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Christian doctrines vs scripture

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posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Condemnation IS a possible consequence of judgment. If one of the possible consequences is promised to never happen to us that make our doctrine fairly simple to understand.

2 - 1 = 1

Kindergarteners can grasp that mathematical equation.

If one of the two possible consequences of that judgment are promised to never happen to us, then the purpose of our judgment must have other implications, because we read that we are to be judged by Christ. And those implications are given in 1 Corinthians chapter 3.
This is only evidence of a severe form of self delusion, and illustrates further my earlier point, which is that you redefine terms to suite your preexisting belief.
In a judgement in a criminal court, you can be found, as a result of a trial, one of two things, innocent or guilty. Or in other words, condemned or exonerated, or in Christian terminology, justified.
If you do not go to judgment, then you can not be justified either.




posted on Apr, 10 2012 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Condemnation IS a possible consequence of judgment. If one of the possible consequences is promised to never happen to us that make our doctrine fairly simple to understand.

2 - 1 = 1

Kindergarteners can grasp that mathematical equation.

If one of the two possible consequences of that judgment are promised to never happen to us, then the purpose of our judgment must have other implications, because we read that we are to be judged by Christ. And those implications are given in 1 Corinthians chapter 3.


This is only evidence of a severe form of self delusion, and illustrates further my earlier point, which is that you redefine terms to suite your preexisting belief.


You said there were only two results of Judgment. I agree there are only two. Condemnation or non-condemnation. There is no middle choice unless you believe in Purgatory. The Word of God says "Therefore there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus." That removes one of the two choices, one of the three choices if you're a Roman Catholic.


In a judgement in a criminal court, you can be found, as a result of a trial, one of two things, innocent or guilty.


That example is relevant in one aspect and irrelevant in another. It's relevant in the aspect that there are two outcomes in a trial in criminal court, it's irrelevant in regards to Christian being judged because our defense attorney (Jesus) is also the Jury.


Or in other words, condemned or exonerated, or in Christian terminology, justified.


If we are "justified" on judgment day then explain how can the Bible declare people are "just" while they are on Earth then? Do you want examples?

"The JUST shall live by faith."

"For a JUST man falls seven times, and rises up again: but the wicked shall fall by calamity."


If you do not go to judgment, then you can not be justified either.


1. There are two judgments. One occurs on Earth at the end of the millennium, and one occurs in heaven immediately prior to the marriage supper of the Lamb. They are at minimum 1,000 years apart in time.

2. Justification is our position in Christ. The past tense usage of the term "save". The present tense usage is called "sanctification", the future tense version is called "glorification". That's why it's wise not to use the term salvation liberally to describe the three terms which are all mutually exclusive.


edit on 10-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

The Word of God says "Therefore there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus." That removes one of the two choices . . .
Well then, how is it determined that you are "in Christ"?
Being justified does not exist outside of some form of judgment.
You are ignoring all the places in the Bible that describe a judgment that everyone must attend at some point.
The fact that people who meet certain requirements in the judgment will not be condemned, does not exclude there being a judgment.

If we are "justified" on judgment day then explain how can the Bible declare people are "just" while they are on Earth then? Do you want examples?

"The JUST shall live by faith."
That is actually an OT quote that Paul is giving to illustrate a point.
The word in the Greek is dikaios, which means righteous, which could be also interpreted as just. It is not being used in a legal way as Paul used the term, justified.
The word is a noun and it is used to describe people who behave in a way which would be approved by God.
edit on 11-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 10:25 AM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

Doesn't Jesus say, "Depart from me ye that work iniquity for I never knew you"?
Right, but the emphases is on the concept of lawlessness, which is the literal meaning of the word here translated as worker of iniquity. The emphasis is not so much on the "never knew you", which is a way to describe how the person is not a true disciple of Jesus, but someone who merely makes use of the name, Jesus. It is talking about discipleship.

Many people will try to get in through the back door who think their works are going to save them . . .
The person was not attempting to go through a "back door".
Anyway, you are going off-track, my claim is that people can and will present messages that are subversive to Jesus' teachings, all the while, using the name of Jesus. You seem to be saying that no they can't. Then in the midst of your argument, you are saying yes they can. I think you are a confused person who is just repeating something they hear from some cult leader, and don't really think any of these things through for yourself.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

13:8 KJV states plainly that all those in the world whose names are not written in Jesus book of Life will worship the beast. Is this confusing?

3:5 is the letter to the church in Sardis in warning telling them to repent and watch lest he come like a thief and they be not ready. Coincidentally, the church just before is told to hold on to that they have until he comes. both reference his coming and also reference scripture elsewhere where Jesus is telling us that He is coming like a thief in the night but we are not of the darkness and will not have us be overtaken as though we were.

Is there something else you want me to explain about these verses?
Yes there is.
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Or, maybe not. I think you explained by not saying anything about it, that you are blind to the obvious, that this is saying something about a trial scenario, where in your judgement, Jesus will look on his list, and if your name is on it, then he will act as your advocate during your trial. This obviously does away with your argument that you never have to stand for judgment.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

If God is God then He is not bound by time for He is, was, and always will be. This is just plain old philosophy. Your disdain for John is amusing.
Just because someone calls them self John does not mean I somehow need to respect as the word of God whatever they write. Someone told you that you should, ans so just blindly believe it. It is not something you came to on your own.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God lives outside of time. This is obviously another thing someone told you and you blindly believe like a good cult member.

Creation does not cease. Time and moment continues on.
This fits right in with the last thing. You are only assuming that "time and moment" is a creation of God, so you use that as a given, to support your argument that "creation" is not undone, even though the habitable earth (which is a creation of God) is un-created. (of course, according to your interpretation, and not mine, which is: this is not a reliable prediction of actual events that "must" soon come about, since "soon" is already up, and maybe why you have to throw in the bit about time being irrelevant, which begs the question, why does it say that, then)

You obviously don't study Revelation.
You obviously do not read any in-depth literature on Revelation, otherwise everything I am saying about it would be very familiar to you.

You have said all will be judged. Christ says differently. And I choose Christ.
Is it really Christ saying that, or is it your cult leader?
edit on 11-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

Let me try it this way, to be judged in Christ is to be judged righteous without sin, to be judged apart form Christ there is only condemnation. Does this work for you?
There would (even if this is an accurate assessment of the Gospel message) still be a hearing where Jesus steps forward to claim you as one of his own, since it is obviously not based on your own claim that you are. But what you are saying is that you somehow get a pass from even having to show up, even though there is no mention of such a thing in the Bible, so I must take it as another teaching by your cult leader, and not something you came up with from just sitting down with your Bible.

Twilight zone actually according to scripture the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to rest right here on Earth and that is where we will live with Christ and our Father. I don't know Darby or read Darby so idk what your infatuation with his -ism is supposed to mean.
Darby invented Dispensationalism. Maybe you do not belong to the mainstream of that larger cult, but belong to an off-shoot, smaller cult which only accepts part of the beliefs. According to Dispensationalism, Jerusalem is the sole property of the Jews, so there would be a big sign at the gate surrounding the area where Jerusalem would be, saying, "All Gentiles, Keep Out!" In fact, there would be no gentiles other than a servant/slave class to do the manual labor for the Jews, and all Christians would be quarantined from the planet. So we would be the Gog and Magog who think they are getting in but get burnt up (in the Revelation depiction).

Did you just call Jesus the anti-gospel? Dewey, it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what Scripture says. His return is everything and there is a special gift waiting, a wedding invitation, for those whom Christ finds looking for him when he comes like that thief in that night when the sun does not shine and the moon does not give off her light.
No I did not call Jesus that. I was saying you are promoting an anti-gospel. My guess, based on your response, is that you believe in the Candy Man who you just happen to call Jesus. The thief in the night is talking about the downfall of the then-current religious system based in the temple at Jerusalem.

. . . Jesus who came to sacrifice his life in order to redeem us from this fleshly vanity.
Which fits with what I said earlier, which is your cult beliefs are of a nonphysical reality, while the Jews have a good time with a very real earth that we do not inherit (again, according to the cult belief, and not reality, which is what Jesus said, the meek will inherit the earth, not the ones who take it by force).

What does this have to do with jews, gentiles, or palestinians? I just told you, there are no more labels.
That you support the murder of innocent Palestinian children by writing it off as God's judgment.
edit on 11-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

The Word of God says "Therefore there is now no condemnation in Christ Jesus." That removes one of the two choices . . .


Well then, how is it determined that you are "in Christ"?


By our first birth we are "IN ADAM",1 Cor. 15:22, by our second birth, John 3, we are "IN CHRIST", 1 Cor. 15:22, and part of the new creation, 2 Cor. 5:17.


Being justified does not exist outside of some form of judgment.


The "judgment" that makes us justified who have faith in Him is God's judgment of sin at Calvary. That's why there is now no condemnation for us in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:1.


You are ignoring all the places in the Bible that describe a judgment that everyone must attend at some point.


Nope, all men when ever lived will appear at one of the two judgments.


The fact that people who meet certain requirements in the judgment will not be condemned, does not exclude there being a judgment.


There are two judgments. At one of them in heaven, (this should be a clue), is for the redeemed, where our works are judged after justification to determine crowns or loss thereof. The other one on Earth a minimum 1,000 years later is the judgment of the dead, those not "in Christ", and they are judged by their works to determine the type of their condemnation, no one at this judgment is saved.

Christians will be doing some judging at this judgment, fallen angels specifically. No person who is "in Christ" will appear at this judgment, it's for "the dead", or those not in covenant with Him through His shed blood.



If we are "justified" on judgment day then explain how can the Bible declare people are "just" while they are on Earth then? Do you want examples?

"The JUST shall live by faith."


That is actually an OT quote that Paul is giving to illustrate a point.


It's drawn upon in the NT to explain his thought. Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews.


The word in the Greek is dikaios, which means righteous, which could be also interpreted as just. It is not being used in a legal way as Paul used the term, justified.


I know exactly what the term is, it's from the root "Dike".


The word is a noun and it is used to describe people who behave in a way which would be approved by God.


Don't even attempt to school me on Greek, you don't even understand it's verb tenses. And you're right, the "just" are people declared righteous by God, He's the judge, it's his declaration. And faith is what counts for righteousness, not works of the law. For with works of the law shall NO FLESH be justified.

It's faith in Christ and His work at Calvary, not our own works, they don't justify us, we do them to glorify Christ only.


edit on 11-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Yes there is.
Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.


The "overcomer" is defined in scripture by the same man who wrote Revelation:


"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God."

1 John 5:4-5






edit on 11-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Don't even attempt to school me on Greek, you don't even understand it's verb tenses.

A little arrogant and puffed up?
You don't know a verb from a noun, so what are you talking about?
And what is this about "tenses"? That is only one aspect of the word.
Why do you even bring any of this up, since you don't explain anything about the Greek.
All you are doing is throwing in a put-down out of some kind of spite.
What you need is some real live spirit from God which you can not receive because of ill will you hold against others that you cherish too much to give up. Also your idolatry to the god of Zionism, and the murder you are guilty of by encouraging the killing of the rightful inhabitants of Palestine. No wonder you worm and wiggle your way into a fabricated theory of salvation.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

Doesn't Jesus say, "Depart from me ye that work iniquity for I never knew you"?
Right, but the emphases is on the concept of lawlessness, which is the literal meaning of the word here translated as worker of iniquity. The emphasis is not so much on the "never knew you", which is a way to describe how the person is not a true disciple of Jesus, but someone who merely makes use of the name, Jesus. It is talking about discipleship.

Many people will try to get in through the back door who think their works are going to save them . . .
The person was not attempting to go through a "back door".
Anyway, you are going off-track, my claim is that people can and will present messages that are subversive to Jesus' teachings, all the while, using the name of Jesus. You seem to be saying that no they can't. Then in the midst of your argument, you are saying yes they can. I think you are a confused person who is just repeating something they hear from some cult leader, and don't really think any of these things through for yourself.


Dewey, the people in this scripture are boasting of themselves about their works to Jesus but the law is Love and salvation is by grace, not works as I've been telling you all along. Of a truth, John 10:1 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."

The power of God is through the Holy Spirit. By Christ we now have access to said Holy Spirit. For those whom Jesus never knew, they did not exercise power in the Holy Spirit. So whatever power they did/do exercise is not of or for Jesus. Those good trees that bear good fruit, those who present and live by the name of Jesus in the Holy Spirit are not the subverters of truth. Those the scripture at hand speaks of who are turned away are those who worship him with their lips having hearts far removed from him. (matthew 15:8)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

13:8 KJV states plainly that all those in the world whose names are not written in Jesus book of Life will worship the beast. Is this confusing?

3:5 is the letter to the church in Sardis in warning telling them to repent and watch lest he come like a thief and they be not ready. Coincidentally, the church just before is told to hold on to that they have until he comes. both reference his coming and also reference scripture elsewhere where Jesus is telling us that He is coming like a thief in the night but we are not of the darkness and will not have us be overtaken as though we were.

Is there something else you want me to explain about these verses?
Yes there is.
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Or, maybe not. I think you explained by not saying anything about it, that you are blind to the obvious, that this is saying something about a trial scenario, where in your judgement, Jesus will look on his list, and if your name is on it, then he will act as your advocate during your trial. This obviously does away with your argument that you never have to stand for judgment.


So your problem now is semantics? I already addressed this Dewey. Those who belong to Christ will stand before God, but not in judgments because our advocate even now is making intercession for us to the Father.

By the way, "white robes" are given to the martyred saints of God who call out from underneath the altar in heaven for vengeance upon the ungodly. Sardis, being given white robes after Thyatira is told to hold fast til Jesus comes would seem to indicate a people who give up their life for Christ during the Great Tribulation not taking the mark of the beast or worshiping him. Think about it



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

If God is God then He is not bound by time for He is, was, and always will be. This is just plain old philosophy. Your disdain for John is amusing.
Just because someone calls them self John does not mean I somehow need to respect as the word of God whatever they write. Someone told you that you should, ans so just blindly believe it. It is not something you came to on your own.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God lives outside of time. This is obviously another thing someone told you and you blindly believe like a good cult member.


Perhaps study John's writings in an attempt to discern what Spirit lives within the words. He didn't write just anything


And please,
this is simply philosophy. Anything Eternal is therefore by definition timeless.

P.s. I did come to what I believe on my own through prayer for understanding and studying. All you're offending is the air, not me







Creation does not cease. Time and moment continues on.
This fits right in with the last thing. You are only assuming that "time and moment" is a creation of God, so you use that as a given, to support your argument that "creation" is not undone, even though the habitable earth (which is a creation of God) is un-created. (of course, according to your interpretation, and not mine, which is: this is not a reliable prediction of actual events that "must" soon come about, since "soon" is already up, and maybe why you have to throw in the bit about time being irrelevant, which begs the question, why does it say that, then)


In God's time He will accomplish all things. I don't know what else to tell you about the differences in our understandings.



You obviously don't study Revelation.
You obviously do not read any in-depth literature on Revelation, otherwise everything I am saying about it would be very familiar to you.

You arguments are familiar. You're not the first to have doubts. That's why I searched out the answers. Now I know for myself because I do study for myself and I well provided ample and adequate scripture in refutation of your faulty premises and not just according to my opinion based on the generalities in supposed in-depth literature or fake interpretations.



You have said all will be judged. Christ says differently. And I choose Christ.
Is it really Christ saying that, or is it your cult leader?
edit on 11-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


Our Father told us He would never leave us or forsake us if we would but draw nigh unto Him. Christ is the way, the truth, and life. Jesus is my Lord and I joy in God for him

edit on 11-4-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

Let me try it this way, to be judged in Christ is to be judged righteous without sin, to be judged apart form Christ there is only condemnation. Does this work for you?
There would (even if this is an accurate assessment of the Gospel message) still be a hearing where Jesus steps forward to claim you as one of his own, since it is obviously not based on your own claim that you are. But what you are saying is that you somehow get a pass from even having to show up, even though there is no mention of such a thing in the Bible, so I must take it as another teaching by your cult leader, and not something you came up with from just sitting down with your Bible.


You have your panties in a jihad about semantics, Dewey. We will stand before the Great White throne (in reve after the thousand year reign) but not in condemnation. That's all I know to tell you.




Twilight zone actually according to scripture the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to rest right here on Earth and that is where we will live with Christ and our Father. I don't know Darby or read Darby so idk what your infatuation with his -ism is supposed to mean.
Darby invented Dispensationalism. Maybe you do not belong to the mainstream of that larger cult, but belong to an off-shoot, smaller cult which only accepts part of the beliefs. According to Dispensationalism, Jerusalem is the sole property of the Jews, so there would be a big sign at the gate surrounding the area where Jerusalem would be, saying, "All Gentiles, Keep Out!" In fact, there would be no gentiles other than a servant/slave class to do the manual labor for the Jews, and all Christians would be quarantined from the planet. So we would be the Gog and Magog who think they are getting in but get burnt up (in the Revelation depiction).


The Church in Thyatira is given rulership over the nations. Elsewhere God says He will no more pass over Israel. Only 144,000 out of the tribes are even chosen for a particular scenario, and Jesus says there is no such thing as jew, gentile, greek, or otherwise (spiritually). So really, I don't know or care about Darby or what He believed. I know what I've read for myself. Those who love God in deed, spirit, and truth are not Gog and Magog.

Chi-xi-stigma as Basmala makes more sense to me than anything.



Did you just call Jesus the anti-gospel? Dewey, it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what Scripture says. His return is everything and there is a special gift waiting, a wedding invitation, for those whom Christ finds looking for him when he comes like that thief in that night when the sun does not shine and the moon does not give off her light.
No I did not call Jesus that. I was saying you are promoting an anti-gospel. My guess, based on your response, is that you believe in the Candy Man who you just happen to call Jesus. The thief in the night is talking about the downfall of the then-current religious system based in the temple at Jerusalem.


False. He speaks of His return as quick like lightning that shines from east to west. He speaks of the day when two will be standing in the field and then one will be gone. He speaks of the day the "virgins" are called out and only five wise have filled their lamps with oil (the holy spirit) whereas the others miss the Groom's return because they are out trying to find oil for their lamps in that midnight hour. He speaks of the day he returns with his angels, sending them out to gather together those who belong to him.

it's true Dewey. Jesus is coming even as he says.




. . . Jesus who came to sacrifice his life in order to redeem us from this fleshly vanity.
Which fits with what I said earlier, which is your cult beliefs are of a nonphysical reality, while the Jews have a good time with a very real earth that we do not inherit (again, according to the cult belief, and not reality, which is what Jesus said, the meek will inherit the earth, not the ones who take it by force).


Non-flesh does not equal non-real. We physically shall be something else akin to the angels according to scripture. Believe what your cult leader tells you
, I'll trust in Christ, the Word of God unto faith, hope, and unfeigned love.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

What does this have to do with jews, gentiles, or palestinians? I just told you, there are no more labels.
That you support the murder of innocent Palestinian children by writing it off as God's judgment.
edit on 11-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


I don't support murder and killing even of my enemies, Dewey. Do you support the eradication of the Israeli people?

The reality is that the evil hearts of men cause much destruction but God knows the innocent and he keeps them even in death. This fleshly life is not all there is and I think perhaps you love this fleshly life too much (imo).
Regardless, God's judgment wherever it be, is righteous whether we think so or not.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



No wonder you worm and wiggle your way into a fabricated theory of salvation.


That's the epitome of irony. The Greek text shows clearly you're 110% wrong. "Saved" and "justified" are in the past tense for a reason. The process of justification is done here on Earth, as a result of the cross, not a result of a judgment in the future.

We either have faith in that or not.

And P.S. "Just" is an adjective, neither a noun or verb. Should I have said don't even try to school me on Greek verb tenses when you cant even get English parts of speech correct? Better?




edit on 11-4-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



We will stand before the Great White throne (in reve after the thousand year reign) but not in condemnation.


No, Christians are not at that judgment, we have to appear before the Judgment (bhema) Seat of Christ. GWTJ is a judgment that if you're at you're going to Hell. It's a sentencing for the "dead", that's why those judged there are judged by their works.

The Bhema seat is in heaven immediately prior to the marriage supper, and the 2nd coming.



posted on Apr, 11 2012 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



He speaks of the day the "virgins" are called out and only five wise have filled their lamps with oil (the holy spirit) whereas the others miss the Groom's return because they are out trying to find oil for their lamps in that midnight hour.


All Christians have the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible to be convicted if not. Secondly, we don't fill ourselves with the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ does. Oil is referred to as those who are looking for Him to return, the unwise virgins are not, that's why they don't have oil, light on, and awake looking for Him. It signifies them napping when He comes, not alert and ready to leave. They don't think He is coming at that hour. But both the unwise and the wise are called "virgins" so they are saved, some are waiting, some are not.

Some Christians are waiting expectantly for His return, some are not. There is also a crown to be given for those who are taken and waiting.



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

Dewey, the people in this scripture are boasting of themselves about their works to Jesus . . .

Again, none of this has to do with why I was quoting this from Mathew 7. I was saying that people presenting themselves as Christians and saying the name, Jesus, can and will be working to subvert Christianity my teaching against righteousness. This is why the passage starts out by saying, ". . . only the one who does the will of my Father . . ."



posted on Apr, 12 2012 @ 11:24 AM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 

. . . our advocate even now is making intercession for us to the Father.
This is talking about the Holy Spirit in its role as intercessor which speaks to God on our behalf as a transmitter of our prayers in words we are not capable of uttering.
What I am talking about is Jesus acting as defense attorney.
edit on 12-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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