Why do I see this kind of behavior from Christians often??

Originally posted by freedish
If you are truly of Jesus you won't WANT to sin. Whenever I sin I feel horrible, that is because the Holy Spirit convicts me. Jesus says that when you believe in Him you are born again and then your will becomes His will.

But dude - this is the problem. You say that "Jesus" said. Jesus didn't say. The BIBLE said. That is very relevant and important if you ask me. Not just that, but you are saying it's the Holy Spirit that convicts you. How do you know it's that and not just YOU or YOUR CONSCIOUS? How cool would it be if YOU convicted yourself, and not something that is from a book and supposedly has control over you. Who has the power - you or the so-called "Holy Spirit". Do you see what I am saying??

Originally posted by freedish
That is your opinion. I see a lot of anti christian threads around this board and like i said it's irritating...
And the guy is obviously mocking Christians, he thinks were hypocrites. How is that not mocking? Or at least somewhat insulting... I could find examples of atheists, jews, muslums, agnostics, new age people or any group being hypocrites...it's a human issue not a god issue...

Ok. You got me on that. If he is mocking or insulting, it's literally because HE himself is being insulted via hate mail. He says no more than 5 or so words of his own - it's all read from his hate-mail.

And as far as saying that you can find hypocrites in all religions and non religions? Of course!!! And that's just it! But with Christianity, you are just one-notch higher than everyone else because YOU are going to heaven and everyone else who doesn't fit the caliper is sent to hell FOR ETERNITY. That whole concept is something I haven't even touched upon in this thread, and it would be better if I didn't.

Nothing wrong with erring! But in my opinion, there is indeed something wrong with not taking responsibility for your actions by placing them onto another entity! In this case, Satan!

Originally posted by freedish

Let me ask you a question. Would you get angry if someone was mocking your mother? Or someone you love? Exactly.

Fair enough. But my mother is my mother. I can touch her arm, and I can hug her. I can even talk to her, and when she talks to me, I KNOW IT'S HER TALKING - and not someone or someTHING else!

If you're getting angry because someone is insulting a FEELING you got, then say, "You're insulting something I FEEL strongly about". Why say that I'm insulting your god? You do not know 100% that it is god or whatever. You can be close (99%), but anything higher is a lie. That is why *I* am Agnostic. I will just wait here until I see more proof. There's nothing wrong with using discernment and discretion, right? I mean, we all do have brains.

Originally posted by freedish
Arrogance? Friend I'm super happy for you. Some agnostics/atheists don't even think Jesus was real. So I'm excited that you believe He is real. Maybe you are taking me the wrong way?

Sorry - That came out harsher than intended. But like I said, I don't mean to insult you. I mean to pick at your way of thinking - with the intention of helping and nothing more. That is my INTENT.

Originally posted by freedish
I promise you He is mentioned in many different texts...unless you don't think they're credible, that we can disagree on.

Links please. I would seriously like to know more because I am on the quest for truth and knowledge.

Originally posted by freedish
What...when did I accuse you? christianity isn't a religion in a sense that catholicism or judaism is...it's a relationship with God.

Christianity is filled to the brim with dogma. And also the bible was tampered with (this is known history). How can anyone build a house on a foundation that is weak and tampered with?

Originally posted by freedish
One book that was written by 40 different authors over a span of 5,000 years and is completely inerrant. (i know u disagree with that but I've researched it with a neutral stance and found that it is).

And here's the kicker - coming from me - I believe in certain things in the bible, but I take a totally unconventional view of it.

Ancient Astronaut theory. But that's a different story.

reply to post by impaired


I think kindness and compassion can be instilled in spite of religion or because of it. In the end, we have to decide it for ourselves. I wouldnt personally "attack" anything in regard to such things, but i feel the individuals involved are the ones responsible for their decisions, and beliefs. Being devoid of true kindness and compassion is not relegated to any one group, but applies to humans across the board. I dont like to blame any idealogy for the decisions that individuals make to not be truly kind and compassionate. In the case of christianity, if the core religion (the teachings of jesus) were to make the decision for them, there would be hundreds of millions of truly kind and compassionate people. As we both know, this is just not the case.

Some people are simply "never wrong," it just so happens some of them claim the title of christian.

I also did a significant amount of research into all religions. I decided to personally search for what all the "hubbub" was about. It yielded interesting results.

Originally posted by freedish
So you used to be a Christian, and then you read the bible and found some apparent contradictions. I am curious, what contradictions did you find? I have gone through many atheist arguements (god kills people, human suffering, slavery, crusades...etc.) and honestly none of them hold any ground.

... So i'm curious what contradictions did you find? Maybe I could help?

??!

Oh my goodness. I did NOT just get called an atheist again, did I? Once I again - I believe in a creator, but I don't assume to know about it like others claim to.

God killed plenty. If you read the OT, then you know what I am talking about. You do know what I am talking about, right?

Human suffering. In which context? God creating Satan who temps everyone and those who fall for it go to hell for eternity?
Or the Human suffering when non-christians were burned and tortured?

The Crusades - a FACT.

What contradictions???? What's the point of me going through any more typing if you're just going to have a biased answer anyways?

But I will play the game - but briefly.

Dinosaurs

God all-knowing and powerful? Then why did he need to be obfuscated by a cloud on Sanai? How come no one but Moses could see Yahweh?

How come Yahweh (I will call him/it Yahweh and NOT God anymore) didn't know where Adam and Eve were when they were in the garden and ate the forbidden fruit? Yahweh had to call out to them. That is a direct contradiction to "All knowing", and since Genesis is very vague at that part, promulgating that there was another reason is bollocks because there is simply not enough data in that part of Genesis about that incident.

Cain kills Abel. Yahweh asks, "Where is your brother?"

And I'm only on the 3rd page in Genesis. Do you want to know more contradictions??? Screw contradictions for a minute - how about a show of character about your god Yahweh - who is supposedly Jesus Christ as well?

Exodus and the Egyptian story - Yahweh puts on a show (due to ego). The show is to harden the Pharaoh's heart, go through the drama of creating all of these plagues - just to let the Jewish people go. I'm sure there were easier ways to do this.

But wait! There's more! After Yahweh gets the Jewish people displaced, he has them conquer a new land - slaughtering many people.

Do I seriously need to keep going?

reply to post by sinohptik


At the moment I am very much into "The Law of One" - The Ra Material.

One of it's main components is unconditional forgiveness and love to everyone and everyTHING.

Of course I have huge problems with these things, but it just goes to show how you don't need conventional religions to make you, or to ASPIRE you to be a good person.

Accord to the Law of One, there is no heaven and hell - just karma and reincarnation. Now, knowing that - I still want to do the "right thing"?

Now how can this be possible?

reply to post by impaired


Unconditional forgiveness and love, as you know, are extremely difficult to achieve. Especially on a consistent basis, or when truly tested.

However, i do believe in heaven and hell. Just not after death. That would be too easy anyway, us humans LOVE to procrastinate dont we? I also believe in reincarnation, but not in the traditional sense, and karma... to a degree. In the end, my belief in what is or is not has no relevance to what truly is.

i feel religion can be used to get "there," but is absolutely not necessary. In the end, the important part is to realize the personal journey of it all and feel it all out for oneself. Some can use religion, some can use life itself (as i did). In the end though, we are all just as susceptible to choose the easy path with shiny whizbangs, pops, and clicks with sprinklings of being controlled by hate and anger.

But dude - this is the problem. You say that "Jesus" said. Jesus didn't say. The BIBLE said. That is very relevant and important if you ask me. Not just that, but you are saying it's the Holy Spirit that convicts you. How do you know it's that and not just YOU or YOUR CONSCIOUS? How cool would it be if YOU convicted yourself, and not something that is from a book and supposedly has control over you. Who has the power - you or the so-called "Holy Spirit". Do you see what I am saying??

The New Testament was written by mostly Jesus's disciples who spent years by His side writing down all the things He said. So Yes, He did say it.

The bible says the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and helps us in our daily life. (John 16 Jesus is talking about leaving the earth); for if I do not go away, the helper (holy spirit) will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgement; concerning sin....But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Ok. You got me on that. If he is mocking or insulting, it's literally because HE himself is being insulted via hate mail. He says no more than 5 or so words of his own - it's all read from his hate-mail. And as far as saying that you can find hypocrites in all religions and non religions? Of course!!! And that's just it! But with Christianity, you are just one-notch higher than everyone else because YOU are going to heaven and everyone else who doesn't fit the caliper is sent to hell FOR ETERNITY. That whole concept is something I haven't even touched upon in this thread, and it would be better if I didn't. Nothing wrong with erring! But in my opinion, there is indeed something wrong with not taking responsibility for your actions by placing them onto another entity! In this case, Satan!

I disagree with those people who are insulting him but I understand where their emotions are coming from. They love God and want to defend Him but they are sinning in the way they go about defending God.

When did anyone tell you they are higher or better than you? I am by no means better than you, in fact I WOULD DIE FOR YOU to know Jesus. I'm sorry if any christians have said that they are better than you, they are sinning in doing so. Jesus said that if someone backhands you, turn the other cheek so they have to slap you like an equal.
Yes I am going to heaven and I wish you were going with me. However you will NOT be spending eternity in hell for the bible DOES NOT SAY THAT. Whoever told you that HAS NOT READ THEIR BIBLE. (sorry i'm frustrated again because this is another misconception that is used for fear mongering...sorry)

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

Hell is cast into the lake of fire, so everything inside Hell dies permanently. I'm sorry if you thought you would be spending eternity in Hell, you've been lied to by false teachers. You will be erased from existence.

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 37:20.

perish - 1. To die, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually.

Fair enough. But my mother is my mother. I can touch her arm, and I can hug her. I can even talk to her, and when she talks to me, I KNOW IT'S HER TALKING - and not someone or someTHING else! If you're getting angry because someone is insulting a FEELING you got, then say, "You're insulting something I FEEL strongly about". Why say that I'm insulting your god? You do not know 100% that it is god or whatever. You can be close (99%), but anything higher is a lie. That is why *I* am Agnostic. I will just wait here until I see more proof. There's nothing wrong with using discernment and discretion, right? I mean, we all do have brains.

God speaks through His Word, our thoughts, creation, and circumstances. In rare cases like with moses he can speak audibly.

No, you are insulting my God. I love Him otherwise I would not stand up for Him. He doesn't need me to stand up for Him but I will anyways. And Yes i know 100% it is God. How? Because I pray specific prayers each day and He answers them all the time. It's a personal experience man, He is a personal God....that's why Christians say they want you to grow in a relationship with God. Sometimes I am angry with Him, and sometimes I rebel. What I've found is the more I've got to know Him the less I want to sin and the more I want to be with Him.

I totally understand that you need proof. Man one time I yelled at Him for 2 hours because I was sick of things happening in my life that 'could' be coincidence and I wanted to know for sure that it was Him. That night I had the most amazing dream of my life about Jesus...I felt my spirit being lifted out of my body and when I woke up I had the most amazing peace I've ever felt. He says that if you seek Him with all your heart you will find Him. He does not lie.

Sorry - That came out harsher than intended. But like I said, I don't mean to insult you. I mean to pick at your way of thinking - with the intention of helping and nothing more. That is my INTENT.

No problem... i understand your intent, but there is no possible way you could change my beliefs. I've tried doing life without God, and I've also tried looking at the bible from different perspectives. I've found all the contradictions I possibly could...None of that was enough to get me away from Him.

Links please. I would seriously like to know more because I am on the quest for truth and knowledge.

sure there are a few historians and philosophers who have mentioned Him in texts

Josephus
Tacitus
Suetonius
Julius Africanus
Origen
Pliny the Younge

you can read about them here www.rationalchristianity.net...

Julius Africanus (c. 160 - c. 240) even refers to the worldwide solar eclipse on Jesus's crucifixion date.

Christianity is filled to the brim with dogma. And also the bible was tampered with (this is known history). How can anyone build a house on a foundation that is weak and tampered with?

Really...that i news to me, I highly doubt that, but can you give me a source?

Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by impaired

 

Unconditional forgiveness and love, as you know, are extremely difficult to achieve. Especially on a consistent basis, or when truly tested.

Oh wow, is it... Easier for some than others, but it's still damned hard. I am really digging everything else you are saying, so I will just let it quote itself again.

Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by impaired

 

However, i do believe in heaven and hell. Just not after death. That would be too easy anyway, us humans LOVE to procrastinate dont we?

I also believe in reincarnation, but not in the traditional sense, and karma... to a degree. In the end, my belief in what is or is not has no relevance to what truly is.

i feel religion can be used to get "there," but is absolutely not necessary. In the end, the important part is to realize the personal journey of it all and feel it all out for oneself. Some can use religion, some can use life itself (as i did). In the end though, we are all just as susceptible to choose the easy path with shiny whizbangs, pops, and clicks with sprinklings of being controlled by hate and anger.

Oh my goodness. I did NOT just get called an atheist again, did I? Once I again - I believe in a creator, but I don't assume to know about it like others claim to.

sorry my mistake.

God killed plenty. If you read the OT, then you know what I am talking about. You do know what I am talking about, right?

He told us when we ate the apple we would die. So to say God kills people is off. We chose death when we ate from the tree of death.

The Crusades - a FACT.

Yup. No doubt about that. But who ordered the crusades, God or man?

Dinosaurs

What about them?

God all-knowing and powerful? Then why did he need to be obfuscated by a cloud on Sanai? How come no one but Moses could see Yahweh?

God is all powerful and holy and He cannot be in the presence of sin. The Jews even told Moses that they were too afraid to go on the mountain because they would die. Moses was able to go up because the Bible says He was a righteous man and He didn't have sin on Him.

How come Yahweh (I will call him/it Yahweh and NOT God anymore) didn't know where Adam and Eve were when they were in the garden and ate the forbidden fruit? Yahweh had to call out to them.

Good question. Maybe God was letting them know that He wanted to see them.

Cain kills Abel. Yahweh asks, "Where is your brother?"

God knew what had happened, but He still wanted to give Cain a chance to explain himself. God loves us.

Exodus and the Egyptian story - Yahweh puts on a show (due to ego). The show is to harden the Pharaoh's heart, go through the drama of creating all of these plagues - just to let the Jewish people go. I'm sure there were easier ways to do this.

But wait! There's more! After Yahweh gets the Jewish people displaced, he has them conquer a new land - slaughtering many people.

You have a lot of good questions...and I really wish I had more time to answer them. I promise you there are perfect and just answers to every one of your questions...you could ask google and try to figure it out yourself...or you could just ask the big guy why He did that stuff. I'm sure he'll explain it

Originally posted by freedish


Sorry if this is a 'typical christian memorized answer' (whatever) but it's really not a religion man. It's a relationship. How would you like to have God living inside of you communicating to you everyday, and getting to know who He truly is. Man you could go your whole life without going to church and you'd still get into heaven...because it's not about what you do ...its about what Jesus did.

Therein lies the conundrum.

The Bible clearly states that "God" is omnipotent and omnipresent.

Omnipresence means that it is EVERYWHERE. Every square inch of the universe is occupied by "God". By definition.

So you asking me "How would you like to have God living inside of you" is kind of absurd.

God already lives inside of me and inside of all things.

And the Bible also clearly indicates that "Heaven" is the sky above us (outer space). It's not some mystical make believe place in your mind. It's wide open outer space.

That's why I don't take religion seriously, because 99% of people do not even bother to read or think about it. Yet they will go around preaching it. Even though they don't realize the ultimate points of what they just read.

reply to post by freedish


Contradictions? Compare the claims of fulfilled prophecies in the Gospels to the old testament, a lot of them are either quote-mines, fabrications, or distortions. Or just compare the lists of the Apostles named in each gospel, there are differences. Or look at the time where Jesus quotes the 10 commandments...with a commandment that doesn't exist. Or his statement that a generation wouldn't pass before his prophecies came to pass...and we're what...a few hundred generations later?

Or look at the story of Exodus. Look at how often all the livestock die. It's like Yahweh keeps bringing them back to life after each plague that kills them.

reply to post by impaired

Oh my goodness. I did NOT just get called an atheist again, did I? Once I again - I believe in a creator, but I don't assume to know about it like others claim to.

Howdy agnostic theist! I'm an agnostic atheist myself.

I know how hard it can be for people to mislabel individuals. Anyone who isn't a specific sort of Christian on here gets labelled as an outsider. Hell, even we atheists get labelled as gnostic atheists rather than agnostic atheists. I don't think there's a single gnostic atheist on ATS.

Hell, Benevolent Heretic is an atheist who believes in spirits and possibly an afterlife. Just not any deity. But I guess we all have to conform to the popular conceptions of what people who aren't specific gnostic theists are.

Atheists feel the need to dispute God in public because their views are progressive and support the evolution (pardon the pun) of humanity, Religion is seen as an enemy of social reform and logic and so must be removed if we are to continue bettering ourselves and ascending to a higher order of thought.

Originally posted by impaired
Why do I see this kind of behavior from Christians often??,

For the same reason we see atheists attacking Christians, or Christians attacking Muslims, or people attacking people they disagree with. The moment we become Christian we don't lose our humanity. We are all human and and are capable of acting in human ways. I'm not proud when I lose my temper, but it happens. We are all sinners....

I think that they say things like this to Dawkins because he is one of the most arrogant people on the face of the planet. His attitudes sicken me as much as the most hateful of fundamental Christians.

Sinners ..that we are. I think what people find so hard to believe in the Bible is the Love of God. We read about all these murders where millions are killed for being sinners.And so where is the love? If God loves us all, then why was He so quick to kill these people and choose one race of people over all others? Why was he leading these people for 40 years to destroy man, woman and child in other territories?
God is God..right? Well..the way I see it..if God wanted to have humans banished from the face of the Earth..why kill every one in a flood..babies included..right? Being a powerful being who has the power to create an Universe that is so magnificent and vast, and filled with wonder. then could He not just snap his fingers and begone with humans and start over?
The Old Testament is filled with God's anger toward his creation and toward other races and He even has anger toward his Chosen at times. These things will always be debated. We don't have the ability to love one and all and in the Bible, the writers shows that neither did God. It seems that there is a piece of information missing.

reply to post by freedish

Here's some food for thought: If God doesn't exist, then why do you care about disproving Him?

As there is no proof that a god exists then there is nothing to disprove

seriously think about this... If everyone believes that a pink flying unicorn ruled Saturn you wouldn't spend anytime trying to debunk that or even debate it. You wouldn't even care. You would just ignore it because it's ridiculous.

Indeed, as ridiculous as a man living inside a fish, or a god killing himself to try and get its' creation to cooperate Nevertheless The supporters of the Pink Flying Unicorn don't instruct homosexuals or naughty boys to be put to death, neither do they demand that slaves be beaten in a certain way.
Indeed the supporters of The Pink Flying Unicorn don't stalk my children every-time my back is turned in order to brainwash them into joining their cult.

I just simply don't care...

So why bother entering the discussion ?


Think about it...

reply to post by freedish

Moses was able to go up because the Bible says He was a righteous man and He didn't have sin on Him.

Sorry to be picky but Moses is alleged to have gone "in" the mountain.

Personally I find nothing righteous out a murderer on the run that would instruct the slaying of thousands of people without the even the benefit of a fair trial.

Fortunately there is no evidence that the murdering bastard even existed let alone wandered the desert for 40 yeasrs with up to 2 million runaway slaves.

Originally posted by Bendii
Sinners ..that we are. I think what people find so hard to believe in the Bible is the Love of God. We read about all these murders where millions are killed for being sinners.And so where is the love? If God loves us all, then why was He so quick to kill these people and choose one race of people over all others? Why was he leading these people for 40 years to destroy man, woman and child in other territories?
God is God..right? Well..the way I see it..if God wanted to have humans banished from the face of the Earth..why kill every one in a flood..babies included..right? Being a powerful being who has the power to create an Universe that is so magnificent and vast, and filled with wonder. then could He not just snap his fingers and begone with humans and start over?
The Old Testament is filled with God's anger toward his creation and toward other races and He even has anger toward his Chosen at times. These things will always be debated. We don't have the ability to love one and all and in the Bible, the writers shows that neither did God. It seems that there is a piece of information missing.

How can a perfect being be angry?? These are the things I'm talking about.

Apparent contradictions. And that's just one.

Instead of taking the fast food (religion), I would rather find and cook my own food. The analogy is that I would rather put in the "footwork" of learning than to just take a book a face value.

reply to post by kinglizard

The moment we become Christian we don't lose our humanity.

But you immediately agree to suspend critical thinking in favor of credulity and align yourself with men who openly encourage misogyny ,bigotry, slavery, and genocide etc. The men in question being the writers of this abhorrent book -

reply to post by impaired

Jesus is mentioned quite a few time in the Holy Qur'an. As a righteous prophet, his birth, as a messenger to Israel and other passages. too.