Prepare To Have Your Mind Boggled

[Originally posted by Sinny]


Add seven positive 1s, and seven minus 1s... You arrive with the sum of zero... Despite the fact there are *actually* 14 numbers.

Is zero the absence of one "single" thing, or the presence of multiple things?

What is the distinction between matter and empty space? Empty space, cannot be empty space, for it holds the potential for *all* form in the partical world.

All energy is available from empty space.

Form is emptyness, and emptyness is form.

There's no such thing as nothing.

The universe either appeared from *nothing* .. Or has always existed, and has *no beggining*.

**************************************************************************************
Zero is a place keeper, the same a [ . ]
You certainly can not prove a negative
"emptiness is form, form is emptiness" .....this is not true just a play on words, for which the English language excels.
"This is a series of words strung together - it has no meaning."









'

K C Kole is excellent reading for this topic, if you really want to know, not just pose questions that make no real sense. Her book "The Hole in the Universe" a top seller, and quite informative.

But try this link, It quickly gets to the 'meat' of the question you pose.

Quantum mechanics......... not for the average anything.......

www.alienscientist.com...

Originally posted by LoonyConservative

Originally posted by Sinny
I just want to present you with a couple of statements... Food for thought.

Add seven positive 1s, and seven minus 1s... You arrive with the sum of zero... Despite the fact there are *actually* 14 numbers.

Is zero the absence of one "single" thing, or the presence of multiple things?

amazing how math works eh? think of a "0" like a black hole.

What is the distinction between matter and empty space? Empty space, cannot be empty space, for it holds the potential for *all* form in the partical world.

still doesn't make it filled with anything to become less..empty

All energy is available from empty space.

how?

Form is emptyness, and emptyness is form.

perhaps..

There's no such thing as nothing.

depends on your perspective

The universe either appeared from *nothing* .. Or has always existed, and has *no beggining*.

everything has a beginning.. otherwise nothing would have a middle or an end.
and as you said there is no such thing as nothing.

If it doesn't have an end, then it can't have a middle.

I don't know about you, but I have no idea how the universe could ever stop existing.

So, nothing is not nothing, because if it came from something, it wasn't always, and hence must have a beginning.

We can't prove a beginning, or fathom an end, so why do we assume there is a middle? The universe is timeless IMO, always was, always will be. The stuff inside it can have a beginning, middle and an end.... but it, itself, cannot.

This is the nature of infinite.

In other words, the being everyone is looking for, the one called "God" he's all around you, everyday... make sense yet? It's because "God" is the universe and we are inside it, hence how he's everywhere and all around all the time, omnipotent, all seeing and knowing. Because everything that exists, exists in it's space.

We weren't made in his image.... we are inside of him. This is the hidden truth that those who are religious can't see. Nothing IS God. We couldn't exist without the universe, the universe has always existed, will always exist, and so we exist because it gives us the space to. No universe, no space, no space, no planets, no planets, no life.

We aren't the first intelligent species, we aren't the first planet. See David Flynn to understand the nature of the past. Aliens do exist, they don't intervene, because last time they did -- they had to reset our planet. Hence the great flood... this is who the bible refers to when it talks about "The Watchers" or "Angels." Man couldn't fathom that he wasn't the only one, so attributed this special advanced god like race as angels, a manifestation of god.

If God exists, why did he make Angels anyway? What was the purpose of them? They supposedly existed before us, yet, their only role is to protect God and us... If God is all knowing and all powerful, why does he need protection?

These are Human Tropes applied to the unknown. The answer is easy, it's just hard for people to comprehend. The universe has always existed and will always exist and is the very being we call god. They can't find the god particle, and won't ever, it's because god is the space in which a particle exists and it exists because the space is there.

The universe is math. 0 is every positive number factored against every negative number for a sum of 0. Zero is not nothing, zero, is everything, it's the sum of every number in existence to infinite.

There is that word again. Infinite. The universe is infinite, Math is infinite, the universe is math, and math is the universe.

Math is the code, the rendered image of the code is the universe. They are one in the same, just different forms.

Math is the understanding of God, this is why Geometry is sacred.

"In fact mathematically Zero and Infinity are very similar, and also exact opposites. The Number Line you were taught in school actually connects at infinity.

I could go on all day talking about nothing, because nothing is a fascinating subject because you are talking about something that doesn't exist! So then how can you be talking about it if it doesn't exist? There are an infinite number of ways to approach the subject of nothing and an infinite number of explanation for what nothing is." -K.C.Kole

The number line does not connect at infinity, it goes infinitely one way, and infinitely the other way. This is factually why there is a second dimension. Zero is not the opposite of infinite, it's just the center point, the point of origin, or what I'd call the genesis number. There is no limit to how long a line can be -- there is no reason to assume it loops back on itself, because if it did, it wouldn't be infinite, it would be a finite circuit with an end point that could be determined by the location in which it connects, which it's doesn't, it's infinite, that's why we call it -- infinite.

She doesn't even understand infinite, so I don't know if I would even bother reading her material.

Quantum mechanics......... not for the average quantum mechanic, it would seem.

reply to post by Sinny


very interesting thought OP.


thanks


0 CAN be a place marker

reply to post by Sinny

OK, a really simple example.

We have two particles, an electron and and anti-electron, or positron. One is -1 and one +1. Bypassing the mechanisms to get them to combine, when they do, the result is mutual annihilation, 0. The particles, electron and positron vanish and appear to become nothing, but two gamma rays are emitted in this process.

So, as a general observation, the combining of matter and antimatter produces mutual annihilation, and both participants vanish (as matter) and their mass becomes energy.

However simple we pretend this to be, in the quirkiness of such a process, there is a requirements for a multi-dimensional resolution in the mathematics to account for all factors concerned. Not easy to imagine. For example, Einstein used a metric tensor with sixteen components (developed with the assistance of Rienmann), that could help describe a distance in 4-dimensional space-time that included the gravitational field. So describing our example here in terms of a simple positive and negative value on a number line does it no justice at all.

Apart from that – is we assume this process is reversible, the following is very believable. Before matter was born, the Universe was filled with energy, a vast and complex electro-magnetic field. The field gets disturbed in some way or other and a big bang results, forcing energy to be converted into matter and anti-matter, manymany -1's and +1's, tra la la la la
… and a bunch of billion years later we end up here on ATS discussing whether 0 is nothing or everything. What a ride.

So in fact, there never was nothing (cool double negative).

But no mystery here. Only mystery I see is …. where is this place that the Universe occupies and is expanding into …?
but that is being explored to some extent in another thread
Where's the end

Originally posted by Sinny
reply to post by Wifibrains

 

As to the 2 posters, whos posts were simply to bash mine, feel better?
What you so bitchy about? Not getting laid?

Just in case you meant me.
If bashing is your definition of showing up your false statements, then yes I bashed you.
I don´t care from who it comes, you simply didn´t understand what he said. Fullstop. Although I heard him myself. I simply disagree with you because you throw things together that are completely different.

Its not that I looked in your profile but the threads you made, that I have seen yet, are mostly unfinished thoughts, thrown at ATS. That´s my perception.

reply to post by Sinny


My cents - i mean sense - twice

Add seven positive 1s, and seven minus 1s... You arrive with the sum of zero... Despite the fact there are *actually* 14 numbers.

There are not "actually" 14 numbers - numbers don't exist - they are labels of values we use to quantify our "observable data"
- and our observable data is limited.

Is zero the absence of one "single" thing, or the presence of multiple things?

Zero is our quantification of equal positive and negatives.

What is the distinction between matter and empty space? Empty space, cannot be empty space, for it holds the potential for *all* form in the partical world.

Potential is the possibility of manifestation and so is not manifested.
Maybe empty space is the way we "observe" distance.

All energy is available from empty space.

Can not be true - its the same as saying no energy is available from non-empty space (or matter) - really?
Perhaps energy is available at an "observable distance" from the matter that created it (if it still "exists").

Form is emptyness, and emptyness is form.

"Form" by definition needs to be filled - in your use it’s an abstraction.

There's no such thing as nothing.

Ok - we're not having this conversation.

The universe either appeared from *nothing* .. Or has always existed, and has *no beggining*.

I pick C.

Originally posted by zilebeliveunknown

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver

Originally posted by jiggerj
Would you mind some light chat on this, because I have to ask: Are there really 14 numbers there? I would say that there either has to be 15 numbers, or just 7. You considered all the negative digits below zero to be numbers, but not the zero. If zero isn't a number, why would any value less than zero qualify as a number? So, either the zero is a number, making it a total of 15 numbers, or every value from zero to -7 isn't a number, making the total of just the 7 positive numbers.

Aha! By the same logic why would any number above zero be considered worthy as a number? Hmmmm?

Because every number above zero represents something: 7 walnuts, 7 beers...
But when you start at zero walnuts you can't go backwards and say that you have one less than zero walnuts, 2 less than zero walnuts, 7 less than zero walnuts. It doesn't work because no matter what negative number you assign to it, you only have zero walnuts.

edit on 6/23/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Yes, but that don't work in accounting. My bank account balance is - 1.778, therefore I have a negative value which need to get leveled, and that value is pretty much real.

edit on 25-6-2012 by zilebeliveunknown because: (no reason given)

Money is the only thing that doesn't count.

reply to post by verschickter


It's my theory that they want attention.

I like what you said about the OP just throwing things together.

This could have been an interesting discussion if it contained a link to the original material and the OP contributed more opinion that "this is mind boggling and if you don't agree you don't have a mind"(paraphrased).

Follow that up with more insults, excuses that it's not their theory and when called out on not having added any value to the discussion in the first post an excuse of "it was late, or I was running late" or whatever excuse they used.
After all that the OP chastizes us for not having a proper civil discussion when they started the whole thing off with insults and even says the insults were on purpose.
I may be a jerk, I may be an intellectual bully, and proud to be a male donkey, but even I try to have civil discourse on ATS.

I find it funny however that after the mods removed her cursing and insults in her last post she hasn't been back.

reply to post by jiggerj


There are things that can have negative figures.
Distance can be negative when reaching a destination.
In cartography and graphing the negative number has value.

It's true that there are more positive integers in the natural world though.
That and most negative values only exist on paper as a means of describing things.

They are still there, and still serve a valuable function.

Originally posted by zilebeliveunknown
reply to post by DARREN1976

 

Dark doesn't exist, it's just that there is no light source for matter to react to.

I know, I know, it's just the absence of light, but hey, nothing wrong with trying to crack a joke eh? but what about the primal dark? before the first stars winked in to existence?

reply to post by DARREN1976


Saying dark doesn't exist is silly.

That's like saying death doesn't exist it's just the absence of life.

The pillars that the Big Bang theory is precariously predicated on are slowly being eroded by fudge factor on top of fudge factor.

Change is happening in how we see the universe.

Eternal, and infinite.

Incomprehensibly complex for us to currently comprehend.

We just have to live with that fact.

I'm not making an anti science argument.

It's just common sense.

idk why but this thread reminds me of a stupid ICP song a buncha people at deathrock.com/board were making fun of.... hahahahahaha



magnets? how do they work?

feel free to flame me... anyone... don't worry modzis ... it's cool...

reply to post by MikhailBakunin


I'm only 30 seconds in but it seems like a modern version of "It's a Miracle" by Queen.
"Every drop of rain that falls the Sahara says it all---It's a miracle"

ICP
"The stars in the sky, the trees the water"(paraphrased because like I said I've only heard 30 seconds of it).

So two questions.
How does a song like this motivate people into a blood thirsty murderous rage?
If the media is to be believed every ICP song drives people to rape and murder.
This song seems so tame(first 30 seconds).

Second question, why breath life to this thread?
Why?

Yep, amazing how math works. Suzy has an apple, take one away, now she has zero.
Amaaaaa--zzzzinggggg!!

Interesting observation while reading this thread : the words are the problem. Zero or 0 doesnt mean a vacuum of being or matter. Nothing is still a "thing". I think we have all been dumbed into thinking certain things that are not true by our inadequate language and concepts that are ridiculous taught to us from infancy. Mathematics IS metaphysics and there is no such thing as "empty space" or " unoccupied position". Words and their unique meaning to each individual always seem to get in the way!

Originally posted by Sinny
The universe either appeared from *nothing* .. Or has always existed, and has *no beggining*.

With the recent completion of the Standard Model we do now know for a fact the Big Bang did occur. That said, while researching what was required for the discovery the Higgs Boson I found out it took the analyzing of an astounding 500 trillion particle collisions. Even to give our present-primitive computer abilities a little slack the odds of the Higgs being created and activating as was necessary exactly .04 seconds after the Big Bang occurred, the odds are probably still around 1:1 trillion

To me this disproves chaos theory. Your correct that there was something before the beginning of our universe, what who knows... but I have an idea for you Sinny sense you seem to just enjoy day dreaming.

Look at how crazy the world has become, how most of us might as well be living sitcoms, how reality seems so unreal and then take into consideration science speculates the Singularity will occur by 2040 at the latest. Well, who the hell is to say it hasn't already happened and were simply living out programmed simulations?

Youre asking a question for something that has already been answered.

We don't know.

You believe in God or you believe in space existing forever.

----

In other words, you believe that Time exists (which must have beginning point , creation so to speak) or you believe that time does not exist but is a fabrication of our understanding the space / world around us.

Nothing very deep about it. It isn't that hard to Fathom.

WOW this is good thread. best thread i've seen in weeks.
Makes me think really hard.
I think a lot like this at times and try to relay and people dont seem to understand.
S&F