It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
This is only evidence of a severe form of self delusion, and illustrates further my earlier point, which is that you redefine terms to suite your preexisting belief.
Condemnation IS a possible consequence of judgment. If one of the possible consequences is promised to never happen to us that make our doctrine fairly simple to understand.
2 - 1 = 1
Kindergarteners can grasp that mathematical equation.
If one of the two possible consequences of that judgment are promised to never happen to us, then the purpose of our judgment must have other implications, because we read that we are to be judged by Christ. And those implications are given in 1 Corinthians chapter 3.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
Condemnation IS a possible consequence of judgment. If one of the possible consequences is promised to never happen to us that make our doctrine fairly simple to understand.
2 - 1 = 1
Kindergarteners can grasp that mathematical equation.
If one of the two possible consequences of that judgment are promised to never happen to us, then the purpose of our judgment must have other implications, because we read that we are to be judged by Christ. And those implications are given in 1 Corinthians chapter 3.
This is only evidence of a severe form of self delusion, and illustrates further my earlier point, which is that you redefine terms to suite your preexisting belief.
In a judgement in a criminal court, you can be found, as a result of a trial, one of two things, innocent or guilty.
Or in other words, condemned or exonerated, or in Christian terminology, justified.
If you do not go to judgment, then you can not be justified either.
Well then, how is it determined that you are "in Christ"?
The Word of God says "Therefore there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus." That removes one of the two choices . . .
That is actually an OT quote that Paul is giving to illustrate a point.
If we are "justified" on judgment day then explain how can the Bible declare people are "just" while they are on Earth then? Do you want examples?
"The JUST shall live by faith."
Right, but the emphases is on the concept of lawlessness, which is the literal meaning of the word here translated as worker of iniquity. The emphasis is not so much on the "never knew you", which is a way to describe how the person is not a true disciple of Jesus, but someone who merely makes use of the name, Jesus. It is talking about discipleship.
Doesn't Jesus say, "Depart from me ye that work iniquity for I never knew you"?
The person was not attempting to go through a "back door".
Many people will try to get in through the back door who think their works are going to save them . . .
Yes there is.
13:8 KJV states plainly that all those in the world whose names are not written in Jesus book of Life will worship the beast. Is this confusing?
3:5 is the letter to the church in Sardis in warning telling them to repent and watch lest he come like a thief and they be not ready. Coincidentally, the church just before is told to hold on to that they have until he comes. both reference his coming and also reference scripture elsewhere where Jesus is telling us that He is coming like a thief in the night but we are not of the darkness and will not have us be overtaken as though we were.
Is there something else you want me to explain about these verses?
Just because someone calls them self John does not mean I somehow need to respect as the word of God whatever they write. Someone told you that you should, ans so just blindly believe it. It is not something you came to on your own.
If God is God then He is not bound by time for He is, was, and always will be. This is just plain old philosophy. Your disdain for John is amusing.
This fits right in with the last thing. You are only assuming that "time and moment" is a creation of God, so you use that as a given, to support your argument that "creation" is not undone, even though the habitable earth (which is a creation of God) is un-created. (of course, according to your interpretation, and not mine, which is: this is not a reliable prediction of actual events that "must" soon come about, since "soon" is already up, and maybe why you have to throw in the bit about time being irrelevant, which begs the question, why does it say that, then)
Creation does not cease. Time and moment continues on.
You obviously do not read any in-depth literature on Revelation, otherwise everything I am saying about it would be very familiar to you.
You obviously don't study Revelation.
Is it really Christ saying that, or is it your cult leader?
You have said all will be judged. Christ says differently. And I choose Christ.
There would (even if this is an accurate assessment of the Gospel message) still be a hearing where Jesus steps forward to claim you as one of his own, since it is obviously not based on your own claim that you are. But what you are saying is that you somehow get a pass from even having to show up, even though there is no mention of such a thing in the Bible, so I must take it as another teaching by your cult leader, and not something you came up with from just sitting down with your Bible.
Let me try it this way, to be judged in Christ is to be judged righteous without sin, to be judged apart form Christ there is only condemnation. Does this work for you?
Darby invented Dispensationalism. Maybe you do not belong to the mainstream of that larger cult, but belong to an off-shoot, smaller cult which only accepts part of the beliefs. According to Dispensationalism, Jerusalem is the sole property of the Jews, so there would be a big sign at the gate surrounding the area where Jerusalem would be, saying, "All Gentiles, Keep Out!" In fact, there would be no gentiles other than a servant/slave class to do the manual labor for the Jews, and all Christians would be quarantined from the planet. So we would be the Gog and Magog who think they are getting in but get burnt up (in the Revelation depiction).
Twilight zone actually according to scripture the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to rest right here on Earth and that is where we will live with Christ and our Father. I don't know Darby or read Darby so idk what your infatuation with his -ism is supposed to mean.
No I did not call Jesus that. I was saying you are promoting an anti-gospel. My guess, based on your response, is that you believe in the Candy Man who you just happen to call Jesus. The thief in the night is talking about the downfall of the then-current religious system based in the temple at Jerusalem.
Did you just call Jesus the anti-gospel? Dewey, it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what Scripture says. His return is everything and there is a special gift waiting, a wedding invitation, for those whom Christ finds looking for him when he comes like that thief in that night when the sun does not shine and the moon does not give off her light.
Which fits with what I said earlier, which is your cult beliefs are of a nonphysical reality, while the Jews have a good time with a very real earth that we do not inherit (again, according to the cult belief, and not reality, which is what Jesus said, the meek will inherit the earth, not the ones who take it by force).
. . . Jesus who came to sacrifice his life in order to redeem us from this fleshly vanity.
That you support the murder of innocent Palestinian children by writing it off as God's judgment.
What does this have to do with jews, gentiles, or palestinians? I just told you, there are no more labels.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
The Word of God says "Therefore there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus." That removes one of the two choices . . .
Well then, how is it determined that you are "in Christ"?
Being justified does not exist outside of some form of judgment.
You are ignoring all the places in the Bible that describe a judgment that everyone must attend at some point.
The fact that people who meet certain requirements in the judgment will not be condemned, does not exclude there being a judgment.
If we are "justified" on judgment day then explain how can the Bible declare people are "just" while they are on Earth then? Do you want examples?
"The JUST shall live by faith."
That is actually an OT quote that Paul is giving to illustrate a point.
The word in the Greek is dikaios, which means righteous, which could be also interpreted as just. It is not being used in a legal way as Paul used the term, justified.
The word is a noun and it is used to describe people who behave in a way which would be approved by God.
Yes there is.
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Don't even attempt to school me on Greek, you don't even understand it's verb tenses.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
Right, but the emphases is on the concept of lawlessness, which is the literal meaning of the word here translated as worker of iniquity. The emphasis is not so much on the "never knew you", which is a way to describe how the person is not a true disciple of Jesus, but someone who merely makes use of the name, Jesus. It is talking about discipleship.
Doesn't Jesus say, "Depart from me ye that work iniquity for I never knew you"?The person was not attempting to go through a "back door".
Many people will try to get in through the back door who think their works are going to save them . . .
Anyway, you are going off-track, my claim is that people can and will present messages that are subversive to Jesus' teachings, all the while, using the name of Jesus. You seem to be saying that no they can't. Then in the midst of your argument, you are saying yes they can. I think you are a confused person who is just repeating something they hear from some cult leader, and don't really think any of these things through for yourself.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
Yes there is.
13:8 KJV states plainly that all those in the world whose names are not written in Jesus book of Life will worship the beast. Is this confusing?
3:5 is the letter to the church in Sardis in warning telling them to repent and watch lest he come like a thief and they be not ready. Coincidentally, the church just before is told to hold on to that they have until he comes. both reference his coming and also reference scripture elsewhere where Jesus is telling us that He is coming like a thief in the night but we are not of the darkness and will not have us be overtaken as though we were.
Is there something else you want me to explain about these verses?
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Or, maybe not. I think you explained by not saying anything about it, that you are blind to the obvious, that this is saying something about a trial scenario, where in your judgement, Jesus will look on his list, and if your name is on it, then he will act as your advocate during your trial. This obviously does away with your argument that you never have to stand for judgment.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
Just because someone calls them self John does not mean I somehow need to respect as the word of God whatever they write. Someone told you that you should, ans so just blindly believe it. It is not something you came to on your own.
If God is God then He is not bound by time for He is, was, and always will be. This is just plain old philosophy. Your disdain for John is amusing.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God lives outside of time. This is obviously another thing someone told you and you blindly believe like a good cult member.
This fits right in with the last thing. You are only assuming that "time and moment" is a creation of God, so you use that as a given, to support your argument that "creation" is not undone, even though the habitable earth (which is a creation of God) is un-created. (of course, according to your interpretation, and not mine, which is: this is not a reliable prediction of actual events that "must" soon come about, since "soon" is already up, and maybe why you have to throw in the bit about time being irrelevant, which begs the question, why does it say that, then)
Creation does not cease. Time and moment continues on.
You obviously do not read any in-depth literature on Revelation, otherwise everything I am saying about it would be very familiar to you.
You obviously don't study Revelation.
Is it really Christ saying that, or is it your cult leader?
You have said all will be judged. Christ says differently. And I choose Christ.edit on 11-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
There would (even if this is an accurate assessment of the Gospel message) still be a hearing where Jesus steps forward to claim you as one of his own, since it is obviously not based on your own claim that you are. But what you are saying is that you somehow get a pass from even having to show up, even though there is no mention of such a thing in the Bible, so I must take it as another teaching by your cult leader, and not something you came up with from just sitting down with your Bible.
Let me try it this way, to be judged in Christ is to be judged righteous without sin, to be judged apart form Christ there is only condemnation. Does this work for you?
Darby invented Dispensationalism. Maybe you do not belong to the mainstream of that larger cult, but belong to an off-shoot, smaller cult which only accepts part of the beliefs. According to Dispensationalism, Jerusalem is the sole property of the Jews, so there would be a big sign at the gate surrounding the area where Jerusalem would be, saying, "All Gentiles, Keep Out!" In fact, there would be no gentiles other than a servant/slave class to do the manual labor for the Jews, and all Christians would be quarantined from the planet. So we would be the Gog and Magog who think they are getting in but get burnt up (in the Revelation depiction).
Twilight zone actually according to scripture the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to rest right here on Earth and that is where we will live with Christ and our Father. I don't know Darby or read Darby so idk what your infatuation with his -ism is supposed to mean.
No I did not call Jesus that. I was saying you are promoting an anti-gospel. My guess, based on your response, is that you believe in the Candy Man who you just happen to call Jesus. The thief in the night is talking about the downfall of the then-current religious system based in the temple at Jerusalem.
Did you just call Jesus the anti-gospel? Dewey, it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what Scripture says. His return is everything and there is a special gift waiting, a wedding invitation, for those whom Christ finds looking for him when he comes like that thief in that night when the sun does not shine and the moon does not give off her light.
Which fits with what I said earlier, which is your cult beliefs are of a nonphysical reality, while the Jews have a good time with a very real earth that we do not inherit (again, according to the cult belief, and not reality, which is what Jesus said, the meek will inherit the earth, not the ones who take it by force).
. . . Jesus who came to sacrifice his life in order to redeem us from this fleshly vanity.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
That you support the murder of innocent Palestinian children by writing it off as God's judgment.
What does this have to do with jews, gentiles, or palestinians? I just told you, there are no more labels.edit on 11-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)
No wonder you worm and wiggle your way into a fabricated theory of salvation.
We will stand before the Great White throne (in reve after the thousand year reign) but not in condemnation.
He speaks of the day the "virgins" are called out and only five wise have filled their lamps with oil (the holy spirit) whereas the others miss the Groom's return because they are out trying to find oil for their lamps in that midnight hour.
Dewey, the people in this scripture are boasting of themselves about their works to Jesus . . .
This is talking about the Holy Spirit in its role as intercessor which speaks to God on our behalf as a transmitter of our prayers in words we are not capable of uttering.
. . . our advocate even now is making intercession for us to the Father.