"I have gay friends, but..." Umm... No, you don't...

Originally posted by mydarkpassenger

Originally posted by Funshinez
Attention red blooded meat eating straight men: Every #ing day of your lives is your pride parade.

I'm a red-blooded meat-eating straight guy and a veteran, who also supports the rights of GLBT people to equal treatment under the law. My pride parade is July 4th, and veterans day.

This isn't a gay vs straight argument; it's a rights of human beings argument against those who will not see. If a man or woman is good enough to wear the uniform and place themselves in harms way, they are good enough to serve without having to hide and lie about their lives off duty.

Outstanding sir. Semper Fi I say and I salute you for this stance. When people are treated inhumane because of there sexual orientation, race, creed, religion or origin then that means we are all flawed. When most of us can look past the things that do not truly define us and empower the things we do that do define us such as being good to our fellow men and women then we are a step ahead.

On a side note, I would like to thank everyone for the great discussions today. It has been great and enlightening. I wish you all a happy and safe seasons greetings.

reply to post by Annee


Choice is not always visible as available. Somebody who steps on the cracks of a side walk because of ADD always has a choice not to and avoid that pattern. Yet they think they were born with the need to, so they do not try to change it.

My views on gays comes from being friends with one for 4 years, and being in an all boys school for some time with a number of outies and closets.

Yes, there is no such thing as a gay culture of mentality. For example, I hate "girly men". The ones that define the whole "gayness". The accent, the clothes, the "sexual patriotism". I never understood the point to sexual patriotism. What the hell does it mean to be prideful or patriotic to which hole you use? That's like being patriotic to my daily poop. Waving flags of 5 pm. Parading down city hall with a large toilet and the sacrificial throwing of the turd into the ocean. Does this make any sense? Well it gay pride and parades make just as much sense to me.

The fact is that all humans are, at their conception, a bunch of genes. Various processes make different protein sequences and other chemicals so that there are strengths and weaknesses in many different places. As the subject develops to puberty, these chemicals, especially sexual ones, explode in production. Because the body says, it's time to decide what the hell you are doing with your life. Now I don't know about you, but my first crush on a girl was in freaking K grade. Clearly long before any elements of puberty. What caused this? She looked like someone from a movie. So my mind associated that as important. Pretty lame reason why, but I was only 7 or something. That right there probably caused the first spark of chemistry that would be accelerated in puberty. Blah blah blah, during puberty I decided that lust and love, as well as emotions themselves, have no importance to a logical brain seeking knowledge. So I cut them out. Deleted the thoughts. I chose to be asexual. And the body listened. It shut it down. For the longest time, love did not exist as a mental process. Then when I got older, I decided that the time had come to begin indexing what was "pretty". What was good. I'd been taught males and females are equals and join to become a single family. So I told my brain to being indexing traits and decide what did I think as pretty in girls, and what did I think as ugly. What do these term even mean? Do they have any real meaning. Again, from an early age I decided something. The phrase I heard that best describes it is that "nothing is true, and everything is permitted." from a video game none the less. So thus I have treated my brain as a computer to be programmed. Anywho, eventually my mind came to a consensus of what I thought attractive in a woman. As a side note, these processes expanded. They decided to also decide what is attractive in a man. WTF you may ask. Because last I checked, that was wrong. But I did not think anything of it. So I let the processes continue. Just for the sake of seeing what my brain would deduce. Now because I had more or less turned off lustful thoughts at this age, these were thoughts purely artistic. Not gay. Not straight. Just posing the question of what my instinct said was good and bad as traits. I cannot say that the processes ever ceased. Just became unimportant once enough data was collected. Low and behold, after 4-5 years of thought, indexing, collection of data, and thinking, my mind came to a consensus of what was desirable. From nothing more than a physical appearance context. Now I was raised to look for and educated self determined religious girl, so that question never had to be searched for nor indexed. It was a defined term.

Thus my brain came to the conclusion. I never bothered with thinking about anything sexual until I decided it was time to begin thinking about such things.

So yea. That is why, from what I can see, it is a choice. Now maybe most people don't give a crap about this kind of ultra-computerized training for a brain, but I did. And that was what I have seen from looking at biology and from looking at people around me. Gayness is simply a confusion, via chemical sources, or from thought processes. Basically, not regulating the mind enough. Like I said. We are all gay to some degree, for the reason I listed before. It's simple fact. People judge. And when a man judges another man to look beautiful or ugly, it's no different a thought process that homosexuality. People simply chose, to associate sexual desire to physical desires all to often. And for that reason, people sleep around a lot too, irregardless of sexuality.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


I have friends of every race, color, religion, creed etc. My belief is that I am no better than they are and if I for one second should ever cross a line where I think I am better well may GOD smack me right across the face. PEACE and Merry Christmas to all...

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Annee

 

Choice is not always visible as available. Somebody who steps on the cracks of a side walk because of ADD always has a choice not to and avoid that pattern. Yet they think they were born with the need to, so they do not try to change it.

My daughter was an ADD.

Look - - we are not going to agree. As I said I don't do "ping pong" posting.

In other words - - if I'm not on the same mind sync as someone - - there isn't going to be any reasonable discussion. Its just going to be hammering back and forth at each other - "ping pong".

I don't do it.

reply to post by mydarkpassenger


Time will tell, we shall see.
Seeashrink

I have a specific former friend who does this. "I'm bffls with gay people, but.." right before she says she doesn't believe they should be married or have the same rights as real people. But she's "very accepting of their lifestyle"

She told me she had gay friends, so I came out to her. Her and her family had a meeting to talk about my sins. Her brother told me the next day at school because she never spoke to me again.

Hate when people do stuff like that... you can say whatever you want, but if you DON'T have gay friends, you shouldn't be saying you do...

Yeah...

So that's the gist of this? Attack me on my word count? (I'm a writer, it's what I do naturally.) Discount every personal experience I or others have had because it doesn't fit into your reality? Refuse to accept that MOST gays DO have traumatic experiences in their past, or a lack of proper parental love? (Or maybe this is too personal to admit to - not sure I would either if roles were reversed.) Insult my Avatar, for pete's sake? Discredit every possible source that supports what I or others have experienced as our reality, simply because it stems from a religious perspective? Accuse ME of being gay? This is why straight people don't like talking about this with gay folks. The arguments are circular in nature, since gays rely on straights to provide the proof, yet discredit everything that comes out unless it supports their lifestyle. That's messed up. There is no way to have a decent conversation about this without tantrums being thrown and people hitting below the belt. How will we ever understand each other if this is how we will continue to talk? It won't happen. I clearly have questions and human concerns that NO ONE has adequately answered or proven concretely. I concede that there are just as many websites supporting the gay issue as there are supporting the views that homosexuality can be changed.

I have never judged, because I think none of us are perfect. I don't hate. I love everyone - but I don't love what everyone chooses to do with their lives. I simply have a view that is based on things gays don't agree with. Ex-gays agree with them, current gays do not. So we will never see eye to eye. Does that mean I think you're a bad person? Heck no. But clearly, my honesty is not allowed without being accused of being "wrong". AM I wrong? Fine...prove it. The difference between us is that I could be friends with you despite your beliefs, since I don't think "gay" defines the spirit of who you are inside - you, on the other hand, would have no tolerance for me. My love is unconditional....yours is not, in which case, isn't love at all.

Here's the bottom line....the burden of proof lies on YOU, not me. Prove yourselves to be what you say you are, genetically, and all this will be a lot easier for all of us, rather than going back and forth, attempting to have an intelligent conversation with someone who keeps flinging adolescent insults. I've stated my case numerous times, and this point keeps getting glazed over in favor of typical gay insults, which only clouds the issue with emotional responses, not based on facts.

Every gay says, "If this were a choice, then why on earth would we choose to live this kind of life?" I'd ask the same question in a different way. If you didn't ENJOY your life, then why are you complaining so much about what the rest of think? Why do our opinions matter? If your life is THAT bad, then why not seek all the options of "what if"? WHAT IF I am right? WHAT IF your brain is the only thing between choosing someone of the same sex and choosing someone of the opposite sex? What if....that's all I'm asserting. I'm open to changing my views....are you open to changing yours?

Peace.

Originally posted by Gseven
So that's the gist of this? Attack me on my word count? (I'm a writer, it's what I do naturally.) Discount every personal experience I or others have had because it doesn't fit into your reality?

Oh excuse me. So non-writers don't have an opinion?

The only opinion that matters is a word lover?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Gseven
So that's the gist of this? Attack me on my word count? (I'm a writer, it's what I do naturally.) Discount every personal experience I or others have had because it doesn't fit into your reality?

Oh excuse me. So non-writers don't have an opinion?

The only opinion that matters is a word lover?

I think you're an angry person who just likes to argue. I never said non-writers don't have an opinion. And yes, I love words. I don't consider that an insult.

Peace Annee...have a wonderful holiday! I think we've kicked the dead horse enough, don't you?

reply to post by Gseven


You have a world view based on your own perspective. OK, fine, you are entitled to that.

I don't understand why you insist a gay person must offer you genetic proof of what they are or how they may feel, it merely is what they are and how they feel. You need not agree. Still, I wonder why you must foist your own sense of morality on them especially if you would consider yourself an aware and intelligent being.

Please, just accept that people are different and whether or not you feel the have made a choice and just accept that choice and wish them all the happiness in the world. Consider it your moral obligation to not stand in their way.

I am really at a loss as to why some people feel other persons gay lifestyle is an infringement on theirs.

I support same-sex marriage for gay couples or even for heterosexual friends who may wish to set up housekeeping and be legally recognized as "family" for matters of medical consent, visitation, or chain of custody for their belongings. Marriage is not simply an arrangement for creating children. I am heterosexual but have chosen not to have children, and nobody denies me the right to be married.

Marriage is a civil contract for two persons to enter into a domestic partnership and it grants them certain legal rights. Those legal rights are desireable regardless of gender.

Originally posted by Gseven

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Gseven
So that's the gist of this? Attack me on my word count? (I'm a writer, it's what I do naturally.) Discount every personal experience I or others have had because it doesn't fit into your reality?

Oh excuse me. So non-writers don't have an opinion?

The only opinion that matters is a word lover?

I think you're an angry person who just likes to argue.

I never said non-writers don't have an opinion. And yes, I love words. I don't consider that an insult.

Peace Annee...have a wonderful holiday! I think we've kicked the dead horse enough, don't you?

No - you are wrong.

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro
reply to post by Gseven

 

You have a world view based on your own perspective. OK, fine, you are entitles to that.

I don't understand why you insist a gay person must offer you genetic proof of what they are or how they may feel, it merely is what they are and how they feel. You need not agree. Still, I wonder why you must foist your own sense of morality on them especially of you would consider yourself an aware and intelligent being.

Please, just accept that people are different and whether or not you feel the have made a choice and just accept that choice and wish them all the happiness in the world. Consider it your moral obligation to not stand in their way.

I am really at a loss as to why some people feel other persons gay lifestyle is an infringement on theirs.

I support same-sex marriage for gay couples or even for heterosexual friends who may wish to set up housekeeping and be legally recognized as "family" for matters of medical consent, visitation, or chain of custody for their belongings. Marriage is not simply an arrangement for creating children. I am heterosexual but have chosen not to have children, and nobody denies me the right to be married.

Marriage is a civil contract for two persons to enter into a domestic partnership and it grants them certain legal rights. Those legal right are desireable regardless of gender.

But see, that's the problem. It's not just about tolerating differences. We've done that. Now it's not enough, and more and more demands are being made that are altering the political moral foundation in which the rest of us function...whether gays agree with it or not, matters not. What you're not understanding is that gays are insisting the rest of us change our spiritual views, and for what? Because they SAID so? No proof? So, the paradox is that spirituality and homosexuality will never be lovers....ever. Yes, I'm going to need a little more evidence before I buy into the gay genetics. It's not that hard, but sure would solve a lot of problems for all of us. I don't think it's too much to ask.

reply to post by Gseven


I realize I am asking a lot. I AM asking religious and spiritual people all over the world to change one important aspect of their spiritual views. I am asking them to accept TOLERANCE.

reply to post by Gseven


So - - have you ever gone and hung out with a Gay Group or a Gay Rights Group? Have you ever spent time getting to know a Gay couple family? Have you ever spent time with a Gay teen who's been bullied?

I've got at least 30 years of being involved in one Christian faith or another. So I do know where you are coming from. I just 100% disagree with where you are coming from.

Belief is a Choice.

Gay is a birthright.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Gseven

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Gseven
So that's the gist of this? Attack me on my word count? (I'm a writer, it's what I do naturally.) Discount every personal experience I or others have had because it doesn't fit into your reality?

Oh excuse me. So non-writers don't have an opinion?

The only opinion that matters is a word lover?

I think you're an angry person who just likes to argue.

I never said non-writers don't have an opinion. And yes, I love words. I don't consider that an insult.

Peace Annee...have a wonderful holiday! I think we've kicked the dead horse enough, don't you?

No - you are wrong.

You non-word lover, you. You can't fool me....I think you do have a sense of humor about all this.

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro
reply to post by Gseven

 

I realize I am asking a lot. I AM asking religious and spiritual people all over the world to change one important aspect of their spiritual views. I am asking them to accept TOLERANCE.

And therein lies the meat and potatoes of why this is such an issue. It's not just about tolerance, since our political system and religious systems are changing due to constant demands being made. Can you see that it goes above and beyond simple tolerance?

If marriage is not compatible with a gay couple's lifestyle then perhaps marrigae has become an outmoded, outdated concept. If a gay couple must be asked to accept a civil partnership because it is "basically" the same thing then we should discontinue the practice of marriage and ask heterosexual partners to join themselves under that same type of partnership.

Originally posted by Gseven

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Gseven

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Gseven
So that's the gist of this? Attack me on my word count? (I'm a writer, it's what I do naturally.) Discount every personal experience I or others have had because it doesn't fit into your reality?

Oh excuse me. So non-writers don't have an opinion?

The only opinion that matters is a word lover?

I think you're an angry person who just likes to argue.

I never said non-writers don't have an opinion. And yes, I love words. I don't consider that an insult.

Peace Annee...have a wonderful holiday! I think we've kicked the dead horse enough, don't you?

No - you are wrong.

You non-word lover, you. You can't fool me....I think you do have a sense of humor about all this.

About the word usage - yes.

About Equal Rights - NO!

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro
If marriage is not compatible with a gay couple's lifestyle then perhaps marrigae has become an outmoded, outdated concept. If a gay couple must be asked to accept a civil partnership because it is "basically" the same thing then we should discontinue the practice of marriage and ask heterosexual partners to join themselves under that same type of partnership.

I can concede to that. Honestly, I think the legal system needs to butt out of marriage all together, but because of divorce and all the personal properties involved, the laws keep getting longer and longer. By it's very nature, it has excluded gays. Personally, I have always felt that marriage was a contract between two people and God....that's it. Merely a promise made on nothing more than a vow, an exchange of rings and a kiss. I have always, and will continue, to support people's rights to live their lives as they choose - no judgment there. This includes civil unions and whatever. It's when the gay lifestyle becomes the focus in work situations or anything else that should otherwise have nothing to do with someone's personal life that bugs the living daylights out of me. I'm sure this can be understood if we all back up and take a deep breath. I think straights are just tired of hearing it all the time. The "pride" rants get annoying, regardless of which minority group it comes from. Just live and let live, and seek to be the best person you can be. That's it. It seems with each "victory" on the gay political front, we get inundated with the "in your face you homophobic bigots" ugliness that makes us feel like "what the heck?" Nobody likes being accused of something they're not, and thus starts the ugly cycle that never ends.

reply to post by Annee



Annee, we must resign ourselves to knowing that staunchly religious folks will never become spiritually enlightened beings, not in this lifetime anyway. We must continue our agenda with or without their consent or blessings.