Time to take the gun from the American public!

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

The point though is that US citizens don't get deported for not breaking US law, that student broke no law in the UK.
That's my point.
Unarmed people get a worse deal than armed ones it seems.

reply to post by SprocketUK

WRONG.

US Citizens CAN be extradited to face trial in other countries, from the US.

en.wikipedia.org...

The UK DOES have a odd treaty with the US, and only the US, which was signed post 9/11, but even that is being questioned in the UK, by the UK government:

rt.com...

That relationship is ONLY with the US, not all other countries.

You just need to accept you're wrong about this.

And that none of this is related to guns, as much as you'd like it to be...

Examples:

US citizen extradited to Bosnia:

The United States extradited a former Bosnian soldier to face charges of war crimes in Bosnia.

Edin Dzeko, now a naturalised US citizen, is accused of taking part in the mass murder of Croatian civilians in the South of Bosnia, in 1993.

www.tamilguardian.com...

OR how about this:

en.wikipedia.org...

A US citizen, stripped of his citizenship, after Israel (falsely?) accused him of being a war criminal..

More on him, here:

www.guardian.co.uk...

Originally posted by Bodaciouschief

Leave it to the guy with a spikes tactical logo for his sig. I can't think of anything to add to this discussion that this man, and Domo, and many others haven't already said for me.That being said. It would not be an easy ordeal for either side,and if the government were to overcome the American citizens,it would come at a great cost. Molon Labe

edit on 4/5/12 by Bodaciouschief because: typo

There is one way they might possibly get it done, but at a great cost - there might not be a viable government to govern afterwards, or many people left in governable shape.

The usual scenario of mass roundups and door to door takedowns will NEVER work, and if they ever try that, they'd best bring their body bags with them. There are not enough militaries on the planet combined to make that scenario work.

They might have a few isolated successes in that scenario, but while they were running the victory lap, the boom would be getting lowered on them.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

I'll try and lay it out more simply for you.
The cases you mentioned involved people going to other countries and breaking their laws.
The ones I mentioned involved people staying in Britain and obeying British law.
An analogy would be a US citizen being extradited to Germany for having a Nazi website or being extradited to the UK for owning a semi auto rifle.

As for whether gun ownership having a bearing on better protection of US citizens, well, the only way to know for sure is ban guns and see...by then of course, it will be too late.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

You don't need 40 guns. No one does. You've just become a collector. That's fine, if the world was full of people that treated guns like artwork, but the high murder rate in America shows that's not the case... America's murder rate is 4x higher than European ones and most of those are committed with guns and most of those guns are hand guns.

20 of those guns are mine, and yep I need all of them. 3 are made for home defense, and the rest are tools for specific hunting situations, they are all used, not hanging on my wall as artwork. And funny, why don't you look where most of the gun crimes happen? *Gasp* they happen in urban environments where there are retarded gun laws! How can that be? Not allowed to have them, but people still have them and use them. Shucks!

If America made hand guns illegal the amount of murders committed with hand guns would drop exponentially for a decade, at least.

Load of crap.....
England

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by SprocketUK

 

You apparently just don't know what's going on in the US. The FBI was recently told they could suspend all laws if they wanted to, in the US, the government can easily spy on all your communication in the US, and search you, no probs, and enter your house, because after the patriot act, getting a no-knock warrant is dead simple.

Haven't been to the States in a while now, I see. "No-knock" warrants aren't as easy to get or as prevalently used as you appear to believe.

If anyine tries to search me without a warrant, it will NOT be "no probs" as you assert. Ditto for entering my house, "no knock" warrant or not - they'd damned well better knock first, and display that warrant from a safe distance, or there are going to be problems aplenty.

In the US I had cops, on two separate occasions, threaten to plant evidence on me, if I didn't agree to let them search my car (as part of routine traffic stops).

That's some pretty hard luck there. Why did you just roll over and put up with it?

And you're just uninformed about the state of the US...

As, it appears, are you. You must have been one of those timid urbanites.

Originally posted by BenReclused
I feel left out! How about the stats I have posted, and that you seem to have ignored.

Here they are again, along with some that I haven't mentioned yet.

Murders per capita:
Australia is ranked number 18 (at 17.007 per 1 million people)
New Zealand is ranked number 29 (at 5.818 per 1 million people)
Ireland is ranked number 30 (at 5.464 per 1 million people)
Spain is ranked number 37 (at 0.781 per 1 million people)
Canada, the United Kingdom, and the United States are not among the top 37.

Assault victims ranked by percentage of population:
The United Kingdom is ranked number 2
Australia and New Zealand are both ranked number 3
Canada is ranked number 5
The United States is ranked at number 9, as are Sweden and Belgium.
Ireland is not among the top 20.

Rapes per capita:
New Zealand is ranked number 2
Ireland is ranked number 10
Canada is ranked number 44
The United Kingdom and the United States are not among the top 50.

See ya,
Milt

]

Hi Ben,

I'm sorry you feel left out.

I put up a few of the recent killings in the OP.
The school killlings are really troubling. A certain number may be killed in these but the number of kids effected by this must be massive. Why are people happy to have their kids grow up in gun culture like this? This is what I am trying to draw your attention to. The negative effects. The amout of family members who end up shooting up their family. Kids who shoot themselves accidentally.

I am not interested in all the stats you can throw at me about list of murders per head of population. Its about much more than this.

I know I cannot change your mind. But your on a site that is supposed to be for people who question everything. Most responders have stated they would die before they would hand over their weapon. Thats a very interesting stance for so many people to take.

I will be honest and say I really cannot understand this stance. Reflecting on it a little I can only guess that a lot of people have this necessity to have a weapon out of fear. I am guessing a lot of people will also not admit to this.

I just think people who own these weapons and are so obssesed at defending their right to own the gun should examine why they have this obssesion. Really deeply examine why you have your gun. Why is it so important to you. Would you feel threatened without it? When did this obssesion start? I know you can tell me whatever sounds cool, but if you do this on your own you can't lie to yourself. If it is something you have out of fear, you need to examine that then. Its something failry easy to do.

If you have nothing to fear, you will not need to own a gun.

People take my post as anti gun....far from it...I seek to explain the dark forces behind the constant media harping on every gun incident that can be exploited and manipulated.
There is an attempt to control people ,to make them fearful so " The Government" can take care of them.
An armed man is a confident man and the states with the largest LEGAL gin ownership are the most independent thinking states.
In the weeks after the Goetz shootings in New York the subways were the safest they had ever been due to fears by thugs that their next victim may be the shooter.hmmmm
Shooting at criminals works... You are already being assaulted.Home invasions fit the same category.Relying on
"The Government" to save you is a dead end path
In so many ways.

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by nenothtu

 

For every one of these types of stories there must be a dozen cases of people being accidentally shot.

Here's some stats from 1999:

In 1999, 3,385 children and youth ages 0-19 years were killed with a gun. This includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional injuries.
This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.
The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:
214 unintentional
1,078 suicides
1,990 homicides
83 for which the intent could not be determined
20 due to legal intervention
Of the total firearms-related deaths:
73 were of children under five years old
416 were children 5-14 years old
2,896 were 15-19 years old

wiki.answers.com...

Read my post closer.

I said, explicitly, that it ain't none of the State's business. I didn't report it, it never showed up in your statistical base. Why report it? It was handled, and none of the State's business. It's pure speculation as to how many times a day it goes that way, and none of those instances are ever reported.

However, as a deterrent, word has gotten out on the street here that I WILL shoot miscreants, and my dog WILL eat them, and as a consequence, I've had surprisingly little trouble from the criminal element since then, considering the neighborhood. What trouble I've had since then has been mostly transients who didn't get the memo. I had one guy call the cops on me for running him off with a gun. That one probably got into the statistical database - the dumbass got himself arrested for attempted B+E by calling the cops on ME for defending my turf.

S'ok, he was probably a lot happier in jail. considering the alternative.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by SprocketUK

 

You apparently just don't know what's going on in the US. The FBI was recently told they could suspend all laws if they wanted to, in the US, the government can easily spy on all your communication in the US, and search you, no probs, and enter your house, because after the patriot act, getting a no-knock warrant is dead simple.

Haven't been to the States in a while now, I see. "No-knock" warrants aren't as easy to get or as prevalently used as you appear to believe.

If anyine tries to search me without a warrant, it will NOT be "no probs" as you assert. Ditto for entering my house, "no knock" warrant or not - they'd damned well better knock first, and display that warrant from a safe distance, or there are going to be problems aplenty.

In the US I had cops, on two separate occasions, threaten to plant evidence on me, if I didn't agree to let them search my car (as part of routine traffic stops).

That's some pretty hard luck there. Why did you just roll over and put up with it?

And you're just uninformed about the state of the US...

As, it appears, are you. You must have been one of those timid urbanites.

Not sure how you were able to determine how prevalent I think no-knock warrants are... they're not that hard to get though, and the statistics back that up...

easy google:

Presenting numbers backed up by incomplete data, Kelly testified before a City Council hearing this month that about 13,000 warrants were issued between January 2001 and May 2003, the vast majority being no-knock.

That's just NYC.

www.villagevoice.com...

So.... That's certainly a lot.

Over a decade ago the Georgia Court of Appeals pointed out that such warrants "simply have become customary ... in drug cases." (The overwhelming majority of all search warrants involve drugs.) Even here in Clarke county, in 1997 (the latest year for which I have statistics), 69 of the 143 search warrants issued (48%) had a no-knock provision

www.law.uga.edu...

I could go on... hundreds and hundreds of no-knock warrants are issued every year.

Why did I "roll over"? What should I have done? Fought the cops? Riiiiight. The cops would simply then plant the evidence on me. Cops in the US are pretty much a law unto themselves. Very few people actually fight the law and win.

And btw the crooked cops I ran into were all in the countryside (which is pretty common). I have lived in the country and the city, town and massive metropolises.

Nice try though.

Originally posted by sgspecial19
reply to post by lacrimaererum

 

You're a disinformation snob, how dare you try and shoot down the constitutional rights of the 2nd amendment right to bear arms? You are definitely not welcome here disinform-agent...

I find it truly amazing that this upsets you so much you feel the need to attack me here in the thread and also take the time to send me a private message to call me a name.

Thanks putting the work in even thought it was in a fairly negative way.

reply to post by lacrimaererum


It's hardly surprising... the gun nuts in America are basically mentally ill. They suffer from paranoid fantasies and persecution complexes.

Murder rate 4x that of European countries? Gun make America safer.
Most murder committed with guns? Better go get more guns.

It's all a delusion.

That guy Wilt repeatedly posted European only stats as "proof" of how much safer the US was than the rest of the world. Even after it was pointed out to him, he kept posting them. That's some massive self-delusion...

Originally posted by lacrimaererum

I will be honest and say I really cannot understand this stance. Reflecting on it a little I can only guess that a lot of people have this necessity to have a weapon out of fear. I am guessing a lot of people will also not admit to this.

You seem to be mistaking prudence and foresight for "fear". I have a fire extinguisher, too. I don't live in fear of house fires, though. I have tools. I don't live in fear of having to repair things.

I just think people who own these weapons and are so obssesed at defending their right to own the gun should examine why they have this obssesion. Really deeply examine why you have your gun. Why is it so important to you. Would you feel threatened without it?

Nope. I can defend myself, my stuff, and my family in myriad ways, so I don't feel "threatened". Guns are tools, and they make that job so much easier, though. You can drop me in the woods buck naked and empty handed at 9 am and I will have meat cooking over a fire by 5 pm. There really isn't much that scares me.

When did this obssesion start?

In my case, never. It's always been with me. I grew up in a rural area, guns all around. Odd that we didn't have kids killing each other off over the latest brand of tennis shoes there. I discovered early on that it's a lot easier to kill a meal with a gun than it is with a sharp stick, although neither is impossible - the gun just makes it easier. That same philosophy carries over into defensive situations now in this godforsaken city. I can and will take out the trash any way I can, but guns just make it so much more convenient when it comes to taking care of the people who depend on me.

They're TOOLS, not self-propelled killing machines.

If you have nothing to fear, you will not need to own a gun.

Or a fire extinguisher, or a wrench, or a TV, or a kitchen knife, or an ink pen, or.... just fill in the blank.

reply to post by nenothtu


Again, this is a delusion.

The number one, by far, murder weapon, in the US, is the hand gun.

It's not even close.

In 1996 there were 32,436 firearm-related deaths. These included:

17,566 firearm-related suicides
13,522 firearm-related homicides
981 unintentional deaths related to firearms.1

More than 70% of homicides are committed with a firearm.2

Firearm assaults on family members and other intimate acquaintances are 12 times more likely to result in death than are assaults using other weapons.3

People living in households in which guns are kept have a risk of suicide that is 5 times greater than people living in households without guns.4

www.netwellness.org...

The following graph compares the homicide rates for males 15 through 24 in America with those in a sample of other developed countries.

Guns are not going anywhere, in fact gun sales are breaking records so much that ammo is very scarse right now. Its like the iPhone, once you own one you never go back.

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious

Not sure how you were able to determine how prevalent I think no-knock warrants are... they're not that hard to get though, and the statistics back that up...

I probably got that impression when you said this:

because after the patriot act, getting a no-knock warrant is dead simple.

I suppose it may have been a mistaken impression spurred by an unclear thought expression.

Presenting numbers backed up by incomplete data, Kelly testified before a City Council hearing this month that about 13,000 warrants were issued between January 2001 and May 2003, the vast majority being no-knock.

That's just NYC.

www.villagevoice.com...

So.... That's certainly a lot.

Government excesses in a disarmed city? Whod've thunk it? You understand your statistics are arguing in FAVOR of retaining guns as a means of keeping government in check, right?

Over a decade ago the Georgia Court of Appeals pointed out that such warrants "simply have become customary ... in drug cases." (The overwhelming majority of all search warrants involve drugs.) Even here in Clarke county, in 1997 (the latest year for which I have statistics), 69 of the 143 search warrants issued (48%) had a no-knock provision

www.law.uga.edu...

I could go on... hundreds and hundreds of no-knock warrants are issued every year.

You realize that 1997 predates the patriot Act, and you are further undermining your argument, right? "Hundred and hundreds"... what happened to the thousands in New York? Did they fall through the cracks or something? Do you have any contacts in the US who have ever even SEEN a "no knock" warrant served, much less been the subject of one? I've seen exactly ONE served, and it turned up nothing - not even a suspect.

Why did I "roll over"? What should I have done? Fought the cops? Riiiiight. The cops would simply then plant the evidence on me. Cops in the US are pretty much a law unto themselves. Very few people actually fight the law and win.

Timid is as timid does. If you won't fight them, you won't spare your family the same indignity further on down the road. You tell them to go ahead and plant their crap if they feel a need to, and they'd damned well better get a warrant out there for the search. You get as many cops as you possibly can around that car before they search it and find the plant. Then you run it through the court and make every one present their evidence and make their case.

They won't be able to, if you do it right. That I promise you.

What you DON'T do is allow them to intimidate you and get away with it. EVER. If they do YOU, they'll do the next guy in line, too, and that might be your son. Or your wife. You jerk those pricks up short, and keep your family safe. Cops don't like dirty cops. I know that from experience.

If YOU are unwilling to keep them honest, just who do you think is going to do it for you? "Gun nuts" like me, that's who, because being an "armed citizen" is more than just possession of an inamimate object, it's an attitude. The catch is, they have to run their game on me before I'll do any damned thing at all. I'm certainly not going to jump into the middle of YOUR mess if you are unwilling to even stand up for yourself!

And btw the crooked cops I ran into were all in the countryside (which is pretty common). I have lived in the country and the city, town and massive metropolises.

All the more reason to not let them just get away with it. My law Enforcement training was in a rural area, and I know how that works, with the nepotism and what not. If you refuse to back down, you can win, and they'll be a lot less likely to try you the second time. You can take that to the bank.

Nice try though.

Likewise.

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious

It's hardly surprising... the gun nuts in America are basically mentally ill. They suffer from paranoid fantasies and persecution complexes.

I'm one of those "gun nuts" in the US, and it wasn't ME who backed down from the scary policeman trying to "plant" stuff on me. It's not ME living in fear of a "no knock" warrant.

paranoid fantasies?

"persecution complexes"?

REALLY? Who? Me, or you?

Ever heard the psychological term "projection"?

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Again, this is a delusion.

The number one, by far, murder weapon, in the US, is the hand gun.

It's not even close.

I take it you would prefer some other method of murder be number one, then, and that will make it all OK?

Yes, I DO see a delusion here somewhere....

reply to post by nenothtu


The ease of acquisition does not equal prevalence. You can blame me for your conflation, but it's a dead end.

As far as NYC being a "disarmed city"... lol...

If you google around you'll find stats hat say that there's as many as 2 million guns in NYC alone.

As far as 97' pre-dating the patriot act, duh. It's been, by all accounts more common since then... if that's what it was in 97 what is it now?

As far as cops needing a warrant to search your car, they don't, they need probable cause, which they will say was the drugs they saw you holding in the car.

Good luck demanding cops get a warrant if they "have" probable cause...

In United States criminal law, probable cause is the standard by which an officer or agent of the law has the grounds to make an arrest, to conduct a personal or property search,

In other words, they don't need a warrant:

en.wikipedia.org...

As far as standing up to the cops, I went to Uni in Ohio (OSU) during that time I was assaulted... I picked the guy out of a line-up, etc., etc., but the charges were dropped because the perp was the mayors son.

Oh well.

It's complete BS to think you can fight corrupt cops, as a citizen, without a lot of money, or a lucky media break.

reply to post by nenothtu


No, the delusion is that all of those murders would've been committed with another weapon.

You still refuse to address the prevalence of handguns in the US and the extremely high murder rate.

Your argument seems to be that there's something wrong with Americans. That Americans are innately more murderous, then say Brits.

My argument is that people are essentially people, but the prevalence of a more deadly weapon (gun vs knife say) will obviously lead to more deaths.

Please, explain why you think Americans are more innately murderous.