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"I have gay friends, but..." Umm... No, you don't...

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posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Gseven

I love everyone - but I don't love what everyone chooses to do with their lives. I simply have a view that is based on things gays don't agree with. Ex-gays agree with them, current gays do not.


There is no such thing as an Ex-gay.


Well, dear Annee, what would you have me call them? This is what they refer to themselves, so take it up with them. This is a dispute that has nothing to do with me.

So, let's recap so we can all understand what's going here. Can we agree that to the following at least?

1. Gays want civil and marital rights, the same as every other group.

2. Most straights agree with the right of people to live their lives as they choose, (including myself), and have no problems with implementing legal rights.

3. Gays want acceptance, not just tolerance, from the straights, as well as equal rights.

4. Religious persons can tolerate, but have chosen not to accept the homosexual lifestyle.

5. Gays want religious persons to change their religious perspectives and accept them.

6. Scientific minded persons want proof of genetic claims.

7. Gays think the demands for scientific proof is an insult to their claims.

8. Psychologically minded persons feel that homosexuality is largely in the head, caused by some relationship trauma, and is a learned behavior.

9. Gays scoff at the "it's in your head" idea, and balk at the idea of it being a learned behavior.

10. Religious persons overwhelmingly oppose homosexual behavior based on Biblical teachings.

11. Gays reject Biblical teachings, and overwhelmingly reject God and/or religion.

12. Philosophical persons insist that from a larger perspective, homosexuality is a symptom of a cancer, or disease within the human body as a whole, signaling our eventual demise as a species.

13. Too my knowledge, no one has countered the above statement, except to say they are "wrong".

14. Gays want to be able to marry just like straights....to them, it is the same.

15. Many straights want their marriages held apart from a homosexual marriage...not associated with, that is. To them it is different.

16. Gays want their sexuality open and in public, to include being in the workplace, with no backlash. (i.e., don't ask, don't tell)

17. Straights feel that the workplace is no place for sex, whether straight or gay.

18. Gays want equal rights with benefits from their jobs.

19. Straights feel this is opening Pandora's Box to a whole slew of future lawsuits that will further degrade the moral structure of the country. (i.e., "You didn't promote me because I'm gay", "How come my partner can't go overseas with me?", "Why can't my partner and I get military housing?", "Why can't my partner get a dependent card?", "Why can't my partner's children become my dependent's?", "I'm being harassed because I'm gay", "Mr. Straight married man got paternity leave, why can't I?", "I live in a state that doesn't allow gay marriage, so why should we be punished if I'm serving my country in the same way?"....and then on the flip side, "that man/woman wouldn't stop harassing me after I told them I wasn't gay", "they got promoted above me because they are gay", "that gay couple got housing, and we got decline - and we have four kids!". And the list goes on and on.

20. Gays resent having morals imposed on them.

21. Straights resent the gays insisting they realign their morals.

Have I left anything out? I didn't list these to debate. I listed them to make sure that we understand each other.




posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 02:47 AM
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You speak the truth my good sir.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 03:01 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 

Well, I thought that I was done with this thread, but coming back I see that you have made the best post in the thread, well done sir/ma'am.
Seeashrink



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 03:32 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 


I agree with everything but if you would....please add #21 STRAIGHT men love ALL LESBIANS.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 04:08 AM
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Originally posted by Gseven

Well, dear Annee, what would you have me call them? This is what they refer to themselves, so take it up with them. This is a dispute that has nothing to do with me.
.


Liars. Living a lie to appease others - society - religion. How many of these ex-gays do you know?

There is no such thing as an ex-gay. There are gays who have chosen to go against their natural and normal orientation by not acting on them. They are still gay.

There is plenty of information on the web regarding the practice of conversion therapy. Research some that is not religious based.

. . . such interventions are ethically suspect because they can be harmful to the psychological well-being of those who attempt them; clinical observations and self-reports indicate that many individuals who unsuccessfully attempt to change their sexual orientation experience considerable psychological distress. For these reasons, no major mental health professional organization has sanctioned efforts to change sexual orientation and virtually all of them have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation. The Royal College of Psychiatrists shares the concern of both the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association that positions espoused by bodies like the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) in the United States are not supported by science and that so-called treatments of homosexuality as recommended by NARTH create a setting in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 04:24 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 



Speaking from a "straight" perspective with insight provided from many gays I would say your list is way over-generalized. It may be correct from a few people you have spoken with but you won't get agreement from a broad majority. In some areas you may have a general concensus though.

As I recall in discussion, you were the one that had some bi-sexual feelings but chose a straight lifestyle, correct? For many there is no choice to be made. I am straight and have no inclinations to go the other direction. I am not sure that is so for the majority but certainly a large sector feels that way. You do not, you had a decision to make.

Some statements you made regarding "straights" on the issue do not reflect my views at all. I am comfortable enough with my own sexuality to not have an issue about tolerance or acceptance of gays. I do have a problem with intolerance by others in the society though. I wish that could be remedied by permitting sensitive gays to have their own community if they desire, and for intolerant straghts to have their's as well. The rest can integrate. Those of us without issues should be able to come and go without incident. Unfortunately, society demands we live integrated. So I believe that demands tolerance from us all.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 04:44 AM
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Originally posted by Gseven

1. Gays want civil and marital rights, the same as every other group.

The same as every other human - individual.



3. Gays want acceptance, not just tolerance, from the straights, as well as equal rights.

Don't you want acceptance, not just tolerance, from other humans? This isn't a gay thing - its a human thing.


4. Religious persons can tolerate, but have chosen not to accept the homosexual lifestyle.

Some religious persons are fully accepting of gay orientation. Lifestyle is an incorrect terminology.


5. Gays want religious persons to change their religious perspectives and accept them.

Incorrect. It would be nice - but no one is trying to change someone's God belief. Supporting Equal Rights has nothing to do with religion.


6. Scientific minded persons want proof of genetic claims.

I am scientific minded and through logic of what is known accept gays are born gay. It would be beneficial to have concrete proof (yes there are hard-core science minded that require proof of anything).


7. Gays think the demands for scientific proof is an insult to their claims.

They don't think it is necessary to accept them for what they already know. If I was gay I would welcome proof.


8. Psychologically minded persons feel that homosexuality is largely in the head, caused by some relationship trauma, and is a learned behavior.

I don't agree with this at all.


9. Gays scoff at the "it's in your head" idea, and balk at the idea of it being a learned behavior.

Because they know the truth.


10. Religious persons overwhelmingly oppose homosexual behavior based on Biblical teachings.

Organized religions oppose homosexual behavior. Individual religious people do not all follow every thing their church does. Such as Catholics who use birth control.


11. Gays reject Biblical teachings, and overwhelmingly reject God and/or religion.

As I stated most gays I know are Christian. When biblical teachings are misguided - such as stoning - they need to be corrected.


12. Philosophical persons insist that from a larger perspective, homosexuality is a symptom of a cancer, or disease within the human body as a whole, signaling our eventual demise as a species.

What?


13. Too my knowledge, no one has countered the above statement, except to say they are "wrong".

As opposed to what? Someone saying they are "right".


14. Gays want to be able to marry just like straights....to them, it is the same.

It is the same. Marriage is a legal contract protecting rights and property of those joining together as a couple. There is nothing in a Marriage License that states anything about Love or God. You can not legally get married in a church - - without a Government License.


15. Many straights want their marriages held apart from a homosexual marriage...not associated with, that is. To them it is different.

Primarily because of religion. Religion is a belief of choice.


16. Gays want their sexuality open and in public, to include being in the workplace, with no backlash. (i.e., don't ask, don't tell)
.
Gays want Equality. What is acceptable for straights is acceptable for all.


17. Straights feel that the workplace is no place for sex, whether straight or gay.

People who are gay are attracted to same gender. They are not a walking sex act.


18. Gays want equal rights with benefits from their jobs.

Gays want Equality. Period!


19. Straights feel this is opening Pandora's Box to a whole slew of future lawsuits that will further degrade the moral structure of the country. (i.e., "You didn't promote me because I'm gay", "How come my partner can't go overseas with me?", "Why can't my partner and I get military housing?", "Why can't my partner get a dependent card?", "Why can't my partner's children become my dependent's?", "I'm being harassed because I'm gay", "Mr. Straight married man got paternity leave, why can't I?", "I live in a state that doesn't allow gay marriage, so why should we be punished if I'm serving my country in the same way?"....and then on the flip side, "that man/woman wouldn't stop harassing me after I told them I wasn't gay", "they got promoted above me because they are gay", "that gay couple got housing, and we got decline - and we have four kids!". And the list goes on and on.

I'm straight. Hogwash. Fear mongering is baseless. Prejudice on the other hand.


20. Gays resent having morals imposed on them.

People are People - - Gays are not a group think. Who the hell are you to force your morals on me? Yes - I am straight.


21. Straights resent the gays insisting they realign their morals.

This moral thing is ridiculous. You are trying to insist natural attraction to same sex is immoral. It isn't.


Have I left anything out? I didn't list these to debate. I listed them to make sure that we understand each other.


Did you leave out any more cliché thinking? Oh wait - - I got one. "Love the sinner - hate the sin".


edit on 26-12-2010 by Annee because: fix quote



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 07:11 AM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


My friend, you do sound like you were not born but manufactured in some factory! Such a calculating mind and apparently no emotional components allowed. Oh well. You are interesting.

Have you ever counted the # of phallic symbols in your avatar? It's loaded with them. That is interesting too.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 07:34 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 



The difference between us is that I could be friends with you despite your beliefs, since I don't think "gay" defines the spirit of who you are inside - you, on the other hand, would have no tolerance for me. My love is unconditional....yours is not, in which case, isn't love at all.


Sorry, no. You could not be "friends" with me. Friendship isn't possible unless the feeling is mutual. You don't make it on a basic criteria. I don't recall ever having claimed to "love" you so I am not sure why you would raise that. Your so-called unconditional love is neither unconditional; nor love.


Here's the bottom line....the burden of proof lies on YOU, not me.


I don't have to prove anything to you. This is your problem. Not mine. I am happy with the way things are. You, and your like are the ones always trying to make a problem out it. You are the only one needing help and seeking answers. If you find any, they will be for your entertainment only and will be utterly unimportant to me.

Be assured however, that every time you attempt to inflict us with your miserable, negative propaganda you should expect some retort. But I/we have nothing to prove to you. It a stupid, false theory you propose -- and you have no proof, just propaganda.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 07:43 AM
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reply to post by wayno
 


Emotions happen. Laughter, for example. happiness. These are good things that rarely lead to bad things.

Phallic imagery in Roman-Greek styled buildings? Who'd a thought.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 07:56 AM
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reply to post by Sinnthia
 


Uh, no. One thing does not automatically start something, but can occasionally be where something starts.

Hate to break it to you, but over a billion people dance in circles around a meteorite in Mecca, Over a million Romans thought killing people in the Colosseum was not wrong, and over a million Native Americans thought human sacrafice was perfectly normals. At the same time, over a billion people give a gift to a friend these parts of the year because culture says to, no real other reason. Humans do as they are raised to, be it good or bad, including what good and bad means. The only thing human nature does is assures we become lustful angry barbarians when there is nothing there to suppress it. You are right, you are going to sleep with whoever you want, as long as you do nothing to control yourself. That's human nature. But that same human nature is the same human nature that made homosexuality good or bad in different time periods. It's common knowledge that the Romans had a saying. "Men are for pleasure, women are for children". You'd be lucky to find higher up people being straight. Most of them were gay. And it was generally accepted that men had boyfriends for homosexual activity, most of the rich and famous did. Now what happened when Rome fell? Did the genes that made that so just poop out of existence? No. The barbarians who conquered them considered homosexuality wrong. So the culture destroyed its acceptance, and from over 50% of people doing it, it when down to probably bellow 1%.

It's always a choice. Scientists have guesstimated that roughly 10% of the population has intense lustful thoughts for the same gender. So when the culture produced over that, or under that, it was the culture that affected choice to listen to that brain signal or not. Clearly, over 50% is more than 10%. Romans who were straight were doing it because it was accepted and considered a "real man's" way to have pleasure.

SO sorry to break it to you, but it's always a choice. Feeling to weak to listen to what your mind wants does not make it right or wrong. The same lustful thoughts can be generated as intense desire to help people, intense desire to kill people, intense desire to step on the cracks on the floor. It's always choice. Now of course there's always a part of the population struct so strongly that it pretty much is intensely almost impossible to deny it. Autism is certainly one example. There was a video a while back of a girl with it who learned to speak via a computer to describe a "burning" need to do the things she does, and that attempts to shut it up include blasting into the brain a thousand thoughts that were random, to try and shut up that part of the brain. And the load moaning and screams that many come off as being "retarded", were in fact here desperate cries to silence that part of the brain. I can actually relate, as I had twitches as a kid too. And I did the same thing. Eventually, that part of my brain STFU. The same thoughts today generate weaker when I see a hot girl, or when I see a computer part I want. You have to just say no. Most of the time the brain will listen to you and shut up. Other times, it won't.

That's all that any lustful thought is. The brain desiring what it wants. And what the brain wants is a product of what you've chosen to like over the years. In as much as someone yarns and screams for Harry Potter, and I could care less. Because I chose not to like it.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 08:06 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 



Have I left anything out? I didn't list these to debate. I listed them to make sure that we understand each other.


No, I think you covered all your biases very well. I thought I understood how warped your thinking is but seeing it all in one spot was, well, exasperating . I am not going to respond point by point, but enough to say that your sweeping generalizations about what gay people believe is way, way off.

I believe the statements about your biases and prejudices are clear and concise!



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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To those of you that say "I have one or two gay friends" or "I don't have any gay friends". I'm afraid I must say you have several gay friends, co-workers, and quite possibly even relatives. Just because they have chosen to conceal this information from you or are struggling with denial, it doesn't mean they aren't gay.

Wake up.
edit on 26-12-2010 by Isawsomething because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 08:39 AM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


Would your analytical brain accept that whatever you choose to analyze about humans, the results when graphed will usually approximate a bell curve? Take any opinion, trait or belief and most people will have some central position while fewer and fewer would be out on one extreme or the other.

I believe the "natural" state of sexuality is the same -- most people are born having some capacity either way and relatively fewer with a strong and exclusive homo or hetero orientation. Of course, in practice, people do make choices for all sorts of reasons; including the societal pressures you mention. In that sense there is some choice in the matter of what they actually do with their basic instincts.

Those who really think things through before making a choice for themselves are relatively rare. I suspect far more simply go along with the pre-eminent religious, political or societal pressure and dogma.

Some of us who have tasted freedom from this tyranny are constantly besieged by those who would return the yoke around our necks. Personally I have "chosen" to accept where I am on the gay - straight continuum and life my life accordingly, because to do anything less would be less than perfect.

edit on 12/26/2010 by wayno because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 08:45 AM
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Well guys (and gals), I've grown weary of this debate. As I already stated, it's going nowhere. No matter what I say, it's countered, discredited, or otherwise ignored. No matter how I say it, it's returned with insults. While I suppose I could stick around and go on....and on....about this, until I've corrected (for the hundredth time) all the misinterpretations of my words, or restated (for the hundredth time) all the points that get ignored, I'm quite OK to let it all go at this point. At best I can only generalize, because like you, I cannot possibly represent everyone's ideas....only my own and those who feel mostly like I do. You cannot possibly represent all gay (or even ex-gay) ideas, only your own and those who align themselves with you. And guess what? I'm OK with that too.

I can, and do, respect different ideas, values and even lifestyles. I don't claim to understand them always, or even AGREE with them, but I do respect them. I do hope one day that science explains this to me so I don't have to make sense of the enigma that is the gay community - you all contradict yourselves so much that nothing makes sense. (That is not an insult, but rather an honest assessment from me, and I hope that it is taken as such.) I sincerely want to know HOW this happens, because I'm from the camp that it is not natural...again, not an insult. I just don't understand how it happens, why it happens, or why it's condemned in every major religion around the world. I want to see the gears of this thing and understand. I want to know if it's psychological, environment, a choice, genetic, or just morals on a holiday. I don't want to be spoon fed a bunch of "because I said so's" and anecdotal here-say. I hope that makes sense.

For now, I don't know what to believe, and some of the loudest loud-mouths for the cause aren't gay, so I'm not sure those people are even HELPING the situation, but rather flaming it with anger and claims that they have no proof of, aside from their own beliefs, which are subject to being just as invalid as my own without proof. I hope one day that there can be an honest, kind exchange, so that both sides can attempt to understand where each other is coming from and reach a healthy respect for each other so that neither group feels infringed upon. Homosexuality and religion will never be lovers, as I said before, but I believe in the notion of "live and let live". However, that's a road that must go both ways in order for it to work properly.

I've lost quite a few karma points and got docked some excessive quoting points, so I think I'm done.


Peace and happy holidays! No hard feelings, I hope.

edit on 26-12-2010 by Gseven because: content



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 


If you truly want to understand something, then it is usually a good idea to stop talking, and start listening.

Those large posts you make are the equivalent of doing all the talking. Stepping back and taking time to digest may be a good idea. Understanding is what we all want. Acceptance would be great, but understanding is a good point to get to along the journey.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 09:14 AM
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Anyone who tells you straight/gay is a choice obviously has faced making that decision themselves. Those who have made a personal decision are denying a part of themselves and assign some guilt or shame to that part and speak adamantly against it.

For others of us there was never any decision to make and we accept ourselves and others for whatever orientation they may have. It is only those who have denied themselves that find a need to deny others.
edit on 26-12-2010 by Erongaricuaro because: to re-paragraph for ease of reading.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 09:39 AM
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reply to post by Erongaricuaro
 


I strongly believe that it is possible for someone to actively decide to not act on any gay feelings they may have for reasons that make sense to them and go on with their lives and be happy -- so long as they are not left without meaningful human relationships. It is no different really from some
men who really like having sex with many women, but choose to not get it on with them anymore and stick to just one when they get married. Some of those can actually be happy too.

It is those who make choices based solely on fears, like what their family, friends or church might think that I feel sorry for. Many of those turn their angst outwards and start hating gay people in general for not capitulating to the fears and pressures like they did. We see lots of those on threads like these. You can spot them almost instantly -- all rage and no reason, clinging to falsehoods in desperation.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


So glad you felt the need to put up that wall of text that does nothing to prove your point. You talk about things people CHOOSE and compare it to how they were born. You do not make any sense.

I can choose to eat meat or I can choose to eat vegetables but I cannot CHOOSE TO BE HUNGRY.

What do you not get?
Talk about Religion all you like but it does nothing to change the fact that you do not get to choose to be gay. You have not shown when you stopped lusting after men and CHOSE to be straight so please stop trying to use religion to make a case about not being born gay.

NOTHING IN YOUR WALL OF TEXT MAKES SENSE in the context of this conversation. If you want to prove being gay is a choice, try actually doing it. Going on and on about things people can choose is just really kind of stupid when you so obviously ignore the things people do not choose, like SEX DRIVE.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by Gseven

Well, dear Annee, what would you have me call them? This is what they refer to themselves, so take it up with them. This is a dispute that has nothing to do with me.



Call them gay because that is what they are.
When you spend all your time fantasizing about gay relationships and becoming aroused by attractive members of the same sex, you can masturbate and pray to god all night long but you are STILL GAY.

There is a reason all those ex-gay counselors keep getting caught with male escorts and it aint because they are spreading the word about how to get "fixed."




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