Christian doctrines vs scripture

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


And you can have that opinion that's fine. There is no compulsion in Christianity like there is in Islam, we won't cut your head off and post the video on a Christian fundamentalist website if you refuse to agree to our beliefs. We won't drag you out in the streets by your hair and stone you to death if a person leaves the faith. We aren't that team bro. Believe anything you want to. God gave you that free will and every time you exercise it you glorify Him.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

And you can have that opinion that's fine. There is no compulsion in Christianity like there is in Islam, we won't cut your head off and post the video on a Christian fundamentalist website if you refuse to agree to our beliefs. We won't drag you out in the streets by your hair and stone you to death if a person leaves the faith. We aren't that team bro. Believe anything you want to. God gave you that free will and every time you exercise it you glorify Him.

You will notice that I did not make this thread from an islamic perspective. Its not like I was using the Koran to show christian doctrine is wrong.

The words of the bible itself shows that christian doctrine is wrong, and I'll stick by it.

Also,perhaps you missed my post where I mentioned my religious background clear....
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

And you can have that opinion that's fine. There is no compulsion in Christianity like there is in Islam, we won't cut your head off and post the video on a Christian fundamentalist website if you refuse to agree to our beliefs. We won't drag you out in the streets by your hair and stone you to death if a person leaves the faith. We aren't that team bro. Believe anything you want to. God gave you that free will and every time you exercise it you glorify Him.

You will notice that I did not make this thread from an islamic perspective. Its not like I was using the Koran to show christian doctrine is wrong.

That's not relevant. My point was that Christianity, unlike Islam, isn't a compulsory religion. You're free to believe what you want without us murdering you for it. I don't focus on Islam, the focus is Jesus Christ.

The words of the bible itself shows that christian doctrine is wrong, and I'll stick by it.

Be my guest. I hope you'll respect my right to disagree with you and that I see it completely different.

Also,perhaps you missed my post where I mentioned my religious background clear....
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm not calling you a Muslim, I used Islam as a contrasting compulsory example against Biblical Christianity.

This isn't about you or Islam, it's about Christ Jesus.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

We will not approach the judgment throne other than to hear our names called in the Lambs book of life.

This is only a cult teaching which ignores the many biblical references to judgment. It is rejecting the very definition of a judgment and making it into an awards ceremony. This is your cult's attempt to subvert morality and is no surprise considering its purpose is to destroy Christianity and the church, and the very name of Jesus.

Do you realize how ignorant it is to claim that by the name of Jesus morality, Christianity, and the church are subverted?

Those whose names are not found will stand before the judgment throne giving account of everything they've ever done as there are other books that will be opened besides the book of Life.

This is some sort of interpretation from Revelation which is rather inexplicable in itself.

Inexplicable? Other than interlinear, KJV is the closest word for word translation we have and what can be read is clear as, "If your name is not written in the Lambs book of life you will stand before God in judgment." Ergo if it is written you will not stand in judgment.

I realize there are some people who take the book as some point-by-point description of future events and is in fact a message from Jesus to John, whoever that is, and it is prophecy that has to happen just as written, but I have to be realistic about it and figure it is someone who desired greatly that the Roman Empire is punished by God, so the way he figures it is going to come about is by having the Final Judgment happen now, instead of this nebulous, far-off, distant hypothetical (or even completely spiritual) event, and create a version of it and move it into the nearby, soon to happen future.

Time is only relative in the sight of God. And vengeance is His both physically and spiritually, not either or, and both are expressed in Revelation. You should read 1,2,3 John. 1 John Chapter 4 is particularly enlightening if you'd like to stop figuring to John's mind-frame and actually know it.

The main point of the story is the beast, and why and how it manages to operate. Actually it's the revelation of Jesus. The dragon, beast 1, and beast 2 really play the smallest of parts when it comes to the ultimate consummation of faith hope and love.

It is the same age-old question, "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?". The writer of Revelation takes imagery from Babylonian mythology and the cosmic warrior god, Marduk and the chaos beasts from before creation, and has them fulfill their purpose, which is to bring down judgment and the end of time. The purpose for all that is to make a new and better creation, one where the gods have had time to sort out their affairs, and the new creation will not involve those bad gods, and the result will be orderly and not containing evil like it does now.
Apparently by this recycled mythology in a Christian guise, the people known to be ok in this world have already been recorded before the world was even finished being made, and at the end, those will be sorted out from the masses as the ones who will have the privilege of living in the new creation. The "books" is to make it look like there is a fair judgment before the people not pre-selected are destroyed. I have to imagine that this idea of preordained salvation is a carryover from whatever mythology the Marduk myth comes from, apparently Babylonian.

edit on 6-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

I'm not here to argue mythology. As to what matters, Christ really happened. Vengeance really is God's and his alone. If you don't want to stand before God in judgment then please accept our Father's gift, salvation by His grace through our Faith in the one whom God gave to be sin for us.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

. . . sins that war against . . .

I saw this part and started getting happy all-of-a-sudden, then I saw that it was not war, but war against yourself, basically, which goes along with what I was saying yesterday, which is you seem to follow a religion geared towards narcissistic people who want things for themselves but really don't care about anyone else.
Just do what is good for you, and never mind all the rest. Don't get drunk, not because you might end up beating your wife, but because it isn't healthy for your body.
Oh I get it.
So everything is just fine among the unconverted as long as it suites yourself.

If wanting mercy and finding love in Jesus Christ is narcissistic then so be it (although I don't understand your reasoning )but if I only wanted those things for myself I would not be on here sharing the truth according to scripture. On some level I live for my own health, and on another level I live my life for the edification of others. Nevertheless, I am not judged by your sins, not in my flesh or my spirit.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

Jesus now sits at the right hand of the Father on the very throne of grace. Christ became sin for us. Where there is forgiveness there is no more condemnation, no more judgment. Don't you get it? Those of us in Christ will never see judgment, we are no longer condemned being washed clean by the blood of the lamb.

That is a false doctrine.
I can't even imagine where you could even come up with this idea unless you get it from Darby-ism, this "Removal of Christians from the face of the earth to make way for Old Testament Judaism, complete with temple animal sacrifices" cult religion.

Mark 16:19 Jesus ascends to right hand of the Father
Hebrews 4:16 Throne of Grace
Romans 8:1 No more condemnation for those in Christ
Revelation 1:5, Rev 12:11 Washed in the blood, victory because of the blood of the lamb

No -isms, just scripture.

As I figure it, this cult exists for one purpose, which is to allow a criminal enterprise to flourish in Palestine, of genocide and ethnic cleaning to rid the rightful inhabitants of the land to be replaced by European invaders.

Only God owns the land. There is no more jew, or gentile (Gal 3:28, Rom 10:12). We are only stewards until the Master returns and I think we would all do good to remember that.

Jesus came to save the world by judging evil and bringing into the world a spirit from God for people to behave in an ethical manner. This subversive cult fights against that understanding and replaces it with a personal, inward looking view that is all about the self, and your worth in your own eyes, and the worthlessness of anyone not in your cult. Get raptured, and let the world go to hell.

If you'd study revelation closer you'd see that many come out of great tribulation. This life is hell for many of us and what we want most is to be with God and when we consider the vanity, we are excited about the harpazo and want other to turn away from the world and thereof. We want you to come with us and if you refuse, there is coming a time when many will come out of great tribulation. Hell is only reserved for the hardest of hearts who, even seeing God with their own eyes will still refuse Him.

If you define yourself by the World then you have judged yourself already and have yourself subverted God's very love and grace.

That is what the inventors and promoters of this cult want everyone in America to think is real Christianity.

I think they would have us believe as you believe, that it's all a lie.

God wants to kill everyone anyway. Is that about right?

Not the God I've read about and trust in.

Don't worry about children in Gaza being burnt alive with white phosphorus bombs, since they will be getting worse than that, in the lake of fire, right?

God is judge, not me. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and justice upon whom He will have justice.

How dare they have the audacity to live on land given by God to people who want to sacrifice sheep on their mountain? Is that right?

I'm sorry for the anger and hurt you feel. Men do evil things in the name of God but their hearts are truly far from Him. God's will is that none should perish but that all would come to know His love and everlasting life but that too means we have to accept Him.

A false and evil cult, I say, and you will go to judgment no matter what your cult leader tells you, I can assure you of that.

edit on 6-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

I have no assurance in any other than Christ. Do you have assurance?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That's why I have faith. And we have two different approaches to Biblical hermeneutics. I prefer the literal for OT and NT prophecy, you prefer the allegorical. It's really an issue about that.

This a bare assertion on your part, which you have yet to demonstrate.
I don't believe you have a more literal interpretation method than I do. What it seems to me is you having a selection process for determining what you will address, and what you will ignore, with a bias towards what appears to support the positions you have already established as your chosen belief.
Darby established Dispensationalism, something which was new and unique to him, which he spent ten years developing. It would be a denial of obvious reality to think that you came up with that same system on your own. Whatever form that you hold to owes its existence to Darby.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You're always saying not to take the Eschatelogical verses literally.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Do you realize how ignorant it is to claim that by the name of Jesus morality, Christianity, and the church are subverted?

There is a place in the Gospels where Jesus describes people attempting to enter the kingdom, and he turns away someone who is telling of his work in Jesus' name, calling him a worker of iniquity.

Inexplicable?

The Book of Revelation is, I said.

Ergo if it is written you will not stand in judgment.

Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

OK, so what is this describing in the verse above?

Time is only relative in the sight of God.

It obviously is to the writer of Revelation.

The main point of the story is the beast, and why and how it manages to operate. Actually it's the revelation of Jesus. The dragon, beast 1, and beast 2 really play the smallest of parts when it comes to the ultimate consummation of faith hope and love.

According to the Book of Enoch, which the writer of Revelation seems to be drawing on for his use of the two beasts, they are the personal pets of God to bring about an end to creation.

I'm not here to argue mythology.

Revelation appears to be a Christianized version of mythology.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Nevertheless, I am not judged by your sins, not in my flesh or my spirit.

Not really sure what you mean here but I am guessing it is a reiteration of what you said earlier which is that you do not see yourself ever facing any sort of judgement, by taking all the places in the Bible talking about how all people will face judgment, by basically redefining the term to make it something other than a judgment.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Romans 8:1 No more condemnation for those in Christ

Apparently you follow the same interpretation methodology as NuT, which is creating new definitions for words, so fit your existing religious system of Darby-ism, where "condemnation" means judgement, rather than one of two possible outcomes of a judgment.

Only God owns the land. There is no more jew, or gentile (Gal 3:28, Rom 10:12). We are only stewards until the Master returns and I think we would all do good to remember that.

Apparently you have a "reformed" version of Darby-ism, rather than the more hard-core "traditional" Darby-ism that NuT supports. He seems to hold that there is a distinction for Jews in regards to a "land covenant", and I guess Christians going off to some twilight zone while the Jews inherit the earth.

We want you to come with us and if you refuse, there is coming a time when many will come out of great tribulation.

This is a doctrine I find more peculiar than anything else in this Darby-ism philosophy, the idea that in order to be raptured, one must first believe in the rapture. I see this as the anti-gospel.

If you define yourself by the World then you have judged yourself already and have yourself subverted God's very love and grace.

I define myself by the reality which I find myself in, which is a physical universe, and myself as being a physical person living on a planet. We are obviously designed to live this way and I see no other way to live where we are who we are. You may choose to believe in a non-physical future reality but it is nothing I would be interested in and would find to be more in line with the concept of Hell.

God is judge, not me. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and justice upon whom He will have justice.

So what happened to your quoting Paul saying there is no longer Jew or gentile? I guess that means as long as they are not Palestinians. So murdering non-Jews is the "will of God" to you?

I'm sorry for the anger and hurt you feel.

What you are witnessing being expressed is something which would be a normal response to the suffering to others, if you had not already killed the spirit of God that should dwell in all Christians, by believing in a god-willed land grab by murderous thugs, since you have adopted the spirit of lawlessness by creating a false world to come which has no judgment bar at its door. You have seared your conscience with a hot iron, while you push forward to your dream reward of crowns of glory.

I have no assurance in any other than Christ. Do you have assurance?

Mine is a personal experience, not some philosophical conjecture on how to game the system when judgment time comes.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You're always saying not to take the Eschatelogical verses literally.

Perhaps I did in the past when it comes to Revelation, but I have changed my mind and decide to reject Revelation as divinely inspired prophecy , but as reworked old mythology which does not even understand the meanings of all the parts which it has Incorporated into the writing.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You're always saying not to take the Eschatelogical verses literally.

Perhaps I did in the past when it comes to Revelation, but I have changed my mind and decide to reject Revelation as divinely inspired prophecy , but as reworked old mythology which does not even understand the meanings of all the parts which it has Incorporated into the writing.

Revelation isn't the only book of prophecy. Everything in that book is in code anyways, and out of the 400 some verses in it, they refer to 800 some places in the OT.

You don't even need the NT to understand God's prophetic plan, you can use Ezekiel, Isaiah, Hosea, Joel, and Jeremiah for that.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Apparently you follow the same interpretation methodology as NuT, which is creating new definitions for words, so fit your existing religious system of Darby-ism, where "condemnation" means judgement, rather than one of two possible outcomes of a judgment.

Condemnation IS a possible consequence of judgment. If one of the possible consequences is promised to never happen to us that make our doctrine fairly simple to understand.

2 - 1 = 1

Kindergarteners can grasp that mathematical equation.

If one of the two possible consequences of that judgment are promised to never happen to us, then the purpose of our judgment must have other implications, because we read that we are to be judged by Christ. And those implications are given in 1 Corinthians chapter 3.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

Do you realize how ignorant it is to claim that by the name of Jesus morality, Christianity, and the church are subverted?

There is a place in the Gospels where Jesus describes people attempting to enter the kingdom, and he turns away someone who is telling of his work in Jesus' name, calling him a worker of iniquity.

Doesn't Jesus say, "Depart from me ye that work iniquity for I never knew you"?

Many people will try to get in through the back door who think their works are going to save them and they will undoubtedly say to Jesus look at what all I did for you but the truth is that everything they did was for selfish gain while never trusting in Christ for salvation. This is why he never knew them. What do you think scripture means when Christ says I would that you were either hot or cold but the lukewarm I will spew out of my mouth? Or what about scripture of the one who comes to the marriage feast without a wedding garment and is thrown out in weeping and gnashing of teeth? Dewey, these people never accepted Christ. Relative morality is garbage in the eyes of a righteous God. Nonetheless, your reply doesn't even begin to address my assertion. How does the Light of the world subvert morality, truth, and God's love when without the name of Jesus mankind knows no love but selfish self-serving love?

Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

OK, so what is this describing in the verse above?

13:8 KJV states plainly that all those in the world whose names are not written in Jesus book of Life will worship the beast. Is this confusing?

3:5 is the letter to the church in Sardis in warning telling them to repent and watch lest he come like a thief and they be not ready. Coincidentally, the church just before is told to hold on to that they have until he comes. both reference his coming and also reference scripture elsewhere where Jesus is telling us that He is coming like a thief in the night but we are not of the darkness and will not have us be overtaken as though we were.

Is there something else you want me to explain about these verses?

Time is only relative in the sight of God.

It obviously is to the writer of Revelation.

If God is God then He is not bound by time for He is, was, and always will be. This is just plain old philosophy. Your disdain for John is amusing.

The main point of the story is the beast, and why and how it manages to operate.

Actually it's the revelation of Jesus. The dragon, beast 1, and beast 2 really play the smallest of parts when it comes to the ultimate consummation of faith hope and love.

According to the Book of Enoch, which the writer of Revelation seems to be drawing on for his use of the two beasts, they are the personal pets of God to bring about an end to creation.
The "end of creation" is a misnomer. The Earth will be redone in fire, whereas we will be changed. Life is not over. Creation does not cease. Time and moment continues on. The two beasts simply help God sort out the wheat from the chaff although that isn't the way the beasts see it but nevertheless, Jesus return and our redemption, reconciliation, and return to the Father in the name of Jesus is what this is about.

I'm not here to argue mythology.

Revelation appears to be a Christianized version of mythology.

edit on 10-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

You obviously don't study Revelation.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

Nevertheless, I am not judged by your sins, not in my flesh or my spirit.

Not really sure what you mean here but I am guessing it is a reiteration of what you said earlier which is that you do not see yourself ever facing any sort of judgement, by taking all the places in the Bible talking about how all people will face judgment, by basically redefining the term to make it something other than a judgment.

I think your confused Dewey. Jesus has the power to forgive sins and redeem us from the penalty of sin. If this truth is not what your Bible is about then we aren't reading the same Bible.

You have said all will be judged. Christ says differently. And I choose Christ.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Doesn't Jesus say, "Depart from me ye that work iniquity for I never knew you"?

Yep, and the Greek word "know" is "Gnosis", and it implies a deep intimate knowledge. Those people operated with the power of His name and He never once had an intimate personal relationship with Him. The same word Mary uses when she says "But I have not known (Gnosis) a man."

Christ desires intimacy, relationship. Not religion, He didn't come to Earth to die for us so we could invent the Christian version of Pharisaical Judaism.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

Romans 8:1 No more condemnation for those in Christ

Apparently you follow the same interpretation methodology as NuT, which is creating new definitions for words, so fit your existing religious system of Darby-ism, where "condemnation" means judgement, rather than one of two possible outcomes of a judgment.

Let me try it this way, to be judged in Christ is to be judged righteous without sin, to be judged apart form Christ there is only condemnation. Does this work for you?

Only God owns the land. There is no more jew, or gentile (Gal 3:28, Rom 10:12). We are only stewards until the Master returns and I think we would all do good to remember that.

Apparently you have a "reformed" version of Darby-ism, rather than the more hard-core "traditional" Darby-ism that NuT supports. He seems to hold that there is a distinction for Jews in regards to a "land covenant", and I guess Christians going off to some twilight zone while the Jews inherit the earth.

Twilight zone actually according to scripture the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to rest right here on Earth and that is where we will live with Christ and our Father. I don't know Darby or read Darby so idk what your infatuation with his -ism is supposed to mean.

We want you to come with us and if you refuse, there is coming a time when many will come out of great tribulation.

This is a doctrine I find more peculiar than anything else in this Darby-ism philosophy, the idea that in order to be raptured, one must first believe in the rapture. I see this as the anti-gospel.

Did you just call Jesus the anti-gospel? Dewey, it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what Scripture says. His return is everything and there is a special gift waiting, a wedding invitation, for those whom Christ finds looking for him when he comes like that thief in that night when the sun does not shine and the moon does not give off her light.

If you define yourself by the World then you have judged yourself already and have yourself subverted God's very love and grace.

I define myself by the reality which I find myself in, which is a physical universe, and myself as being a physical person living on a planet. We are obviously designed to live this way and I see no other way to live where we are who we are. You may choose to believe in a non-physical future reality but it is nothing I would be interested in and would find to be more in line with the concept of Hell.

I too would perhaps feel the same had it not been for a very physical Jesus who came to sacrifice his life in order to redeem us from this fleshly vanity. Death is all that awaits the physical. If you don't cherish the presence of God or the reality of Jesus then what else can I say to you?

God is judge, not me. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and justice upon whom He will have justice.

So what happened to your quoting Paul saying there is no longer Jew or gentile? I guess that means as long as they are not Palestinians.

What does this have to do with jews, gentiles, or palestinians? I just told you, there are no more labels. God judges the hearts of men whether in Christ or not. Salvation has nothing to do with what piece of dirt one comes from. As for the littlest of children, God is a righteous judge and I'm sure he has a beautiful plan for those who never knew the depths of sin.

So murdering non-Jews is the "will of God" to you?

Our fight is not against flesh and blood...(eph 6:10+)

You're projecting beliefs upon me that I do not hold nor have I spoken to.

We are under a new covenant. We bless those who curse us, pray for those who spitefully use us, we feed and give water to our enemies, and we turn also the other cheek. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this World and his followers do not fight as though it were.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I'm sorry for the anger and hurt you feel.

What you are witnessing being expressed is something which would be a normal response to the suffering to others, if you had not already killed the spirit of God that should dwell in all Christians, by believing in a god-willed land grab by murderous thugs, since you have adopted the spirit of lawlessness by creating a false world to come which has no judgment bar at its door.

Have you heard nothing I have said? The land belongs to God, not us. There should be no killing over dirt or belief.

And believe me, God's wrath is coming but not on those who belong to Christ in spirit and truth.

You have seared your conscience with a hot iron, while you push forward to your dream reward of crowns of glory.

I do not want a crown and glory is God's . I just want to be with Him and I believe Christ.

I have no assurance in any other than Christ. Do you have assurance?

Mine is a personal experience, not some philosophical conjecture on how to game the system when judgment time comes.

edit on 10-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Christ is no philosophical conjecture. And he has my heart. Judgment comes and you are prepared by personal experience? Sounds like you don't take God's wrath very seriously. I wish you would.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Everything in that book is in code anyways . . .

"Codes" indicates a falsity to me, and not some sort of magical proof of its validity.
You can not create a true Gospel from the OT, since Paul says it was a mystery until after the fact.