.

And also I am honestly tired of hearing the "people only follow religion for the reward." Some people, yes, follow, say, Christianity because it says if they do they will go to heaven. But people who are calling themselves Christian only for the reward do not get the point of the religion itself, which is to promote love/goodness/sacrifice, etc. regardless of the reward... hence scripture like "you will recognize them by their fruits."

So what i'm trying to say is that religion doesn't need to go/change, just the people/agendas/selfishness that distort its message and produce evil. Spirituality itself is one of the most important things for the human race, IMO, and should not be grown out of/thrown away because of progress that science makes.

reply to post by Kastogere


That is a wild guess, but I can understand what you mean and it may be probable. Read Bertrand Russel's History of Western Philosophy (one of my fav's). He goes into great detail regarding the beginnings of science, philosophy and religion.

Originally posted by oak123
I do not agree with this. The opposite can easily be argued as well: the concept that there is nothing after death removes the importance of life because your actions ultimately mean nothing and therefore there is no meaningful reason not to act reckless (nihilist view).

I disagree with this. Believing in and striving for an illusory afterlife is done at the expense of life. It puts more value on whatever is after death, while whatever is before it is only a means to an end. Once people stop putting so much value on things that are illusory or things that are merely hoped for, life can once again can be the focus of our value.

Actions always mean something in the real world. For all we know, they mean nothing in the next.

What is this a communist thread. Sounds like something a dictator would say. I think I'll still to my freedom of religion.

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by oak123
I do not agree with this. The opposite can easily be argued as well: the concept that there is nothing after death removes the importance of life because your actions ultimately mean nothing and therefore there is no meaningful reason not to act reckless (nihilist view).

I disagree with this. Believing in and striving for an illusory afterlife is done at the expense of life. It puts more value on whatever is after death, while whatever is before it is only a means to an end. Once people stop putting so much value on things that are illusory or things that are merely hoped for, life can once again can be the focus of our value.

Actions always mean something in the real world. For all we know, they mean nothing in the next.

I didn't mean to say that the OP was wrong, sorry- I meant to say that he is not necessarily right. Did you read my paragraph about how religion is not only about the afterlife/reward of Heaven? Sure, believing in something after death puts value in whatever that is, but that does not mean it is at the expense of life; that depends on the person's views. In my view, the afterlife would be a continuance of life, and our choices in life reflect what we will become in the afterlife. If i believe in an afterlife that doesn't mean that i simultaneously neglect the responsibilities of life.

Though I see what you are saying. Some people miss the point of religion because they just want to get to heaven, thus at the expense of life like you said. This is a problem. But you must realize that heaven is not the only point of the religion- thus it is not the religion that needs to be changed but the way people interpret religion. Most religion is really about love/forgiveness etc., during and after life.

Like I said before, it is not a person's religious or non-religious stance that causes them to do bad things in life, but just their personality/character in general... whether they are atheist or theist.

I did not read the whole thread OP, but the title of it caught my attention……

I think it is time for Religion to die.

My answer would be an outstanding “YES PLEASE!”

Followed by: Any chance this can happen by next Wednesday?

Religion = the biggest killer of man in known history and the largest contributor of negative human development.

DIE RELIGION DIE!!!!! So that we can grow as a species…….

Mickierocksman

Originally posted by Kastogere
I do not know what god is, but I know what he isn't.

Maybe what you really want is for religion to evolve into a more appropriate pardigm. 90% of the world believes in a deity and that will never go away.

Maybe what needs to happen is to join religion with science officially as it was orginally in the early times before the church. You see...the belief in god itself lends credence to science as if it didn't science wouldnt exist. At least not in the form we think about it. If some form of religion didn't come about with early mans desire to answer the question where are we from.....astrology would have not formed as quick as it did.

I mean really...one augments the other in some fashion you cannot just dismiss one because of programmed human behavior that has occured over time due to societal decree brought on from another mortal being.

Religion like much else on this planet is not now what it was meant to be and is severly broken.

In the end as well with science as religion....you have to have faith that the unseen answers to humanity will eventually be served in simplicity. Whether science or religion delivers that should make no difference if the answer presents itself.

You are speaking more along the lines of human programming I think rather than the throes and discord that religion is caused. If you really want to get to the bottom of the idea, you have to get to the root of the problem.

Which in this case would be mankind in general and the dogma he creates to keep people in line.

You my friend, either are from a religious family, attended a religious institution(private school.) Or have built your life with a foundation of religion.

If you are not religious, I apologize for making that assumption, but I will explain why. Religion was a creative, or right brain method for explaining all that is. How ever the thought that this was/is necessary for science to exist is a very creationist thought process.

I think science, was born as a logical thought to explain the world as it is. Perhaps it became as fruitful as it is because it borrowed ideas from religion but wanted to explain them other than " god did it." Religion in it's earliest forms wasn't what it is today, and I would have no problem worshiping the sun, moon, or nature, because in reality nature is responsible for all that is. How ever man, needed to explain why these things were important to other men, women and children and what easier way to explain the importance and complexity of these things than to personify them. If a physicist were to sit down with a class full of children to explain the sun and why it's important, the forces that act upon the earth, how it acts, it would be easier to obtain their attention, and help them retain the information by creating a character. I think much of this is why early religion has characters representing the sun, moon, rains, ocean and so on. Those who do not understand the science can certainly understand and accept that a being is the way he is because a being acts the way he is and that's it.

Science provides evidence and answers, and not a whole lot else once we understand it. Same as a man, they are complex but they are the way they are. Modern man, and man over the ages, lost the understanding of what these characters represent, wrote new stories, translated it, reinterpreted it, and over time the words lost meaning but the stories exist ever different than when they began. What we interpret as modern religion may have been ancient science, but it does not resemble it in the slightest today.

In your same thoughts, of the dogmatic control man created. Man created Religion, it's chalked full of rules and control, and what better way to control the masses with their fears and desires...


Wow, a whole lot of posts here I'm gonna be a busy bee.

God bless you.

Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by Ilyich

 

I think you are correct, however I follow a philosophy based on cause-and-effect (which teaches about healthy and unhealthy moral choices but does not judge, it simply shows people that it is in their best interest to make healthy choices) and believe in some aspects of spirituality such as free will, altruism, karma and the afterlife.

I don't want to see these values of mine attacked. I feel they are aspects of the true God, which organized religions in a lot of cases have lost touch with (especially in America, wtf)

To me, God works through science, and he would want people to make healthy choices for themselves and others, and to understand the universe, and to reach their full potential. Although he also gives us free will so that we can learn from our mistakes and be able to grow from our experiences.

I will make the bold claim that the Church is not following the will of God, that is what I think.

edit on 30-7-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-7-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-7-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

I appreciate your views and I'm sorry I came off as an attack, if you appreciate philosophy I would hope you could appreciate my title, as well as angle. From Death, comes new life. I am in no way attempting to attack you or your beliefs but you share mine in that you feel religion is not what it claims, nor does it hold much merit. I believe in a source, just not in the sense as the religious sect does. The world is filled with Energy, as is the universe, and science is just beginning to understand how Energy, can become matter, as we learned in the 50s how matter can become energy.

I absolutely appreciate your views, and I appreciate you explaining them to me. Thank you for contributing to the thread, and I will not object to you explaining to me or believing what you will.

A question is not an attack, but a means to an understanding.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
Well this is what happens when the blind (who are not able to achive Gnosis) preaches how you should achive gnosis. There is spiritual knowledge that can be found in Jesus and Buddhas teaching and Bhagavad Gita and Toltec New age to name a few sources that can help a person that is willing to question his/her own mind/ego/conditioning to find something more/connect to something more. The problem is not really with the knowledge but with the people not understanding it and just creating dualitydriven views where their ego is right and everyone else is wrong. I do not practice religon but I do enjoy the ideals and experiances that are written by people that have experianced gnosis and become a little more than humans in understanding. But then there is a thin line between crazy and genious and I have seen people that we describe as crazy but in fact know to much and cannot handle human smallmindedness anymore.

I have read the Ghita, I own 2 translations.
The old testament, new testament, king james and a whole variety of "Christian/catholic Bibles"
I've read the koran( only one translation, and this was born the last few years after 911 looking for understanding.)
I've read into buddhism
I've read into Ghandi, Hitler, rasputin, joan of arc, and many others who have claimed to be close to or spoke to god.

Please, do not think I claim to know the answers to all. I intend to question everything until the day I die, this includes myself. Just because I have not found " the answer " as you claim exists, why does that make me wrong, un-educated spiritually, or incapable of understanding? Relgion itself, is so diverse because different individuals may require a different answer to their questions, my issue is with the questions we ask. Why do I or anyone else need religion? Many of the things you wrote in your post require the breakdown of the ego, or understanding from within, before it can be applied outward. Isn't it odd to you that you must break yourself down, then build it up with the understanding written there?

Again, I'm no attacking you, please believe what you will. I'm merely asking questions, forgive me for the heated edge, but sometimes we need to make a wound before the blood will spill out.

Maybe what you really want is for religion to evolve into a more appropriate pardigm.

No, he said it should die, and many here like myself support that. Of course if I could change religion into a paradigm I support I could accept that.

Maybe what you really want is for religion to evolve into a mor 90% of the world believes in a deity and that will never go away.

100 years ago 90% of people didn't live in cities, now 2/3 do. Never say never.

Now do not get me wrong, I am an absolute believer there is something after death. How ever I do not think anyone realizes what it actually is. It's not Heaven, purgatory, or hell.. Though I'm sure you could convince yourself of exactly that. Much as many walking this Earth, believe this very thing about the place we currently reside. After this Life, you will move on to something else.

You make it sound like you've been there...

How much it resembles this life I could not begin to know or explain, but that's the problem. No one that has been there or is there has been successful in coming back to tell us.

Death is a mystical experience. Mystics die and come back all the time...

...the problem is not that you can't know. The problem is that as soon as you try to describe it for people, you are talking in metaphor and poetry. Metaphors can only be pushed so far, and poetry must be penetrated to the subtext...the menu is never the meal. The map is never the territory.

That doesn't mean its time for maps to die. People who think its time for religion to die can't read maps...can't penetrate poetry...can't decipher metaphor.

"God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."

-Joseph Campbell

Religion is merely man's attempt to reach God. God's attempt to reach man was Jesus His Son. The religious people of His day conspired with the atheists of His day to rid themselves of Him. Because He neither sought political favor and glory, nor the need to impress religious leaders in power. His way was love and they could not understand that.

Today, there is much ado about religion. But religion is not God, nor is being part of any religion going to influence or impress God. Only what you decide to do about His Son Jesus is all that will matter in the end. It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by SpearMint
Religion prevents scientific advancement, we're just lucky that some of the great minds that got us where we are now were able to think critically and question the universe. Eventually we will move on as a race and people will let go of old beliefs that were created when we understood nothing about our origin or the world around us, but that won't be for some time. People won't even accept evolution, largely due to complete misunderstanding of the process and how it happens, so there's no hope of moving on from the fairy tales holding us back.

I'm not religious as you probably guessed, yet I'm fairly sure I don't break any of the ten commandments, which shows you don't need religion to teach you moral values and how to leave a peaceful happy life. When I look at it like that it makes all the stories seem very redundant.

edit on 30-7-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

Exactly, Iron, nitrogen, oxygen and energy formed the earliest components to life. The salination, sun and the movements of the ocean fueled by the moon, created an environment for these building blocks to unite. Through science we have begun to understand our origins. I have an interesting thought for you. Mars, our red neighbour is chalked full of surface iron, the iron was delivered to earth in it's earliest stages. Supposedly as we were still a molten blob closer to our sun than we are today. Along with these meteorites/comets filled with iron, was quartz and other crystals containing gasses and water. From this the very first stages of life were born.

Is Mars a life once filled with life, lost today or is it merely the beginning. I like to ask this question because it puts a different spin on things, are we moving towards or away from the sun, How long does it take for a planet to be born of life. Science may tell you one or the other, but only time will tell. Our sun, is in a specific state too mind you and it too will begin to change.

Just thoughts to think on.

Originally posted by Saya13
A part of me wants to disagree. Religion does bring a lot of good into the world and gives some people a reason to keep living. However, at the same time, I think it is ridiculous that so many people need a reason like God to do good. Also, I don't think the amount of good religion brings to the world is enough to outweigh the bad. It gives too many people an excuse for their hatred.
Personally, I believe that people should focus more on living. You should focus on bringing good and happiness to others...just because it is the right thing to do. Not because a book tells you to or because you want to get into Heaven. They should quit worrying about what might be encountered after they die. We will all figure it out one day...and ya know what? If there is a God...I think he would be okay with that. If not...I don't think I'm that interested in any sort of "Heaven".

!!!!!!!!!!!! Ding, religion before man got to it.

I believe these beliefs are born with us. We naturally want to see everyone do well.

Originally posted by oak123

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by oak123
I do not agree with this. The opposite can easily be argued as well: the concept that there is nothing after death removes the importance of life because your actions ultimately mean nothing and therefore there is no meaningful reason not to act reckless (nihilist view).

I disagree with this. Believing in and striving for an illusory afterlife is done at the expense of life. It puts more value on whatever is after death, while whatever is before it is only a means to an end. Once people stop putting so much value on things that are illusory or things that are merely hoped for, life can once again can be the focus of our value.

Actions always mean something in the real world. For all we know, they mean nothing in the next.

I didn't mean to say that the OP was wrong, sorry- I meant to say that he is not necessarily right. Did you read my paragraph about how religion is not only about the afterlife/reward of Heaven? Sure, believing in something after death puts value in whatever that is, but that does not mean it is at the expense of life; that depends on the person's views. In my view, the afterlife would be a continuance of life, and our choices in life reflect what we will become in the afterlife. If i believe in an afterlife that doesn't mean that i simultaneously neglect the responsibilities of life.

Though I see what you are saying. Some people miss the point of religion because they just want to get to heaven, thus at the expense of life like you said. This is a problem. But you must realize that heaven is not the only point of the religion- thus it is not the religion that needs to be changed but the way people interpret religion. Most religion is really about love/forgiveness etc., during and after life.

Like I said before, it is not a person's religious or non-religious stance that causes them to do bad things in life, but just their personality/character in general... whether they are atheist or theist.

Sorry I didn't read your other paragraph. I now understand what you're saying and agree wholeheartedly. If only everyone shared such a tolerant view.

Although I would add that if people need religion to practice love and forgiveness, I would hate to see what those people would be like without it.