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Christian doctrines vs scripture

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posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

And please, this is simply philosophy. Anything Eternal is therefore by definition timeless.

Can you quote some ancient philosophical work which says something like this?

P.s. I did come to what I believe on my own through prayer for understanding and studying. All you're offending is the air, not me
This seems to contradict your earlier statement that you came to this conclusion through studying philosophy.

. . . I well provided ample and adequate scripture in refutation of your faulty premises . . .
Are you saying that any refutation you are going to give, you already gave?

. . . Our Father told us He would never leave us or forsake us if we would but draw nigh unto Him. Christ is the way, the truth, and life. Jesus is my Lord and I joy in God for him. . .
OK, so where in all of that does it give an exemption from the verses that say all will have to go through a judgment?
The fact that you believe that you will receive a positive verdict does not nullify the reality of a judgment.
edit on 12-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

And please, this is simply philosophy. Anything Eternal is therefore by definition timeless.

Can you quote some ancient philosophical work which says something like this?


Impossible, it wasn't discovered until 1916.

Einsteins General Theory of Relativity (E=mc^2)

Confirmed 14 different ways by Physicists down to 19 decimal places.

Or in layman's terms, "FACT".


edit on 12-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



We will stand before the Great White throne (in reve after the thousand year reign) but not in condemnation.


No, Christians are not at that judgment, we have to appear before the Judgment (bhema) Seat of Christ. GWTJ is a judgment that if you're at you're going to Hell. It's a sentencing for the "dead", that's why those judged there are judged by their works.

The Bhema seat is in heaven immediately prior to the marriage supper, and the 2nd coming.


If the book of life is opened at that time plus other books then I can see how one, Dewey to be exact, could argue that those written in the book of life will be there along with those who are judged by their works out of the other books. I can also imagine that the book of life could be opened in essence just to prove those names which are not therein written whereas we would not be present.

Either way it is of no consequence to me b/c judgment does mean condemnation and my earnest hope and faith is to stand before Christ covered in his blood. I believe 2 Corinthians 5, also which I think you are talking about. I'm trying to reach Dewey where he is at instead of confusing him further with disagreements over semantics.

I don't entirely disagree with what your post, NuT.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



He speaks of the day the "virgins" are called out and only five wise have filled their lamps with oil (the holy spirit) whereas the others miss the Groom's return because they are out trying to find oil for their lamps in that midnight hour.


All Christians have the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible to be convicted if not.


I don't disagree. But to what measure and how rooted one's faith is and for what many hope for I do question. There are many Christians who don't want Jesus to come back just yet because they love this life.



Secondly, we don't fill ourselves with the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ does. Oil is referred to as those who are looking for Him to return, the unwise virgins are not, that's why they don't have oil, light on, and awake looking for Him.

Actually in the parable they do awaken and have oil to light their lamp but have no extra crux of oil wherewith to continue watching throughout the night. Oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit (atmu) and not all have faith unto watching and waiting for the return of Christ. Go out and ask some Christians what they hope for? Do they want Jesus to come sooner than later. You may be surprised. Nevertheless, many will be caught unaware.


It signifies them napping when He comes, not alert and ready to leave. They don't think He is coming at that hour. But both the unwise and the wise are called "virgins" so they are saved, some are waiting, some are not.

The napping is signified in Peter in Gethsemane, but in the parable of the 10 virgins the 5 unwise are gone to buy for themselves more oil when the Groom shows up.There are many who come out of great tribulation. I didn't say the unwise weren't saved or weren't going to be saved but the Harpazo is special gift for those who hold tight to that which they have until his coming (Thyatira reference).



Some Christians are waiting expectantly for His return, some are not. There is also a crown to be given for those who are taken and waiting.


I don't care about a crown. And as I explained before, I agree that some are not waiting expectantly.
edit on 12-4-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



There are many Christians who don't want Jesus to come back just yet because they love this life.


And is there a problem with loving life? We suck if we aren't looking forward to it ending? Some of us have a lot of joy and plenty to live for.
Carpe diem.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

Dewey, the people in this scripture are boasting of themselves about their works to Jesus . . .

Again, none of this has to do with why I was quoting this from Mathew 7. I was saying that people presenting themselves as Christians and saying the name, Jesus, can and will be working to subvert Christianity my teaching against righteousness. This is why the passage starts out by saying, ". . . only the one who does the will of my Father . . ."


Is it not your claim that in the name of Christ I subvert the truth accusing me of beliefs I do not hold? Wherein have I spoken evil of righteousness; because I believe in Harpazo, or that by grace I am saved through faith, or that I will stand before the mercy seat of Christ and not the Great white throne of judgment, or that both letters to the Thess is legitimate for teaching and edification, or that I shall be saved if I confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead?

Is it not you who denies righteousness subverting scripture according to your own understanding and the inordinate generalities of "scholars," judging God to be unrighteous in His judgment and Christ to be no more than just another prophet?



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



If the book of life is opened at that time plus other books then I can see how one, Dewey to be exact, could argue that those written in the book of life will be there along with those who are judged by their works out of the other books.


Occam's razor:

The book of life is opened to show them their names are not in it.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

And please, this is simply philosophy. Anything Eternal is therefore by definition timeless.

Can you quote some ancient philosophical work which says something like this?


Take a college class and discuss it with the "scholar" leading the class. Or perhaps you can explain according to your own understanding how "Eternity" is bound by "time."




P.s. I did come to what I believe on my own through prayer for understanding and studying. All you're offending is the air, not me
This seems to contradict your earlier statement that you came to this conclusion through studying philosophy.


Quote me saying I came to my conclusions by studying philosophy.

I came to my own understanding of the truth in scripture by studying scripture and even throughout the philosophy, logic, ethics, and a load of sciences in college unto a Bachelors degree in Science, my faith remains in tact. Accept it or don't, but it's the truth.





. . . I well provided ample and adequate scripture in refutation of your faulty premises . . .
Are you saying that any refutation you are going to give, you already gave?

Not necessarily, when discussing how we know the Spirit of God did I not find 1 John chapter 4 for you?
When we contended about the Trinity and it's scripturality, is there not ! John 5:7?
About the coming of Christ? James 5:8, 1 Peter 1:7, 1 Peter 1:13?

When you discounted Paul did I not refer you to James, Peter, and John? then you discount John as I presume you also shall of James and Peter? Is this not the heart of subversion, denying the message before you eyes?

Did you read any of them as my premises for belief before you discounted what I said for the generalities of self-proclaim scholars and one-verse interpretations?

Deny ignorance, Dewey.



. . . Our Father told us He would never leave us or forsake us if we would but draw nigh unto Him. Christ is the way, the truth, and life. Jesus is my Lord and I joy in God for him. . .
OK, so where in all of that does it give an exemption from the verses that say all will have to go through a judgment?


Can you quote me the verse(s) of which you speak?



The fact that you believe that you will receive a positive verdict does not nullify the reality of a judgment.
edit on 12-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


There is no fear in Love. God's grace and mercy and love in Jesus Christ does in fact remove and nullify condemnation for Jesus blood has covered our sins that we might appear before our Father spotless and blameless and at peace with Him. If I am to be judged at peace with the Father in the name of Christ Jesus then I am no more concerned about being Judged and may live this life in love without fear of what those who can kill my flesh may do to me because I am at peace with the one who can kill my soul.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



Actually in the parable they do awaken and have oil to light their lamp but have no extra crux of oil wherewith to continue watching throughout the night. Oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit (atmu) and not all have faith unto watching and waiting for the return of Christ. Go out and ask some Christians what they hope for? Do they want Jesus to come sooner than later. You may be surprised. Nevertheless, many will be caught unaware.


Yes, it is symbolic of the Holy Spirit, but not in all cases. The context here is they are not prepared to leave like the other VIRGINS are. They didn't expect Him to return for them that night.

Both groups are "virgins", that should be the hint.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



I don't care about a crown.


I would if I were you, they aren't for us, but for Him, to give back to Him in praise.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



There are many Christians who don't want Jesus to come back just yet because they love this life.


And is there a problem with loving life? We suck if we aren't looking forward to it ending? Some of us have a lot of joy and plenty to live for.
Carpe diem.


John 12:25-26 "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour."

Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

The understanding is that there are more important things than the lust of the flesh and the vanity of materialism that so easily entangles our minds and hearts. The irony is that (at least in America) the #1 killer is heart disease.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 



And is there a problem with loving life?


Context dear, he meant they love this life more than being with Christ when He comes for His bride.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



Actually in the parable they do awaken and have oil to light their lamp but have no extra crux of oil wherewith to continue watching throughout the night. Oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit (atmu) and not all have faith unto watching and waiting for the return of Christ. Go out and ask some Christians what they hope for? Do they want Jesus to come sooner than later. You may be surprised. Nevertheless, many will be caught unaware.


Yes, it is symbolic of the Holy Spirit, but not in all cases. The context here is they are not prepared to leave like the other VIRGINS are. They didn't expect Him to return for them that night.

Both groups are "virgins", that should be the hint.


I don't understand what your contention is. The harpazo isn't the culmination of everyone who will eventually be saved; nor is the harpazo the culmination of all those who have ever possessed the holy spirit. It's a special gift for those who actually want it enough to believe in scripture and watch. Again, what is your contention with me?



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



I don't care about a crown.


I would if I were you, they aren't for us, but for Him, to give back to Him in praise.


His presence is all I want.

If he gives me a crown, that is up to him because yes, I would only give it back. Glory isn't mine and I don't feel a need for it. Getting a crown pales in comparison to just being with him.

If your focus is a crown then good for you, but it is not necessary or sufficient for my heart's desire.
edit on 12-4-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



His presence is all I want.


Yeah, me too. We'll be in heaven, constantly in His presence. Crowns are rewarded for faithfulness, and they are our gift back to Him. They aren't for us, they won't be sitting on the mantle in our mansion so we can look at them every morning over hot heavenly coffee.

The crowns are for us to throw at His feet in praise. Wouldn't you be pissed if your hands were tied and you couldn't shout for praise in worship service at church??

(Oooops, you might be a Presbyterian or a Baptists and that already happens by church tradition of the elders, if so forget the last question. They refuse to teach their laity about the 7 types of Davidic praise and worship.)


If your focus is a crown then good for you.


EDIT: WOW!!! I NEVER, I repeat, I NEVER said my focus was a crown, I was concerned you "didn't care" whatsoever.


edit on 12-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

You have your panties in a jihad about semantics, Dewey. We will stand before the Great White throne (in reve after the thousand year reign) but not in condemnation. That's all I know to tell you.
It's not just semantics.
What you are claiming is the refutation of the clear teaching of the Bible that everyone will be judged, in favor of a teaching from a cult telling you what you do in this life is of no concern because all you need to do is call on Jesus.
This theory is refuted by Jesus in Mathew 7 where many will be claiming that but will be turned away because the only people who will be allowed to enter the kingdom is those who do the will of the Father. That is further defined when he says to the lawless person to begone.
You deflect it by saying that the person is claiming his own works. What he was claiming was calling on his name, while the righteousness required to have in order to enter had been neglected, thinking that a relationship with Jesus was all that was needed.

. . . The Church in Thyatira is given rulership over the nations. Elsewhere God says He will no more pass over Israel. Only 144,000 out of the tribes are even chosen for a particular scenario . . .
Just looks like you are tumbling things together. Where did you get this formula for your potion? Someone has to be feeding this to you. If you came up with this on your own, then can you explain the process you went through to arrive at this?
Whether you acknowledge Darby as your source, this is the person from whom this philosophy comes.

False. He speaks of His return as quick like lightning that shines from east to west. He speaks of the day when two will be standing in the field and then one will be gone. He speaks of the day the "virgins" are called out and only five wise have filled their lamps with oil (the holy spirit) whereas the others miss the Groom's return because they are out trying to find oil for their lamps in that midnight hour. He speaks of the day he returns with his angels, sending them out to gather together those who belong to him.
Which are all past, historical events.

Believe what your cult leader tells you , I'll trust in Christ, the Word of God unto faith, hope, and unfeigned love.
I read people who are not cult members. If someone has a particular philosophy they promote on an all-or-nothing basis, that is a cult.
edit on 12-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



Actually in the parable they do awaken and have oil to light their lamp but have no extra crux of oil wherewith to continue watching throughout the night. Oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit (atmu) and not all have faith unto watching and waiting for the return of Christ. Go out and ask some Christians what they hope for? Do they want Jesus to come sooner than later. You may be surprised. Nevertheless, many will be caught unaware.


Yes, it is symbolic of the Holy Spirit, but not in all cases. The context here is they are not prepared to leave like the other VIRGINS are. They didn't expect Him to return for them that night.

Both groups are "virgins", that should be the hint.


I don't understand what your contention is. The harpazo isn't the culmination of everyone who will eventually be saved; nor is the harpazo the culmination of all those who have ever possessed the holy spirit. It's a special gift for those who actually want it enough to believe in scripture and watch. Again, what is your contention with me?


We agree with all that. It was your implication that those who didn't have the "oil" didn't have the Holy Spirit. Did I read that wrong? Not all usages of the term "oil" means Holy Spirit, the lesson here is some are looking and watching and waiting expectantly, some are not.

Both groups are justified and have the Holy Spirit. Check out Peter's speech in Acts 15. The Holy Spirit is the evidence of salvation.


edit on 12-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



What he was claiming was calling on his name, while the righteousness required to have in order to enter had been neglected, thinking that a relationship with Jesus was all that was needed.


When Jesus says: "Depart from me, I never "knew" you. It is the root Greek word "Gnosis", it implies a "deep intimate knowledge of."

The same word Mary uses when she says: I have never "known" a man.

Works don't save, a personal relationship does. And the closer one gets to Christ the more we detest sin in all areas of our life.


edit on 12-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



His presence is all I want.


Yeah, me too. We'll be in heaven, constantly in His presence. Crowns are rewarded for faithfulness, and they are our gift back to Him. They aren't for us, they won't be sitting on the mantle in our mansion so we can look at them every morning over hot heavenly coffee.


mmmm, hot heavenly coffee made with living water



The crowns are for us to throw at His feet in praise. Wouldn't you be pissed if your hands were tied and you couldn't shout for praise in worship service at church??

(Oooops, you might be a Presbyterian or a Baptists and that already happens by church tradition of the elders, if so forget the last question. They refuse to teach their laity about the 7 types of Davidic praise and worship.)


edit on 12-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)


No offence taken. The Lord values the meek, quiet spirit of worship as much as he adores hands lifted high and joyful noises. Even still, when we know not for what we should pray as we ought, the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Oh yeah, tie my hands and i'll sing. Cut out my tongue and I'll hum. Cut my throat and I'll be with the Lord.
It's all a win/win situation like Paul says in Romans 14.

edit on 12-4-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: oh yeah



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

And please, this is simply philosophy. Anything Eternal is therefore by definition timeless.

Can you quote some ancient philosophical work which says something like this?


Impossible, it wasn't discovered until 1916.

Einsteins General Theory of Relativity (E=mc^2)

Confirmed 14 different ways by Physicists down to 19 decimal places.

Or in layman's terms, "FACT".



JM, Address this. ^^^

It's impossible for there to be "ancient philosophical works" for a discovery made in 1916.

Einstein discovered the nature of time, it's a physical domain/property. It's the 4th dimension, we don't live in 3, we live in 4 physical dimensions.

Google the two astronauts example from Quantum Physics, it's a practical example in every modern Physics textbook explaining the concept of "Gravitational Time Dilation".


edit on 12-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



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