Prepare To Have Your Mind Boggled

Originally posted by Sinny
Add seven positive 1s, and seven minus 1s... You arrive with the sum of zero... Despite the fact there are *actually* 14 numbers.

You understand that adding a -1 is in fact subtracting a 1.
So you take on apple into the basket, and your next step is to remove on, add on, remove on.
Does it really boggles your mind that the basket is empty at the end?

Originally posted by Sinny
Is zero the absence of one "single" thing, or the presence of multiple things?

The zero points out that there is nothing. Nothing can´t be a single or multiple. Nothing is nothing. You have the give the number 0 a definition. Zero apples, Zero trees. So in this case you define zero to be the definition of multiple.

Originally posted by Sinny
What is the distinction between matter and empty space? Empty space, cannot be empty space, for it holds the potential for *all* form in the partical world.

You would be amazed how much empty space one atom contains. Really.

Originally posted by Sinny
All energy is available from empty space.

I think you did not understand that right. I don´t know where you read this but you clearly did not read carefully enough and so were not able to understand.

The rest is semantics.

Hi sinny, I was thinking along these lines, I was asking the same questions you ask in the op. i looked at the sybmbol 0, and found information in the way it was constructed.
Here's the thread I wrote.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I think you might like it.
There can only be zero in an illusion. As on the whole, there can never be nothing

reply to post by Wifibrains


Thank you, ill check that out now
And thanks to the people who have left me with food for thought.

As to the 2 posters, whos posts were simply to bash mine, feel better?
What you so bitchy about? Not getting laid?

Those thoughts I presented came from Michio Kaku, I'm sure you all know of him.
I didn't claim to turn water into wine yaknow. Crazy fools! Get some nuts!

reply to post by Sinny


Please see this thread:
Before The Big Bang

And this video:

reply to post by Sinny


Nothing....does it really exist in our world? Or do we need to go to the most distant places in space to find nothing.

Link: express.howstuffworks.com...

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Brilliant! I've just watched the first 22 minutes of the vid, and just had to pause to tell every one, this also states, that there is no such thing as nothing, because nothing is the canvas for everything!

Thanks for posting, I also recommend this vid to everyone else, off to see what else it reveals

reply to post by Sinny

nothing is the canvas for everything!

Bingo.

EDIT: also, I highly suggest you read the thread I linked to.

A principle is a fact and yet it is an "unseen", we can all understand that, but it is still boggling to wonder where that principle came from-- How is it possible that the principle of arithmetic does indeed exist and yet no one can literally find it except through the symbols that represent that fact.

So, if we know there does exist invisible principles that can only be expressed or 'seen' by way of symbols, then this tangible world we see, just might be the tangible evidence of some Invisible Original First Principle .

The universe, whether it is expanding or shrinking, just might have an invisible principle that stands behind it and this visible world is the expression or symbol of that principle.

How do principles come into being? Where do they come from? How do they get exist as fact, as real--- and yet we do not know they are there until we 'perceive' they exist and then we find tangible forms to represent the principle i.e. through numbers or letters.

As I say, arithmetic exists whether we know about it or not; cavemen did not have numbers systems, but when they brought home two deer for dinner, they 'knew' they had made a great catch--- the idea of "plenty and more" was only a concept, they could not say "I have 2 deer for dinner' but the principle of "2' is real and is a fact.

The fact remains absolute in principle and is not changed if I make a mistake in my addition. I have made the mistake, but the correct answer is still is and always the same.

Sinny has brought up a very interesting fact but we do not have yet the knowledge of the symbols to prove the fact. It is a mystery and It is mind boggeling to realize there can be Something that comes from Nothing.

Really the Nothing that all tangible life comes from is the Reality. This tangible world is the 'proof' of the fact that Nothing is very evidently being Something.

The fact is that there is no logic or reasoning to all this, and that makes it boggleing to our limited human view of things to really grasp---

I love the Mystery and the Boggle, it feels very sacred to me---but that's just me. No need to get mean to others for our individual 'takes' on things---- We are all 'right' in that there is no answer ---at least as yet--- and that is a Sweet Boggle too!


[

Thanks for the brain-twist!

Thai said I couldn't divide by zero; but I did: "0/0=1" !!

...or Uncle Al's variant with some added perspective:

(1^y/x^y)(x^y/1^y)
"Something is, and nothing is not"

Originally posted by nakiel
Thanks for the brain-twist!

Thai said I couldn't divide by zero; but I did: "0/0=1" !!

...or Uncle Al's variant with some added perspective:

(1^y/x^y)(x^y/1^y)
"Something is, and nothing is not"

but it's really multiplying 0 by the multiplicative inverse, that is 1/0 which approaches infinity. the multiplicative inverse of infinity (1/infinity) approaches zero, so you are multiplying everything by nothing and it causes a mathematical impossibility and rips apart the space time continuum!!!

reply to post by PurpleChiten


Thats what I like about your posts - your attention to detail. The witty purple bird (aka Sheldon Cooper) strikes again!!

Excellent pic by the way.

Star 4 u

reply to post by Sublimecraft


LOL Thanks!!

Sheldon ROCKS!!

BAZINGA!!

Originally posted by Sinny
I just want to present you with a couple of statements... Food for thought.

Add seven positive 1s, and seven minus 1s... You arrive with the sum of zero... Despite the fact there are *actually* 14 numbers.

Is zero the absence of one "single" thing, or the presence of multiple things?

What is the distinction between matter and empty space? Empty space, cannot be empty space, for it holds the potential for *all* form in the partical world.

All energy is available from empty space.

Form is emptyness, and emptyness is form.

There's no such thing as nothing.

The universe either appeared from *nothing* .. Or has always existed, and has *no beggining*.

FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE TROLLS, THE MIND BOGGLING BIT IS TRYING TO COMPREHEND HOW EVERYTHING IS SPRUNG FROM NOTHING, AND YET THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NOTHING.

I'm sorry, if that don't boggle your mind, you don't have one.

ETA: As the fellow below me cannot read, or does not under stand the difference between the words "boggled" and "blown".. I sharnt try discussing matters of the universe with him.

edit on 23-6-2012 by Sinny because: (no reason given)

Fortunately, since the time of Galileo, human science has moved beyond linguistically influenced confusion and turned to repeatable experimentation. Galileo's era was about the time when philosophy split off from physics. Furthermore modern philosophy and linguistics has also become much more sophisticated and precise semantically, just to get around all sorts of confusions such as in the above.

In a nutshell, the above poster is relying on personal human intuition and reasoning which is extraordinarily influenced by natural language and mental approximations that people make, probably biologically influenced. This leads to pitfalls for the uneducated. BTW, understanding philosophy well is not at all simple or easy.

reply to post by PurpleChiten


Ahh Chiten, I love your posts, and I love Sheldon Cooper

Originally posted by dxdydz
If we are to believe that "energy cannot be created or destroyed" then we must conclude that the universe has always existed.
Boggling yes.

What really intrigues me is let's assume the universe has always existed. Why does it seem to contain a finite amount of energy. As if it has always been here but with a limit.

My brain concludes.

1. The universe has always existed in one form of energy or another.
2. There is actually an infinite amount of energy, we just can't observe it from our local universe.

actually in General Relativity the issue of global energy conservation is not at all clear, and this is relevant for such issues.

math.ucr.edu...

reply to post by Sinny


I just want to add my name to the list of people who also believe (i.e. it is true that ... ) there is no such physical state as prescribed by the concept of nothing.

THE MIND BOGGLING BIT IS TRYING TO COMPREHEND HOW EVERYTHING IS SPRUNG FROM NOTHING, AND YET THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NOTHING.

"Nothing" or No-thing, means just that. No such thing as no-thing. Is that the place (which is a thing) where there are no things?

Man has confused "it"-self with so much doublespeak "it" isn't funny.

Shall I keep it simple and tell you some no-things?

How about...

Love

Wisdom

Patience

Kindness

and their opposite:

Hate

Ignorance

Impatience

Wickedness

None of these are things, and yet they are some of the most important "things" there are.

There is no opposite to gravity, light (wait there admiral... "darkness" is not the opposite of light, just the absence of it.) or space. These are all things that have no opposite and yet all are finite permanent things that are the same anywhere you go.


So is Love

reply to post by Sinny

As to the 2 posters, whos posts were simply to bash mine, feel better?
What you so bitchy about? Not getting laid?

oh...
it seems i've been misunderstood
great men usually are

Meow...

Emptiness

Emptiness is a key concept in Buddhist philosophy, or more precisely, in the ontology of Mahayana Buddhism. The phrase "form is emptiness; emptiness is form" is perhaps the most celebrated paradox associated with Buddhist philosophy. It is the supreme mantra. The expression originates from the Prajna Paramita Hridaya Sutra, commonly known as the Heart Sutra, which contains the philosophical essence of about six hundred scrolls making up the Maha Prajna Paramita. The Heart Sutra is the shortest text in this collection. It belongs to the oldest Mahayana texts and presumably originated in India around the time of Jesus Christ.

www.thebigview.com...
perhaps Kaku-Dono is borrowing from Zen?

the concept of The Void [Emptiness] is not the same as as the as the concept of Zero; the latter is a placeholder,
while the former is the Wellspring of all potential and possibilities.
in RuneWork the Odin [blank] rune means the same

so you're on the fence between the Steady State [Universe has always has existed] and the Fiat Nox [Universe imanentizes Ex Nihilo,out of nowhere/nothing] hypotheses?

CMT=chaos magical theory precedes you by about 20 years

Principia Magica is in three parts. The first part,
Fiat Nox, contains a brief explanation of relativity
and quantum physics and then posits a theory of
cosmogenesis constituting a quantum-based description
of this universe and its origin, which argues
that magic is both a necessary consequence
of the structure of this universe and an essential
component of it.
***
As a corollary. it is worth noting that if the
above quantum-based description is accurate, then the heroic efforts currently being expended on projecting quantum physics into the big bang epoch to forge a Grand Unified Theory based on a
unification of all fundamental particles and forces
during the outrageous conditions supposedly existing
during the initial moments of the big bang are basically futile. In the relativistic model, this universe supposedly began with a stupendous blast of radiation but cooled as it expanded to
become dominated by matter at an average temperature
now recorded at only a couple of degrees above absolute zero. The Christians seem to approve of this fiat lux type beginning. I prefer
to call the cold start of the quantum description fiat nox.
The problem of entropy, the increasing tendency towards thermodynamic equilibrium and general disorder within any system, will probably disappear in any universe corresponding to the
fiat nox description. Entropy is a classical relativistic concept that applies only to events of medium-scale. It does not apply on the subatomic quantum scale, and on the cosmic scale gravitation
appears to possess the virtue of being able to concentrate energy, Thus. while entropy inevitably increases on the medium-scale. and provides a means of relatively dating local events in the
universe. it does not set a linear time frame for the universe which is capable of reversing its effects on the macro-scale.

Peter Carroll, Liber Kaos
www.scribd.com...
so you see, more cogitacion is required as you are only just catching up [but kudos for it being on your own]

The concept of the word "nothing" is also of interest.

In Shakespeare`s play "Much Ado About Nothing" the word "nothing" does not mean nothing as we use it today but instead "no thing" - the thing was the Elizabethan name for the penis and therefore "no thing" referred to the vagina.

"an O-thing" (or "n othing" or "no thing") was Elizabethan slang for "vagina", evidently derived from the pun of a woman having "nothing" between her legs.[15][4] [16]"
en.wikipedia.org...

Once again man`s imagination is trapped by words.

There's a difference between using numbers as a quantity vs. using them as a distance measurement. A 0-point is a quantity of 1 points, but a measurement of 0 (think of a line of length 0).