Christian doctrines vs scripture

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

If salvation was by works there would have been no need for Christ. . . .
. . . For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

You don't see a bit of irony that you put these two statements in the same post?

God so loved the world that He sent his son.
Jesus said he came to save the world.
The goal is to save the world, and how that is done is through people taking to themselves
the ideals taught by Jesus and receiving the spirit from heaven to carry them out.
An individual being "saved" in the process is a collateral benefit.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


Read that again...slowly

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I'm not talking about Christians.
I mean Jews claim the right to God and the Messiah, and resent Christians for appropriating those from them.
People sympathetic to the Jews but hateful towards Christians imagine they can gain points in this world by steering Christians to a belief that strips Jesus of those titles.

Actually, the jews believe that non-jews can be "saved" without adhering to the Judaism. They dont condemn entire groups of people as "hellbound" simply because they dont see things as they do.

It is the christians who claim God and the messiah is contained within their religion.
You see, christians need jewish scripture to validate their own religion. They have usurped and modified jewish monotheism to suit their doctrines, because without the old testament religion, christianity becomes a new religion started by a young man in the middle east. With the old testament religion, christians can claim a "special" understanding of the bible.

Ever noticed how Jews and Christians both read from the same book and believe 2 entirely different things? How is it that christians can find a "trinity" in the old testament and the jews cant? If the christians are correct, then it is implies that the jews didn't realize that God was a trinity all along.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You see, christians need jewish scripture to validate their own religion.

The first Christians were Jews, so needed to understand how to see the Old Testament in a way that validated their choice to believe in Jesus because it included apparent contradictions with the rabbinic leadership.

The gentiles, and people today, including the Christians do not need the OT to validate their belief.
Judaism as understood in the time of Jesus does not exist today, and has not since 70 AD.
There isn't anything to go "back" to that you can find in the OT.

. . . the jews believe that non-jews can be "saved" without adhering to the Judaism.

All that is is a way to denounce Jesus and accept the rabbis as their God, then the Jews will refrain from spitting on you in this life. There is no offer of "salvation" connected to that.

reply to post by jmdewey60

The first Christians were Jews, so needed to understand how to see the Old Testament in a way that validated their choice to believe in Jesus because it included apparent contradictions with the rabbinic leadership.

The first christians were jews, yes.
Then it means that these "first christians" did not have non-jewish beliefs such as trinity and Jesus' sin sacrifice. Jesus was only an "update" for the existing religion of the Israelites... and so the first christians did not have to entirely discard their beliefs to accept Jesus.

What we know today as christianity, with its doctrines of "trinity", "original sin" and "sin sacrifice", is a result of European influence on a Semitic belief system.

All that is is a way to denounce Jesus and accept the rabbis as their God, then the Jews will refrain from spitting on you in this life. There is no offer of "salvation" connected to that.

While the jews made the mistake of rejecting Jesus, I wouldn't go so far as to say they accept their Rabbis as their God. They are influenced by their Rabbis, in the same way as Christians are influenced by their pastors/preachers etc.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

. . . and so the first christians did not have to entirely discard their beliefs to accept Jesus.

Jesus was Adonai as prophesied in Malachi, who is The Lord.
The coming of The Lord was what the first verses in Mark says was what John the Baptist was preparing the way for.
When Thomas in the Gospel of John says, my Lord and my God, this was Jesus replacing YHWH.
The knowledge of the old avenging angel of death was pushed aside in favor of the understanding of a God who goes by the name of Jesus.

I wouldn't go so far as to say . . .

I would. That is built into the system you described earlier. Do you think God told the rabbis that they could set up a system outside of regular Judaism just for gentiles? No, they decided on doing that themselves and they tell God He better go along with what they say. This is where Judaism went into after rejecting the real God, to one of their own invention, thus taking the place of God, in their own minds. So you have a choice now between Jesus, or a bunch of old men who place themselves over God and dictate the rules they decide on to rule the lives of everyone on the planet.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Do you think God told the rabbis that they could set up a system outside of regular Judaism just for gentiles?

No, but the jews acknowledge that one doesn't need to be a jew to be saved. I dont know if its because they don't care about non-jews and being saved... but I don't see them saying all "convert to our faith or burn in hell". I could be wrong.

Other than that, I don't know about Rabbi's placing themselves over God, but they definitely place themselves over other people and are deluded that only they are entitled to the the original blessings given to Abraham regarding his offspring. According to them, Ishmael and those who Abraham fathered with Keturah have no part in the blessing. This is how their religion has been modified by Rabbis to accommodate zionism and jewish ethnocentrism.

The problem began when Rabbis wrote commentaries based on their own imagination and biases, and when their views and opinions became established as the "correct way".


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, I should have mentioned this in the OP.

Christian doctrine teaches : Jews are Gods chosen people.
The Bible shows : God does not play favorites / Jews are to God as the Ethiopians and Philistines and the Arameans.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

On a side note, I should have mentioned this in the OP.

Christian doctrine teaches : Jews are Gods chosen people.
The Bible shows : God does not play favorites / Jews are to God as the Ethiopians and Philistines and the Arameans.

That's not accurate. We believe there are a natural seed of Abraham via natural birth which has certain covenants with God (land covenant, Davidic covenant) and there is a spiritual seed of Abraham via faith that is entitled to the blessings through Christ (justification, eternal life).

By faith in Christ and through Him we enter into the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic covenants, but becoming a Christian doesn't make us Jews. Even the OT the Moshiyach (Messiah) was prophesied to bring justification to the Gentile nations.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

We believe there are a natural seed of Abraham via natural birth which has certain covenants with God (land covenant, Davidic covenant) and there is a spiritual seed of Abraham via faith that is entitled to the blessings through Christ (justification, eternal life).

Well, what about Ishmael or the "cousins" Abraham fathered through Keturah?They were "natural seeds" of Abraham as well. Regardless of the excuses Christians make, the original promise to Abraham was this....

And I will make of you a great nation, and I wi l l bless you and make your name great , so that you wi l l be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonours you I will curse, and in you all the fami lies of the earth shal l be blessed”
-Genesis 12:2-3) .

Yet, this blessing is interpreted as applying only to one group.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

No, but the jews acknowledge that one doesn't need to . . .

Who, exactly are you talking about when you say "the Jews"?
You need to look into this and report back when you find out, and spell out all the names of these individuals who came to this determination.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Well, what about Ishmael or the "cousins" Abraham fathered . . .

NOTurTypical belongs to an anti-christian cult started by John Nelson Darby, who decided Christianity was wrong and we need to reverse it and to go back to the way it was before Jesus appeared on the scene and messed things up for the Jews.
He rejects the fundamental founding principles of the church as spelled out in the New Testament, in favor of a particular way of interpreting the Old Testament. Under his own system he has adopted, he has removed himself from the promises of God and finds no inheritance or even the right to live on earth.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

We believe there are a natural seed of Abraham via natural birth which has certain covenants with God (land covenant, Davidic covenant) and there is a spiritual seed of Abraham via faith that is entitled to the blessings through Christ (justification, eternal life).

Well, what about Ishmael or the "cousins" Abraham fathered through Keturah?They were "natural seeds" of Abraham as well. Regardless of the excuses Christians make, the original promise to Abraham was this....

And I will make of you a great nation, and I wi l l bless you and make your name great , so that you wi l l be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonours you I will curse, and in you all the fami lies of the earth shal l be blessed”
-Genesis 12:2-3) .

Yet, this blessing is interpreted as applying only to one group.

That's applying to the spiritual seed of Abraham through Christ. What does God say about the son of the flesh and not the promise? The son Abraham decided to father because he and his wife didn't trust that God would give a child to him through Sarah? What does God say about that son in particular? You cannot cherry-pick, that's disingenuous.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Well, what about Ishmael or the "cousins" Abraham fathered . . .

NOTurTypical belongs to an anti-christian cult started by John Nelson Darby, who decided Christianity was wrong and we need to reverse it and to go back to the way it was before Jesus appeared on the scene and messed things up for the Jews.

Absurd, Paul puts that idea to bed in Galatians and the book of Hebrews also discusses people who would go back to the system of Judaism.

He rejects the fundamental founding principles of the church as spelled out in the New Testament, in favor of a particular way of interpreting the Old Testament. Under his own system he has adopted, he has removed himself from the promises of God and finds no inheritance or even the right to live on earth.

I didn't develop anything, you either interpret scripture the Alexandrian way (allegorical) or the Antiochian way (literal).

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Absurd, Paul puts that idea to bed in Galatians and the book of Hebrews also discusses people who would go back to the system of Judaism.

And how does he do that, exactly?

I didn't develop anything, you either interpret scripture the Alexandrian way (allegorical) or the Antiochian way (literal).

You failed to distinguish the parts of my post which dealt with yourself, from the part which was about Darby. If you had developed anything, that would put you ahead of where you are, which is a sheep in the flock of the anti-christian cult.

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Don't sweat it NuT.

I'd say you are one of the handful of true Christians inhabiting this forum.

JMDewey is the one who doesn't know what he's talking about half the time.

Don't worry, I don't sweat anything. If I try to please men I cannot please God. He's the only one I need to worry about.

reply to post by jmdewey60

And how does he do that, exactly?

By telling the Galatians that if they trust the Judaizers and get circumcised and go back to the Law they have fallen from grace. Read the book.

And in the book of Hebrews it says folks who go back to Judaism and the sacrificial system after coming to saving faith in Christ that there no longer remains a sacrifice acceptable to God for their sins in that system. Read the book.

That idea is slapped down in scripture. People do still try and go back under the law, but it's at their own peril.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

If salvation was by works there would have been no need for Christ. . . .
. . . For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

You don't see a bit of irony that you put these two statements in the same post?

God so loved the world that He sent his son.
Jesus said he came to save the world.
The goal is to save the world, and how that is done is through people taking to themselves
the ideals taught by Jesus and receiving the spirit from heaven to carry them out.
An individual being "saved" in the process is a collateral benefit.

edit on 2-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

There is no irony because, in context, those condemned by their words are those who stand before the judgment seat not having been found in the Lambs book of Life. Those that belong to Christ are to come boldly before the throne of grace. He is our mediator, and where there is forgiveness there is no more remembrance of sins.

Dually noted: "Faith without works is dead." "Show me your faith without works and I show you mine by my works." The point being that good works are a product of the faith we have and show all the world exactly where and in whom our faith really resides but without faith, even "good works" are of no effect. Righteousness was imputed unto Abraham because He believed God, and then by works (sacrificing his son) proved that he believed God so as we see, the works themselves do not save us apart from faith. Our belief and faith in God through Jesus Christ is where from the righteousness is imparted, and the good works are merely the fruits of proof.