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Prepare To Have Your Mind Boggled

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posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:30 PM
reply to post by Aliensun

One, its not an argument, two, they're not my original thoughts, they are physicists, so tell them its all symantics

Same goes @ JiggerJ, I don't know! Lol I'm just repeating what I read, the basic idea hurt my head, but I couldn't possibly understand the boffin stuff behind it.
edit on 23-6-2012 by Sinny because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Sinny
I just want to present you with a couple of statements... Food for thought.

Add seven positive 1s, and seven minus 1s... You arrive with the sum of zero... Despite the fact there are *actually* 14 numbers.

Is zero the absence of one "single" thing, or the presence of multiple things?

What is the distinction between matter and empty space? Empty space, cannot be empty space, for it holds the potential for *all* form in the partical world.

All energy is available from empty space.

Form is emptyness, and emptyness is form.

There's no such thing as nothing.

The universe either appeared from *nothing* .. Or has always existed, and has *no beggining*.


I'm sorry, if that don't boggle your mind, you don't have one.

ETA: As the fellow below me cannot read, or does not under stand the difference between the words "boggled" and "blown".. I sharnt try discussing matters of the universe with him.
edit on 23-6-2012 by Sinny because: (no reason given)

Simple "paradox". Humans are smart enough not to fall into that abyss. Its a simple trap - sorta like fly paper.

Have a nice day. Oh and try a difference between "boggled", "blown", and... "BLOGGED".

posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Sinny

Originally posted by PhoenixOD
reply to post by Sinny

In regard to your first sentence, mathmatics is the universal language, hence sacred geometry etc.

Show me your math and I'll show you a little bit of mine. eg: So now what'ch gonna say? Did I just eat the thread?

posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:38 PM

Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver

Originally posted by jiggerj
Would you mind some light chat on this, because I have to ask: Are there really 14 numbers there? I would say that there either has to be 15 numbers, or just 7. You considered all the negative digits below zero to be numbers, but not the zero. If zero isn't a number, why would any value less than zero qualify as a number? So, either the zero is a number, making it a total of 15 numbers, or every value from zero to -7 isn't a number, making the total of just the 7 positive numbers.

Aha! By the same logic why would any number above zero be considered worthy as a number? Hmmmm?

Because every number above zero represents something: 7 walnuts, 7 beers...
But when you start at zero walnuts you can't go backwards and say that you have one less than zero walnuts, 2 less than zero walnuts, 7 less than zero walnuts. It doesn't work because no matter what negative number you assign to it, you only have zero walnuts.
edit on 6/23/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:40 PM
ther is no time man made time as a mesuare
so the first second was not the first second as the second before it was the first second and therfore all seconds before that second was the first second only if we use the zero second will the next second be the first second oh hang on we now have the zero second, that must be the first second and the first second is the 2nd second
and if the 2nd second is realy the first second then the zero second is the , oh my we are going in circles
this all started with that pesky zero second
whos on first base

posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:45 PM
reply to post by PhoenixOD

You are so right about a " second "!

I was once asked " what happens in a second?" by a close freind of mine not here.

I answered " alot of things happens in a second, millions, billions, trillions of thing twice fold happens in a second."

He then told me " thats true from your existance, perception, and depth of an answer HERE. However, if you lived in that second, and answered from within the laws of that second, then what happend could never be past tense. There is no HAPPENED if an IT could never stop. That second is infinite. And so are you. Attach your mind to your soul which is IT, not to the world and its laws which not to long ago just HAPPENED."

His point to me was mental limitations were put there by myself and every person, and material i have interacted with here. From that i was taught and made to see limitation " laws of physics, and thermodynamics".

But the soul the consious the you of the matter is not restricted to matter.

The understanding was profound to me. Like standing inbetween two mirrors and looking through and into again and again. Sure there is a limitation due to the composition of the glass in clearity and size and distance. Also limitations in how intense my eyes can focus into a sustained point to count the reflections.

However, my consious can see the reduction down to the crystaline atomic structure. Where light nolonger reflects due to the entropies of the environment.

At anyrate.

Awsome thread.

Now, explain to me where perfection is. Yes i said where and not what for a reason.

posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:55 PM
Thanks for the nice thoughts and questions here---

I do understand exactly what the Original Poster is so in Awe about! It is just so marvelous and amazing.

And that no thing can be something---yes! I think you're on to something -- :-)

This whole idea of something coming from nothing and or why numbers are significant and meaningful, all sort of goes together in a big synergistic 'vision' of Life.

Think about the fact that numbers exist because there is an actual and factual and usable and real principle behind them---numbers, written expressions, or ideas are the tangible evidence of 'something' real and absolute called arithmetic. And although arithmetic is real and is a fact--yet we cannot touch or see or taste or own the principle of arithmetic. The principle of arithmetic is everywhere, it is always here, even if we do not know anything about arithmetic, it still exists.

When a principle is real we have no way to see it's reality except by way of the symbols and things that 'stand for' the principle. We can only see a principle and know it exists and is a fact and is real by way of the symbols that represent the principle.

So we know there are facts and realities that exist but only have form in 'things' that represent that 'invisible fact'.

Then, we can think of tangible life, this world of things and form and space and time and people and history and ideas et al--- as symbol or representation of a Fact, or Reality, or Principle, that we could call the First Principle.

We can understand that there is a Principle that exists but we that we cannot see or touch or know as any physical tangible "thing' ----but we can know It by its symbol which is the world of tangible experience.

Life in tangible form is the evidence of a Real Principle that stands behind it.

This world, time, space, things, birth, death, stuff, events going on, is the 'seen' evidence of Living Reality which tells us there is Some Real and Factual Divine Principle. But no one can ever, ever see it, or own or corrupt it, or trap it, or kill it, or deplete it, or control it----Yippeee!

Like numbers, this tangible experience we call life 'comes from' something unknowable and intangible but very very Real. There is an unseen "Real" and I could call it The Life Principle (God, but not the God of limited dogmatic religions) This Unseen Fact that stands behind all this that we see, and know and can use and live.

As if this world is the 'image' (like numbers ) of First Principle that does exist, because we can 'see it' by way of this tangible world.

Is it not said that we are made in the image and likeness of God ---which would be the Unseen Fact of Being---the Divine Principle.

The 'tangible things' of this world, like numbers on a page, come and go; people and things come and go, like numbers, they can be erased, but the Principle is not harmed and does not come and go, It is always Here and always Real.

The Life Principle IS Real and must exist as the "first uncaused cause" or Intangible "nothing" that is for sure a Fact (like the principle of arithmetic is real because we can use the principle in all kinds of ways and it works, even if we cannot see or touch the principle)---

So this world is like the numbers, and the Real and Everlasting that has no beginning and no end and is not a tangible thing--- is the Divine Principle that people 'think of as God'---but, "god' is really Reality Itself as in a Principle that this world is the 'symbol' of. We are like the Divine Equation of a Divine Principle and we are still trying to work the Equation out and get it right---

I know that was a bit redundant, but wanted to be sure I explained well enough--- but it is one of those ideas that one would really need a face to face conversation to explain.

I hope some of you can get the gist of what I am pointing out here --- I think it answers a lot of the 'boggelng' questions.

edit on 23-6-2012 by Sweetmystery because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 11:01 PM
It means nothing.

posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 11:47 PM
I think the biggest question of all is "Why is there anything?". It would be much easier to create nothing than something.

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 01:27 AM
reply to post by Sinny

It's threads like this that make me wish there was some sort of anti flag so I can give the thread a thumbs down.

Your premise is flawed as it is possible to have 0 of something.

There are 0 women in the room in which I am typing this reply, there are also 0 apples, 0 bananas and so on and so forth.

Trying to be philosophical for the sake of being philosophical is well not that philosophical.

As for your preemptive insult to those whose minds you have not boggled... it's rather sad.

Most people at least wait until they are confronted with negative comments before descending into insults.

Not that, that is a valid tactic in the first place.

Any philosopher who has taken logic 101 would tell you that insulting the audience because you were unable to convey your message properly is not only a logical fallacy but a sign of a weak argument.

Your argument should be able to stand on it's own without insults.

Other than saying that your premise is wrong I guess I'm just saying you are an attention seeker.

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 01:54 AM
It is an answer I can give all i can say is this. All that can be proven with math is a Lie, and all that can be proven wrong with math is simply not a valid set. Math gives an illusion of truth by conditional provability. The only truth is God, and the paradox of zero is the only truth given by the Empirical God of the Universe that allows you to know that it's is not really real. Can you guess my name?

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 01:55 AM
We've actually discussed this before on another thread. Having a zero sum is not the same thing as having nothing.

"Nothing" is the absence of all particles.
"Zero" is the balance of all particles

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 03:08 AM
You have not been reading physics lately. Virtual particles can create into matter in a vaccumn what you are saying is actually reality!

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 03:15 AM
Nah, they're just changing from energy to matter and back to energy

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 03:18 AM
reply to post by Sinny

There are forces in the universe beyond our human comprehesion. If we can't comprehend it, then to us it doesnt exist.

Just remember, a hundred yrs ago, we as humanity were "bleeding people" to get the evil spirits out.

Start with comrehending vibration. Its a good place for you to start. Good luck my friend.

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 04:33 AM
theres no such thing as "empty" space. thats just what humans say cause they can't physically see anything it just looks dark. it is anything BUT empty, at ever possible area you look there will be energy (matter) you cant see (humans).

secondly, concerning time. they way us humans perceive time isnt quite how time itself works. we think of it as straight, one direction like an arrow. science hasn't figured out space time yet, we also haven't described it in an awesome metaphor we could understand it in. if your wanna grasp it and f*** with your brain a bit look into torsion's and vortexes. go into google and put like torsion space time sun gravity and read some of it.... but yeah we gotta bend our minds around the fact that sorta like the past , present and future simultaneously... that is my understand of "time"

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 04:50 AM
You are right OP my mind is completely blown... By the fact that this thread made three pages in length.

Mathematics doesn't mix well with word play. No empty space isn't always empty and space itself is a thing.

But whats your point. You have yet to make one other than anyone who doesn't understand your rambling is feeble minded or to ignorant to get it.

So what 7 one and seven negative ones equal zero. there aren't 15 numbers there. There were seven and then the seven were taken away.

And the difference in matter and empty space is the presence of subatomic particles and their binding forces. Empty space does have the potential to contain matter but that's what it has potential. My bank account potentially could contain 1 million dollars but that doesn't mean it shares the form of 1 million dollars with a bank account that actually contains 1 million dollars. Potential is not form. You need to go back to physics and philosophy.

And what the heck does form have to do with it? Form is a Platonic metaphysical concept. And haven't you heard (since you want to bring philosophy into the sci board) Kant killed metaphysics. Why? Because it is nonsense that can't add anything to knowledge.

Also (since you seem to want to talk philosophy) nothing becomes something the moment you call it nothing you have given it a property. And from a philosophical stand point you can not even imagine something with no properties.

The universe has either always existed or sprang from nothing.... Again what is the point? Pre-beginning physics is starting to attempt solve that mystery. And from a philosophers point of view the universe must not have sprung from nothing and must have an origin in order to avoid the ugly problem of infinite regress.

All of this is very basic math physics and philosophy. None of which, I'm afraid, you seem to have a firm grasp of.

If you want to debate the philosophical implications of the term "nothing" there is a board for that, but it sure isn't sci/tech for this nonsense is neither sci nor tech....

I suggest the book Archetypes of Wisdom or anything by Kant followed by watching completely Leonard Susskind's lecture series' available free from Stanford's website.

edit on 24-6-2012 by constantwonder because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-6-2012 by constantwonder because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 05:20 AM
Really simple. YOU are a nothing. Thoughts and ideas are what emanate from you. Get enough "nothings" together and the physical that we all touch begins to coalesce in space that we put there because stuff has to have a place to exist to distinguish it from other stuff.

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 05:21 AM
If we are to believe that "energy cannot be created or destroyed" then we must conclude that the universe has always existed.
Boggling yes.

What really intrigues me is let's assume the universe has always existed. Why does it seem to contain a finite amount of energy. As if it has always been here but with a limit.

My brain concludes.

1. The universe has always existed in one form of energy or another.
2. There is actually an infinite amount of energy, we just can't observe it from our local universe.

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 06:06 AM
Reply to Sinny:
Some people here will always proclaim themselves above all wonderings' regardless youth, age, and their own rote preconditioning notwithstanding.
Sinny it is good to play with concepts, look from many perspectives, you may see in a light no one else has, we silly Terrans' think we are advanced, but look back, the only advances worth note came from people who thought a bit differently.
As to the Zero imponderable, the person to consult would be R. Crumb.
Artist writer Crum started his Zap Comix with a volumn 0.
The next copy was #1., which was also two, and is therefore much more fun to read than to read about.
Caution: Underground Comix from the 60's and early 70's will rot your mind, as Crumb hilariously proclaims in his work...a madman screqaming....stay away!
Devil Girl's BAD for you!
Love from me and Chex
(you'll find him)

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