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Time to take the gun from the American public!

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posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 08:30 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


No one said it was you, but I wouldn't have threatened those cops with a gun and neither would've you.

As for me projecting, it's only in the States, of western countries, where people feel, in great numbers, that they need guns to be safe. Stats show that isn't true. That makes them both paranoid and delusional. As for the persecution complex, there hasn't been a major push to ever take guns away from Americans, and yet every year there's a huge out cry about the evil government coming to take away people's guns... for no reason. Gun owners feel persecuted, for no reason.

Paranoid, delusional, and suffering from a persecution complex.

America is more dangerous than other western countries without guns.

Deal with it.
edit on 5-4-2012 by captainnotsoobvious because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious

As far as NYC being a "disarmed city"... lol...

If you google around you'll find stats hat say that there's as many as 2 million guns in NYC alone.


Imagine that... that many guns there in SPITE of the laws? You're not doing your argument any favors by continually returning to New York as a sterling example.



As far as 97' pre-dating the patriot act, duh. It's been, by all accounts more common since then... if that's what it was in 97 what is it now?


I don't know what it is now. They're YOUR stats - bring 'em on! Why did you use old stats if you're trying to make a current point? "By all accounts" is hardly a statistical analysis, and I thought that's what you were basing your argument on - statistics. Don't just leave it in the air for guesswork and supposition - bring those stats on! Now you're going to need more stats, comparative between pre-Patriot Act and post Patriot Act, since that's where your argument is going.



As far as cops needing a warrant to search your car, they don't, they need probable cause, which they will say was the drugs they saw you holding in the car.


You're wrong. Just flat out wrong.

That may be in some places (New York, maybe?) but it doesn't fly here. They can consent search your car if you agree to it, and have to get a warrant if you don't consent. they have 30 minutes to get that warrant out there, or you skate.

Ask me how I know, and watch for my tail lights after you ask.



Good luck demanding cops get a warrant if they "have" probable cause...


I had better than "good" luck - I drove away, and there wasn't a damned thing they could do about it.





In United States criminal law, probable cause is the standard by which an officer or agent of the law has the grounds to make an arrest, to conduct a personal or property search,


In other words, they don't need a warrant:

en.wikipedia.org...


There are more nuances to "probable cause" than wiki tells you. Ask a cop.



As far as standing up to the cops, I went to Uni in Ohio (OSU) during that time I was assaulted... I picked the guy out of a line-up, etc., etc., but the charges were dropped because the perp was the mayors son.

Oh well.


"Oh well" implies that you just let it slide after that. Bummer. now he can rough up anyone he pleases. That's on YOUR head.



It's complete BS to think you can fight corrupt cops, as a citizen, without a lot of money, or a lucky media break.


No it isn't. I've lived it. The catch is, you have to know the law, and your rights, and you can NEVER, EVER back down or give up until you are satisfied. which you apparently don't do any of.

It helps to be known by the other cops, but it's not a strict requirement.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by nenothtu
 


No, the delusion is that all of those murders would've been committed with another weapon.

You still refuse to address the prevalence of handguns in the US and the extremely high murder rate.


I also refuse to address the prevalence of machetes in the Congo and the high murder rate. there is a reason for that. Machetes don't just jump up and kill on their own any more than guns do. You are addressing the wrong relationship, trying to blame murders on inanimate objects.



Your argument seems to be that there's something wrong with Americans. That Americans are innately more murderous, then say Brits.


Nah. Brits are a pretty murderous bunch, too. So are Salvadorans, Indonesians, Zimbaweans, Arabs, etc. I can't recall the last time that Americans stomped fans to death at a football game, but there WAS that Walmart Christmas incident....



My argument is that people are essentially people, but the prevalence of a more deadly weapon (gun vs knife say) will obviously lead to more deaths.

Please, explain why you think Americans are more innately murderous.


I dunno. I reckon we're just junkyard dog mean, natural born killers, etc., etc. I wouldn't recommend a visit here if we scare you.

I REALLY wouldn't recommend trying to disarm us if you're all that scared of us.



edit on 2012/4/5 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 09:01 AM
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reply to post by cranspace
 





Being from the UK were not allowed guns but if we were i would not think twice before shooting a burgler-intruder in my house


Bit of a misnomer there mate.....it's perfectly legal to own a range of firearms here in the UK, admittedly it isn't as easy as the US.......but there are plenty of people here who own guns perfectly legally.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 09:03 AM
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Funny to think. Every city that these events are in, except one, have some of the stricts gun laws. Ironic?



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 09:05 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


All I can assume is that you're just making up stuff now:

en.wikipedia.org...



The motor vehicle exception was first established by the United States Supreme Court in 1925, in Carroll v. United States. [1] The motor vehicle exception allows an officer to search a vehicle without a warrant as long as he or she has probable cause to believe that evidence or contraband is located in the vehicle.




Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132 (1925), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which upheld that the warrantless search of an automobile is known as the automobile exception. The case has also been used to increase the scope of warrantless searches.


en.wikipedia.org...

As for probable cause:

www.probablecause.org...

Probable Cause is one of the most abused and hard to defend against legal concepts going... Cops invent probable cause all the time, "car weaving" is a good example...

As far as your basically insane belief that Americans are just more muderous than anyone else, explain why Americans abroad aren't going around killing people... Or why so many foreigners, like illegal immigrants, murder people in the US, and not in say, Canada.

This whole, "somehow a group of people, who's only common denominator is where they live, are intrinsically more murderous" concept your proposing is absolutely ludicrous.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by nenothtu
 


No one said it was you, but I wouldn't have threatened those cops with a gun and neither would've you.


Please don't presume to know what I would and would not do. True, it's not prudent to go up against an armed man in most cases if you are "disarmed", but I'm not always the most prudent person you will find in any particular crowd, I probably wouldn't have, since there are generally far better and more permanent way to deal with that situation, but there are no guarantees. I might have gone off on them like a hand grenade, but it's not likely.

Then again, if I'm NOT disarmed, if they HAVEN'T been able to take my guns, there's an element of surprise for them to take into consideration before going full-on stupid on me, isn't there?



As for me projecting, it's only in the States, of western countries, where people feel, in great numbers, that they need guns to be safe.


Oddly, I live in the States, so I don't much care how other countries coddle their thugs. I don't NEED a gun to be safe, it just makes it more efficient.



Stats show that isn't true. That makes them both paranoid and delusional.


Stats show no such thing. that makes quoting selective stats both paranoid and delusional - ESPECIALLY by one who doesn't even live here.



As for the persecution complex, there hasn't been a major push to ever take guns away from Americans, and yet every year there's a huge out cry about the evil government coming to take away people's guns... for no reason. Gun owners feel persecuted, for no reason.


of course there has been that major push, in 1994. They tried, they failed, case closed... for now. If they tried once, what makes you think they won't try again?



America is more dangerous than other western countries without guns.

Deal with it.


Again, I must recommend against coming for a visit if we scare you so much. I'm not sure you have the fiber to go up against the average American granny, and they're pretty notorious for being irascible. Most of the rest of us are willing to leave you alone as long as you're not trying to kick our door in.

Deal with it.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by Argyll
reply to post by cranspace
 





Being from the UK were not allowed guns but if we were i would not think twice before shooting a burgler-intruder in my house


Bit of a misnomer there mate.....it's perfectly legal to own a range of firearms here in the UK, admittedly it isn't as easy as the US.......but there are plenty of people here who own guns perfectly legally.


I'lll admit that I'm not very well versed in UK gun laws, since they don't affect me, but don't you have to keep licensed firearms at a licensed "gun club" or the like for storage, so that you can keep your burglars all safe and secure?

I recall some problems with purchase of even AIR RIFLES, BB guns, somewhere. I thought that was the UK, but it might have been Australia.

What are your laws there? I'm not being facetious, I'm really looking to get educated in the matter.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


No you don't have to keep certain guns at a shooting club, but you usually have to be a member of a shooting club to own certain types of firearms (mainly hand guns).

In no way are firearms as accessible here in the UK as they are in the US, but as I said earlier, a lot of people assume that all firearms are illegal here, when in fact they are not.

the UK firearm laws can be seen HERE



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by nenothtu
 


All I can assume is that you're just making up stuff now:



Doesn't matter what you believe based on wikipedia - I know what ha s worked for me. You really need to check Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132 (1925) more closely before using it to support your argument. I'll give you time to do that before further comment.

What I can tell you for sure is that I left a State SBI Agent and a local Deputy working together in my rear view mirror because they couldn't get a warrant out there into the middle of nowhere fast enough. I dealt with them later, I surely did, and we parted amicably. The SBI agent even mailed back some papers I had lent him in the case, for his education. he was an honorable man.

Warrantless searches have very specific parameters that must be met.



As for probable cause:

www.probablecause.org...

Probable Cause is one of the most abused and hard to defend against legal concepts going... Cops invent probable cause all the time, "car weaving" is a good example...


"Car weaving" gives probable cause for a traffic stop, NOT a warrantless search. In order to perform a warrantless search, the bar has to be raised AFTER the traffic stop. have one try to plant something on me to obtain probable cause. Go ahead, just give it a go. See how that turns out.



As far as your basically insane belief that Americans are just more muderous than anyone else, explain why Americans abroad aren't going around killing people... Or why so many foreigners, like illegal immigrants, murder people in the US, and not in say, Canada.


that's not my belief, it was sarcasm, playing off of your insinuations. I guess I should have used a /sarcasm switch. of course we're not inherently meaner... well, maybe slightly, but no so much as you would notice. There are "bad men" found in every country. We are not immune, and how you deal with your "bad men" over there is up to you.

We've got our own recourse.

BTW - the ONLY times I've ever gone abroad were specifically TO kill people and tear things up. I dunno why any of the rest do it, or what they do when they're there.



This whole, "somehow a group of people, who's only common denominator is where they live, are intrinsically more murderous" concept your proposing is absolutely ludicrous.


Of course it is - but you've got to admit that we've had more recent experience than a lot of folks. A good rule of thumb is to leave us be and not give us an excuse to go all postal on folks.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by Argyll
reply to post by nenothtu
 


No you don't have to keep certain guns at a shooting club, but you usually have to be a member of a shooting club to own certain types of firearms (mainly hand guns).

In no way are firearms as accessible here in the UK as they are in the US, but as I said earlier, a lot of people assume that all firearms are illegal here, when in fact they are not.

the UK firearm laws can be seen HERE


Thank you for that. there's nothing quite like having someone on the ground living it to set the record straight with the "view from the trenches". I once had to explain to a fellow here that the reason so many "foreigners" (to the US) see things so differently than folks do here is mainly because they LIVE in it, because they aren't "foreigners" THERE. I still subscribe to that notion, and so I thank you for your information.

I will read through the link and educate myself in the matter.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by Argyll

the UK firearm laws can be seen HERE


Wow. Those a re pretty restrictive from an American perspective, but they neither prohibit possession nor require offsite storage, so I'm satisfied that the British people are in possession of the means to "up-arm" if they ever feel a need to.

One thing I know about Brits is that they have the nerve and the resolve to use whatever is at hand and do what has to be done if they ever find themselves in that situation.

It wasn't very clear on pepper spray - it was mentioned, but not being a firearm, it didn't go into detail. It appeared to classify pepper spray right up there with machine guns and rocket launchers. To each his own - I know which I'd rather be shot with, and from my perspective there is a world of difference.

Thanks again for the link!



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


"Car weaving" is absolutely used as probable cause for searching cars, all the time. To be clear, cops will, based on seeing you drive erratically, search your car. They will invent any excuse to do so. e.g. they saw you throw something out a window. IF a cop wants to search you, he will. I know you're mr tough guy and would probably just shoot any cop that you disagree with, but most people aren't.

As for your sarcasm, I assume you basically are admitting you have no idea why the US murder rate is 4x that of other western countries? Yes?

No idea?

And the prevalence of hand guns, something no other western country has, is just a coincidence, even though hand guns are the most common murder weapon...?

If the murder rate was a little higher, maybe, but four times higher... no... coincidence is pretty hard to believe.
edit on 5-4-2012 by captainnotsoobvious because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


And there you go

They don't feel the need. Americans do.

Guns don't make Americans safer though, do they? The murderer rate shows that.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
I know you're mr tough guy and would probably just shoot any cop that you disagree with

objection.
reckless and inflammatory.



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by Christie
 


GO back and read what he said, I'd say I'm simply paraphrasing...



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by Christie
 


GO back and read what he said, I'd say I'm simply paraphrasing...


you mean this?


Originally posted by nenothtu
BTW - the ONLY times I've ever gone abroad were specifically TO kill people and tear things up. I dunno why any of the rest do it, or what they do when they're there.


that's either a vulgar sense of humour, a cry for help, or your conclusion was correct.
but why repay evil with evil?

nenothtu: since you made the remark, would you clarify what you meant by it?



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Again, this is demonstrably not true.

In the part of the world I live in guns, due to restrictions, are not that common amongst criminals.

That's another one of those made in America myths... that in a country with gun control any criminal can have one, and often do, and the average Joe can't protect himself.

Not true.



Oh yeah, I'm 57 and haven't done illegal drugs since I was a teen. And yet, I could buy coke, crack, or pot in five minutes. There are drug-sniffing dogs, and the drugs still keep pouring in. So tell me, how can you make a dog smell metal? Does gun metal have a different scent? I don't think so.

Though it is a terrible tragedy to be killed by a gun, how many millions of guns are out there that haven't killed anyone? I'm willing to bet more people are killed by drunk drivers (and just plain stupid drivers), a LOT more. Are we going to outlaw cars?

So, in a land of no guns, if you really wanted to kill someone, what would you do? It isn't in me to do such a thing, but I'd build a bomb. Unfortunately, that would mean ten people might get killed instead of one. How about sneaking up and cutting the brakes on the family car?

Point is, if criminals want someone dead, they don't need guns.

Guns are not the problem.
edit on 4/5/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
It's not ME living in fear of a "no knock" warrant.



Well, I have something for you to fear. From Wikki: In 2005 there were 10,100 homicides committed using firearms. Also in that same year there were 43,443 motor vehicle deaths.

We need to get the cars off the road!

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...


300,000 a year die from obesity related illness. We need to point our guns at the fat people, and yell, "PUT DOWN THAT CUPCAKE!" People should have no right to purchase a deadly box of jelly-filled doughnuts. I'll shut up now.

Read more: wiki.answers.com...



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by nenothtu
 


"Car weaving" is absolutely used as probable cause for searching cars, all the time. To be clear, cops will, based on seeing you drive erratically, search your car. They will invent any excuse to do so. e.g. they saw you throw something out a window. IF a cop wants to search you, he will. I know you're mr tough guy and would probably just shoot any cop that you disagree with, but most people aren't.



Baloney. That's called a "consent search". You consent to it, because they haven't got the probable cause for a search. If you don't consent, and they have neither a warrant nor probable cause, guess who wins when you sue the ass off of them? Throwing something OUT of the window is not probable cause for searching IN the car.

Throwing something out the window and then having an empty baggy in your lap when they come up to the window MIGHT be, but I wouldn't bet my badge on it if I were them.

That's why they ask "Is it OK if I search your car? It's just for my own safety..." blah, blah, blah. All you do is say "No, it's not OK until you have a warrant." Oh, they'll threaten to bring dogs and all sorts of things, but you stand your ground, and get some witnesses out there if possible. There's lots of ways they'll try to trick you into it - but it's on YOU if you fall for it and give consent.

A bit over the top to accuse me of being ready to shoot a cop because of a "disagreement", but I'm guessing that's because you've got nothing but hyperbole to run on at this point.



I assume you basically are admitting you have no idea why the US murder rate is 4x that of other western countries? Yes?

No idea?


4X? REALLY? Are we that much more violent than you folks across the pond? By "murder rate" I presume you mean per capita - not raw numbers, am I right? Or do you mean some other "rate"? How are you defining "murder"? I'm going to need more info as to sources and methodology before I can give a logical answer.



And the prevalence of hand guns, something no other western country has, is just a coincidence, even though hand guns are the most common murder weapon...?

If the murder rate was a little higher, maybe, but four times higher... no... coincidence is pretty hard to believe.


Yup, coincidence. I can't help what you read into the tea leaves, or find "hard to believe", but believe this: you will NEVER, EVER, see one of those mean old handguns jump up and shoot someone of it's own accord, I don't care how many years you sit and stare at it. It will just lay there until some murderous soul decides to commit a murder with it.

It will ALSO just lay there until some virtuous soul decides to pick it up and defend himself FROM a murderer with it.

Of course, if you outlaw them, my 90 pound daughter can just go bat to bat with the next murderous 200 pound brute that rolls along with mayhem on his mind. She might come out OK... whaddaya think?

I think a double tap center punch beats a Louisville slugger any day of the week.




edit on 2012/4/5 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)




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