Originally posted by zeeon
Originally posted by nightbringr
Originally posted by romanmel
reply to post by nightbringr
You continue to use the word "pointless" without stating what exactly the point is. If life has a point then it would follow that that point would
have to exist prior to our existance. To accept predestination is not to exclude free choice. To accept predestination is to say there is a grand
design and that foreknowledge of ones choices does not take away ones right to free will. It merely shows the grand design took into account those
free will choices each of us makes, and implies the designer having foreknowledge of those choices we would make. We see in the present only, so we
have little understanding of what "the point" is.
You dont see the issue? If a "designer" as you put it knows millions or billions of years even before we are born what our ultimate destinies will
be, they are unchangable. After all, if an omnipotent god is infallable, he therefore cannot be wrong. If he cannot be wrong, we are not "free" to
change our destiny.
I suspect either you are a very religious man or simply cannot grasp that basic truth. Please explain to me how someone infallable can know my
actions before i do them, yet i am still free to "change" those actions, thereby excersizing my free will. I bet you cannot.
edit on 21-3-2011 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)
You keep comparing free will to destiny, but the two are not (as would seem at face value) that related. They can indeed exist together. There CAN be
an ultimate end (as there are to all things) but that doesn't necessary demand certain actions by all players involved. Every line has a beginning and
an end. How you get from the beginning to the end is up to you.
There are some basic tenets which YOU have to come terms with. Everybody dies. That is the end of the road. Are you always destined to die? You're
arguing because i'm destined to one day die that I have no free will, but I can garuntee you that I was not forced to write this post. Just because
there is an defined end and beginning doesn't mean I'm forced to walk a certain path between them.
I realize all that. Of course there are things that are "destined" to happen. I know i will die, i know one day our sun will die, i know people will
be born. I know there will be storms and instability in our marketplace.
I dont believe you were "destined" to write this post either, because i do not believe in prophecy. And I would like to believe that if there is a
God, that the one thing he cannot do is see the future. And yes, if there is anyone anywhere who can see the future, then yes, you were destined to
write that article. Most people simply cannot grasp the argument so i will try and explain in more detail. I would suggest reading up on it online
as well. There are lots of discussion groups wrestling with this paradox.
Try and carefully think this through (a lot of this is conjecture but it gets the point across):
There is a god and he is infallible. He is also omnipotent which means he can do ANYTHING, including seeing the future before it happens.
Now this is where it will get tricky for you. If he can see EVERYTHING everyone will ever do on earth, and since he is infallable, he is always
correct. If he is ALWAYS correct, then when i am born, i will always do everything he has foreseen.
Do you understand? My life is planned out. Every single little quantum step, not just my death and birth. He knows who i will marry, who i will
fight with. He knows when i will stub my toe, when i will wake up late for work. EVERYTHING. And i am NOT free to change any of it. If i was free
to do as i pleased, he would not know in advance. If he does not know in advance, he is NOT infallable and prophecy CANNOT exist.
Sorry for all the capitals but i am trying as best i can to make this clear for you.
Now i make this challenge to you. If you believe that i AM free to do what i want, when i want, and prophecy can exist let me put this before you:
God is infallable and knows all about my future before i am born. He knows that i will attend medical school and graduate with straight "A"s.
Please tell me how im "free" to change what an infallable god knows to be true?
If i decided i want to drop out and work at McDonalds, then THAT would be the future he would have seen before it happened. But alas, i cannot, since
i cannot change what an infallable god knows to be true.
Free will and an infallable god in the same universe is a paradox. Please tell me how prophecy is any different? I bet you cannot explain it. In
fact i know you cannot, many, MANY philosophers have wrestled with this over the centuries.
edit on 21-3-2011 by nightbringr because: (no