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"I have gay friends, but..." Umm... No, you don't...

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posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:50 AM
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reply to post by joechip
 



I had to read some of your previous posts to understand where you are coming from, only because your response here seemed to be in agreement with my opinion but I just wasn't sure. I thinks so though.

BTW, did you get your can of UBIK spray from the Tijuana Fur and Dye Store? Oddly enough, their products are hard to find here in Mexico.




posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:54 AM
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Explain something to me.

Why are we arguing about this?

No one is going to understand fully about someone elses lifestyle unless they are in their shoes.

If you have always been gay, you aren't going to understand the viewpoint of a straight person.

A straight person is not going to fully understand the point a a homosexual.

For example, I am gay. So I dont understand why a straight person cant understand that I did not choose my lifestyle. It just always has been.

But I am not arguing because their is no point except for peoples viewpoints. And that is it.

You all can argue about what is right and what is wrong, what is moral what is not moral, but no one is going to get through to anyone because most of us are deadset on who we are, straight or gay.

That is all I have. I am not arguing.

Capgirl



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:55 AM
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reply to post by PJAmerica
 



Not my place to say what is right or wrong for others so long as they do not impose there way of life upon mine.


Exactly how gay people feel. Unfortunately we are frequently accosted by churches, governments and a good many biggots who would tell us what to do and force us to be straight, or kill us, if they could.

Whilst I don't think you straight people actually ever have that problem, of gay people trying to change you from straight to gay, I do like your sentiment. I wish more of you would apply that to us in turn.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:06 AM
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People Can Change


Survey on Root Causes

In 2004, People Can Change surveyed the members of its online support groups to determine what they perceived to have been the most significant causes of their developing homosexual feelings in their own lives. We asked about 25 possible factors -- everything from biology to personal choice. More than 200 men responded. (Keep in mind that this is not a survey of the beliefs of the general "gay" population -- those who have accepted a gay identity and are happy in that life. Rather, it is a survey of the beliefs of those who are seeking to overcome or minimize homosexual desires. Gays may or may not answer these questions differently.)

1. Father-son relationship problems: In the survey, 97% said problems in the father-son relationship while they were growing up contributed to their developing same-sex attractions (SSA) -- and men usually identified it as one of the three most significant factors. (See especially page 6 of the survey.)

It seems very rare for a man who struggles with homosexuality to feel that he was sufficiently loved, affirmed and mentored by his father growing up, or that he identified with his father as a male role model. Oftentimes the father-son relationship is marked by either actual or perceived abandonment, extended absence, hostility or disinterest (a form of abandonment).

Like all human experience, this is not universal, and sometimes the father-son relationship doesn't seem to have been a problem. Rather, the relationship with brothers or male peers or male abusers may have created deep wounding. Whatever the source of the estrangement, it is a common experience for many of us to have felt a deep longing to be held, to be loved by a father figure, to be mentored into the world of men and to have our masculine natures affirmed by other men.

2. Conflict with male peers: The same percentage of men who said father-son problems contributed to their SSA -- 97% -- also said problems in their male-peer relationships contributed. And half said it was one of the "top three" factors. (See especially page 7 of the survey.)

Somehow, even as boys or young teenagers, we felt like we were never "man enough." We felt like we didn't live up to the masculine ideal. We saw ourselves as too fat or too skinny, too short or too awkward, not athletic enough or tough or strong or good-looking enough -- or whatever other qualities we admired in other males but judged to be lacking in ourselves. It was more than low self-esteem, it was low gender esteem -- a deficiency in our core sense of gender upon which our whole self image is built. Other males just seemed naturally masculine, but masculinity never came naturally to us. We aspired to it but were mystified by how to achieve it. Among other males, we felt different and lonely.

Feeling deficient as males, we pined to be accepted and affirmed by others, especially those whose masculinity we admired most. We began to idolize the qualities in other males that we judged to be lacking in ourselves. Idolizing them widened the gulf we imagined between ourselves and so-called "real men." In idolizing them, we increased our sense of our own masculine deficiency.

At the same time that we idolized certain male traits or maleness generally, many of us came to fear other boys and men. Born with unusually sensitive and gentle personalities, we found it was easy for many of us to feel different from and rejected by our more rough-and-tumble peers growing up. We came to fear their taunts and felt like we could never belong. Many of us feared the sports field and felt like we could never compete. Many of us felt rejected by our fathers and feared that we could never measure up or would never really matter to them. So where did this leave us, as males ourselves? It left us in a Neverland of gender confusion, not fully masculine but not really feminine either. We had disassociated not just from individual men we feared would hurt us, but from the entire heterosexual male world. Some of us even detached from our very masculinity as something shameful and inferior.

3. Mother-son relationships (and the "smothering mother" syndrome): Nine out of 10 survey respondents said aspects of their relationships with their mothers contributed to their SSA. (See especially page 8 of the survey.)

Even as we perceived our fathers as abandoning, ignoring or being hostile toward us, it was a common experience for us to over-identify with or become overly dependent on our mothers. Oftentimes, we never fully cut the "apron strings" that attached our identity to hers. Mom often became our confidant and mentor instead of Dad. But Mom could never show us how to act and think like a man. So it was common for us to view maleness from a woman's perspective instead of a man's. We inadvertently adopted a woman's view of the world. The gulf between us and the world of men was widened and reinforced.

Feeling alienated from the male world, we often found comfort in female companionship. Some of us labeled women and femininity as superior to men and masculinity because we perceived females as more sensitive, accepting and loving. They felt "safer" to be with and to expose our painful emotions to. Instead of ridiculing our sensitive natures, they appreciated them. They didn't expect us to prove we were "man enough," even while we were still just boys. Many of us learned to identify with women and girls as our sisters, our buddies and, inadvertently, even our role models. Our sense of girls as the "same sex" and boys as the "opposite" sex was reinforced.

4. Sexual abuse: 48% of respondents said that, as children or youth, they had been sexually abused by an older or more powerful person. Usually it was by a male, and in those cases, 96% considered the abuse to have contributed to their developing SSA feelings. (See especially pages 8 and 9 of the survey.)

5. Other sexual experiences: 93% said they had had other sexual experiences -- including pornography, sexual fantasy and sex play with other boys -- as children or youth, and of those who did, 93% said they believed these experiences contributed to their SSA feelings. (See especially page 9 of the survey.)

6. Personality traits: 87% said they believed their personality traits were a contributing factor. (See especially page 10 of the survey.)

A great many of us were born with or developed an innate sensitivity and emotional intensity that we learned could be both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, our sensitivity caused us to be more loving, gentle, kind and oftentimes spiritually inclined than average.

On the other hand, these were some of the very traits that caused our more rough-and-tumble male peers to taunt us, girls to welcome us into their inner circles, moms to hold onto us more protectively, and dads to distance themselves from us. Perhaps even more problematic, it created within us a thin-skinned susceptibility to feeling hurt and rejected, thus magnifying many times over whatever actual rejection and offense we might have received at the hands of others. Our perception became our reality. Homosexual Consequences These and other hurts were oftentimes the problems buried below the surface. Complex, interwoven and painful, they drove us to homosexual relationships in an attempt to find healing. But we found that, for us, acting on these homosexual desires actually worsened rather than lessened the underlying problems. Homosexuality, for us, wasn't the solution; it was an escape from solving the real problems that had caused the symptoms to begin with. Time alone could never really heal these kinds of deep wounds without our going back to face them, acknowledge them, grieve them, release our legitimate anger over them, take steps to repair the damage they had caused us (to the extent we could), and finally, to forgive and move on.



There are so many websites with countless stories, studies, and information. I can't possibly list them all, nor will I try. Yes, most may be religiously based, but so what? Not all are, though, I might add. It doesn't invalidate the fact that transformation is happening, regardless of the reason. People find God, they choose a particular group that caters to their specific needs, and they go through that program....or they just feel unfulfilled, unhappy, and they decide to go and discover the real reasons that drive them to be attracted to someone of the same sex.

But one thing is certain....if denial is there, there is no point in debating this. If you're gay and reading this, insisting that you lead a very happy and fulfilled life, then good on ya! Go be happy, this post isn't for you. For the vast majority of others, their homosexuality stems from one or more of the above causes. Does this make me a bigot, or does it make me someone who cares and sees that there is a real cause and equally a real cure? But someone can't be helped if they don't feel they need it, so for those who will continue to insist they don't need it and are completely fulfilled and happy, there's nothing more I have to say. I have yet to meet a happy gay, or one that hasn't come from a broken home. All the ones I know struggle with depression, severe negativity in their outlook in life, and a whole host of other problems.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Sinnthia
 


Since we are talkiong about things we cannot choose I thought I may as well have brought that up. Just because you can't choose your sexuality doesn't mean it's automatically justified.


Well I am still waiting for you to explain how it is relevant to the discussion any more than moon rocks are. Again I will ask, what is your point?

I am just a tad confused as to how you correlate the sexual orientation of anyone with taking advantage of a child.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:14 AM
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And furthermore....I am upset that I can't look my friends in the eyes when they are experiencing so much heartache, and tell them what I think the root of their problems come from. Perhaps I can encourage them to go to counseling to talk about past traumas, but as far as I see, their homosexuality is a huge festering sore in their lives, which have done nothing but infect the deeper wound that was already there. It does hurt me that I feel so gagged and helpless. Maybe that's why I'm so outspoken here, because I know this would never fly in real life.

It's just as frustrating for heteros to not be allowed to state the obvious sometimes, as it is for gays to feel like they are continually having to defend their lifestyles.
edit on 25-12-2010 by Gseven because: content



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by Sinnthia
 


I just explained the point dude. So what if it's not a choice?



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by PJAmerica
 



Not my place to say what is right or wrong for others so long as they do not impose there way of life upon mine.


Exactly how gay people feel.


What is funny is it exactly how many straight people feel but MEN do not seem to get this. All these men are absolutely disgusted by the idea of some MAN hitting on them. What they do not seem to understand is that is exactly how us straight women feel every time one of these little Danny Devito looking trolls hits on us. I do not go around saying that it is wrong to be ugly, I just put up with being hit on by ugly men. I guess I find it really odd that women have to put up with it but apparently straight men are terrified of it happening to them.
Men can be such little girls about some things.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by Sinnthia

Originally posted by Phenomium

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by rickyrrr
 


Or maybe the male-to-female mice ratio was so disproportionate that male mice had to find partners of the same sex. Kind of does relate to humanity's current situation: as the number of women who become more career-focused and less interested in relationships with men, the more men are turning to other men for the needs they are not receiving.


Again, more feminist destruction across America. They are destroying families and relationships, and forcing men to make irrational descisions because of their own selfishness.


I assumed that was edited out so that no one would then ask that it be backed up by say...ANYTHING AT ALL. Since you bring it back to life, care you back any of that up?

I want to know what I have not been hearing about where all these women are choosing jobs over mating and forcing men to make gay choices. What country is this happening in?



Women choosing careers over love

Women not understanding the difference between Mysandry and Feminism..men turning gay.

...for starters



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by Gseven
There are so many websites with countless stories, studies, and information. I can't possibly list them all, nor will I try.


All we need is ONE.

Just ONE single credible source that shows that you can quit being gay. You are going to want to steer clear of many of those religious ones as many of the leaders of those groups have since been caught in gat trysts.

So yes, just one CREDIBLE source with FACTS. Yes, I looked at the source you already offered and I still ask if you have one that is credible with facts?



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by Gseven
And furthermore....I am upset that I can't look my friends in the eyes when they are experiencing so much heartache, and tell them what I think the root of their problems come from


Furthermore, for every annecdote you can dig up about some in the closet now married Christian, I can show you an "ex gay" that killed themself after going through that gay reformation therapy crap. Yes, the idea made so popular by Ted Haggard, or was it his current boyfriend? Anyway, the American Psychiatric Association says that gay reformation therapy does more harm that good. So weight the risks and tell your "friend" what your heart tells you to. Just be prepared to live with the outcome.

I would suggest that if your friends are depressed and you think they are depressed because they chose to be gay, then you really suck as a friend and they probably do not confide in you all that much.

No one wakes up and says- what can I do that will only make me depressed today? Hmmm. Limit my mating choices, open myself to ridicule, and risk losing friends and family? Wow, that sounds good, I will do that then wonder why I am depressed later.


edit on 25-12-2010 by Sinnthia because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by Sinnthia
 


Edit: I have removed this post because what was typed originally contained harsh statements which were said in the heat of the moment. I apologise to Sinnthia for what I said and realise now it was uncalled for and off-topic as well.
edit on 25/12/2010 by Dark Ghost because: final edit



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Sinnthia
 


I just explained the point dude. So what if it's not a choice?


Let me try like this.

What

does

that

have

to

do

with

this???????????????????????????????????????



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by Phenomium
Women choosing careers over love

Women not understanding the difference between Mysandry and Feminism..men turning gay.

...for starters




How about a restart.
Try again.
Credible sources.
Studies.

NOT BLOG ARTICLES.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:40 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


Is your entire response to me just you saying that I am gay and ugly?

Seriously, that is what you have to offer up?



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by Sinnthia
 


Edit: I have removed this post because what was typed originally contained harsh statements which were said in the heat of the moment. Some of the content was also off-topic.
edit on 25/12/2010 by Dark Ghost because: final edit



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:49 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 


You are confusing symptoms with cause in your quoted text. Many gay people experienced those things because they already were feeling different from other males and struggled with coming to terms with those differences. Being athletically challenged or having a distant father does not cause gayness.

Lots of people suffering those things are straight. None of those issues are the cause of being gay, they are the result of being gay and not accepted or understood. You've got cause and effect backwards.

You don't know a single gay person who is happy? Well let me introduce myself to you. I am gay and about as happy as an old man with no worries can be.

Every gay person comes from a broken home? Wrong again. My parents remained in a caring marriage till death did them part.

My father was a warm generous, loving man who was not afraid of showing his emotions. Yet I turned out gay. Go figure.

Are you prepared to look at all the facts and research and not just the limited ones that support your pre-existing opinions? You've invested a lot into this subject. Might as well make it pay off.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by Sinnthia
 


I didn't say you were gay or ugly. It sounds like you have a Superiority Complex - that is all.


You said I had a female partner who got hit on more than me. Please elaborate then since I apparently took that all wrong. Why would I have a partner again?


You said you didn't like ugly men coming up trying to hit on you, I am merely trying to illustrate to you that men are not completely fixated by looks and they can be put off by a women's attitude too. Just as women can be attracted to a man's appearance but put off by his attitude.
edit on 25/12/2010 by Dark Ghost because: refined


Thanks Mr. Wizard.


ETA: This may come as a shock to you but ATS is the LAST place I want to attract ANYONE so if that is how you take it, PLEASE DO.
edit on 25-12-2010 by Sinnthia because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by Sinnthia

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by PJAmerica
 



Not my place to say what is right or wrong for others so long as they do not impose there way of life upon mine.


Exactly how gay people feel.


What is funny is it exactly how many straight people feel but MEN do not seem to get this. All these men are absolutely disgusted by the idea of some MAN hitting on them. What they do not seem to understand is that is exactly how us straight women feel every time one of these little Danny Devito looking trolls hits on us. I do not go around saying that it is wrong to be ugly, I just put up with being hit on by ugly men. I guess I find it really odd that women have to put up with it but apparently straight men are terrified of it happening to them.
Men can be such little girls about some things.


I have had 3 gay men make passes at me or show interest in me and I find no offense in that. It's to me no different than when a woman who does the same. Attraction is attraction in whatever form it may be expressed in whether sexual, persona or all of the above. Now if a woman or gay man grabbed me or physically violated me and my space without permission I would take offense and hold them accountable. Gender is only a concern to men because of the social constraints taught to them. It seems to me that most men are either not in touch with there own sexuality or not comfortable with there own sexuality.



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