"I have gay friends, but..." Umm... No, you don't...

reply to post by Sinnthia


People don't choose to be gay, they just are, you cannot choose who you are attracted to or fall in love with, this is why I think gay people have a more feminine (or masculine in regards to women) side in their genes. Remember the only difference between a man and a woman is meat and two veg or a lovely bunch of coconuts!

..

Originally posted by skull_bones
Lets see, Who is more intolerant here.

Is it the person who may disagrees with certain aspects of a persons lifestyle, but accepts them as a friend anyway?

Or,

Is it the OP who claims you cannot and would not be friends with anyone unless you agree with the way they live their lives?

I will take the OP as a friend over someone that will tell me I was born wrong but they accept me anyway.
Not a tough call at all there.

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

People don't choose to be gay, they just are, you cannot choose who you are attracted to or fall in love with, this is why I think gay people have a more feminine (or masculine in regards to women) side in their genes. Remember the only difference between a man and a woman is meat and two veg or a lovely bunch of coconuts!

edit on 25/12/10 by woogleuk because: (no reason given)

Who are you talking to?

Originally posted by Gseven
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

There is no reasoning with you. I've explained several times, (most of which you've probably refused to read), as to why many people feel the way I do. Those of us who feel it IS a choice, is because we made that choice ourselves, or we've been given enough choices in our lives to know that in our older age, things could have turned out a LOT differently.

You obviously disagree, and are unwilling to look beyond what you perceive, or are choosing to "read" into my posts your own interpretations, so there's nothing more to say really. I won't sit here and debate silly insults. It would be the equivalent to me telling you your user name fits you nicely....SINnthia. Now THAT would match your level of argument.

edit on 25-12-2010 by Gseven because: content

The argument of whether homosexuality is a choice or whether it is natural are all attempts to justify a moral imperative that homosexuality is "wrong". It is an impersonal justification. It's like when I tell my kids, you have to get ready for school now because it's late: I am removing myself as the personal judge of their lateness, it's the clock that is judging them. This is an example of where an impersonal justification is well placed.

But once an impersonal justification of homosexuality such as "it is a choice" is establish then what is the point of that unless it is conveyed together with the idea that "it is wrong"?

Wrong according to whom? If you are a believer I can see an argument such as "according to god" and that opens an entirely new argument. But if you are not, then how do you define wrong when no victim exists? I realize there is a minority of people out there that take "offense" at homosexuality, and are somehow "victimized" by people looking or acting gay. I am not talking about those nutjobs. I am talking about whether homosexual behavior is intrinsically wrong? since every argument seems like a justification

I am sure you can define wrong somehow, that is what is known as your sense of morals. Let's please have a distinction between a person's sense of morals and the idea that somehow this is an universal notion.

To all homosexuals out there I'd like to suggest to never engage in debate with somebody arguing "naturalness" or choiceness" of homosexuality. The debate carries the assumption that it is "wrong". Debate *that* instead. Don't bother to argue with somebody that is, in summary telling you: "You are wrong because you made a choice" or "you are wrong because this is unnatural". Question the first part. Ask your opponent to elaborate why is it wrong.

You might get a circular answer like "it is wrong because it is a choice" but I think that may be a more interesting argument. Let's argue instead that the judgement against homosexuals is an opinion.

-rrr

Originally posted by Gseven
Not true. Learned behaviors most certainly can be unlearned. How did you learn to like chocolate cake to begin with? You tried it. You liked it. You associated it with pleasure. Badda boom....you now like chocolate cake. That is a learned behavior. Had you never tried it, you wouldn't know you liked it. It may have LOOKED good, but unless you tried it, you'd never know for sure. Heterosexuals can just as easily be "turned" gay by the same notion, and homosexuals have been "reversed" by this same notion. It is a learned behavior that can most certainly can be reversed.

So you do find both men and women equally arousing?
Tried both?
Went with the one you liked better?

None of what you said is anything more than pure BS. Everyone I ever had any sexual contact with in my life was someone I was ATTRACTED TO. That includes the FIRST guy. Yep, that's right, I was ATTRACTED to men so men are who I engaged in sexual relations with. Now how do you suppose I learned to be attracted to just men before I had sex the first time?

I really do not understand you men that claim you chose to be straight. How many men did you sleep with before you decided?

Originally posted by Gseven
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

There is no reasoning with you. I've explained several times, (most of which you've probably refused to read), as to why many people feel the way I do.

I read them, they were wrong. Why do you feel because you wrote something on a forum I am supposed to accept it?

Those of us who feel it IS a choice, is because we made that choice ourselves, or we've been given enough choices in our lives to know that in our older age, things could have turned out a LOT differently.

You have not been able to explain how you were attracted to both men and women but chose to narrow that attraction down. That is really all you have to do.

You obviously disagree, and are unwilling to look beyond what you perceive, or are choosing to "read" into my posts your own interpretations, so there's nothing more to say really. I won't sit here and debate silly insults. It would be the equivalent to me telling you your user name fits you nicely....SINnthia. Now THAT would match your level of argument.

edit on 25-12-2010 by Gseven because: content

Not really since I have not put forth any silly notions about choice and then made really poor examples to try and explain it with then becoming indignant when you do not just take what I say as gospel truth. See the difference between us? I just asked you to make your case. Prove your point. Help me believe what you say is worth reading. You do not seem to be able to do that.

Keep calling it a choice without being able to even begin to explain that. Let me know if that ever makes it true. Maybe you can find some gay folks that will say they chose to be gay and back up your point. That should be easy, no?

Originally posted by Sinnthia

Originally posted by skull_bones
Lets see, Who is more intolerant here.

Is it the person who may disagrees with certain aspects of a persons lifestyle, but accepts them as a friend anyway?

Or,

Is it the OP who claims you cannot and would not be friends with anyone unless you agree with the way they live their lives?

I will take the OP as a friend over someone that will tell me I was born wrong but they accept me anyway.
Not a tough call at all there.

So you dont have a problem with him being intolerant of eveyone else, just as long as he's not intolerant of you.

I get it.

reply to post by Gseven

I viewed homosexuality the same way, since many of my friends entered into it in much the same way I had the opportunity to. The difference was....I chose not to be curious about it, and I have zero regrets.

Whether or not you can resist donuts is a far cry from whether or not you can resist a sexual feeling. There is a difference of magnitudes in level of intensity and importance.

The fact that you even had a choice in your sex life, is significant. Don't assume that everyone has that same degree of choice. For some there really is no choice except for a hetero relationship. For some at the other end there also is no choice because all of their inclinations go only for a same sex partner.

You having had a degree of choice in which way to go implies you are somewhere between the extremes. Nobody says you have to have one of each just to be satisfied. It is nothing short of wonderful that you found one mate that has suited you well over time. That is fantastic, but it does not mean everyone has the same options.

Originally posted by skull_bones
So you dont have a problem with him being intolerant of eveyone else, just as long as he's not intolerant of you.

I get it.

edit on 25-12-2010 by skull_bones because: (no reason given)

That is not at all what I said but...ok then. Who is this everyone else the the OP is being so intolerant towards? I had not really noticed any intolerance from the OP towards anyone.

What I said was if I were limited to a choice between A and B, I would choose A. I hope you can re-read it and get the difference between what I said and what you said I said.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
reply to post by Phenomium

 

When someone tells me that they have to lie to their wife in order to gain sexual gratification by using a stethascope to listen to other people have sex, I have to really wonder how that straight marriage is working out for you.

First off, my "straight" marriage is fine. Secondly..........HELLO, I'm a guy. I like women and in multiples if possible. Lesbians, I can't touch, but they are still women and this is the fantasy of nearly every man (straight) alive. Your statement makes no sense at all to men everywhere. As you are clearly a woman Sinthia.......You wouldn't understand men anyway. Another thing about a marriage.....you don't always blab everything to your partner. Call it a lie or whatever, but if you F*** up.............you have to live with them. Honesty is only the best policy when it doesn't get you a frying pan over the head.

reply to post by Gseven

Heterosexuals can just as easily be "turned" gay by the same notion, and homosexuals have been "reversed" by this same notion. It is a learned behavior that can most certainly can be reversed.

Because you say so?

This nonsense has been discredited over and again. For you to continue with this line is the hight of ignorance and arrogance. Those two things go really well together to prevent learning, as your posts so eloquently show.

Originally posted by Sinnthia

Originally posted by skull_bones
So you dont have a problem with him being intolerant of eveyone else, just as long as he's not intolerant of you.

I get it.

edit on 25-12-2010 by skull_bones because: (no reason given)

That is not at all what I said but...ok then. Who is this everyone else the the OP is being so intolerant towards? I had not really noticed any intolerance from the OP towards anyone.

What I said was if I were limited to a choice between A and B, I would choose A. I hope you can re-read it and get the difference between what I said and what you said I said.

edit on 25-12-2010 by Sinnthia because: (no reason given)

He's essentially saying he is intolerant of everyone that he doesnt agree with their lifestyle 100%,

That knife cuts both ways, if he's claiming that i cant be friends with or love someone becuase i dont agree with their lifestyle, then he is also saying he cant or wont be friends with anyone that he doesnt agree with their lifstyle. He just doesnt have a problem with homosexuality.

I, on the other hand, feel that someone doesnt have to agree with or even like how someone lives their life, to be able to bond with them, love them and form a strong lasting friendship.

That would drive me insane if the only people that i was friends with were exact replicas of me and my values and morals.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by rickyrrr

 

Don't get caught up in the semantics of the definition. People who say it is unnatural are usually referring to it in the context of the Laws of Nature. If an entire animal population were to cease heterosexual activity and only participated in sex with the same sex, that type of animal would go extinct.

edit on 25/12/2010 by Dark Ghost because: reworded

So it is not a problem unless the human race was close to extinction. By that token, it's actually kind of good because we are close to overpopulation wouldn't you think?

Actually, turns out there was a study finding that in overpopulated groups of mice homosexual behavior increased.

www.backyardnature.net...

So that would explain homosexual behavior in humans very nicely. It also turns out homosexual behavior is far more common in densely populated cities than other places. Seems like natures way to control population by that study.

-rrr

Originally posted by woogleuk
Remember the only difference between a man and a woman is meat and two veg or a lovely bunch of coconuts

Oh dear, your Ignorance...it burns. (Credit to the OP of this thread who used to have this phrase on his avatar at some point. )

There are plenty of ways men and women differ besides what exists between their legs.

Originally posted by Phenomium
First off, my "straight" marriage is fine.

If you think lying to your wife get off by listening to your gay neighbors is what a healthy marriage is then more power to you.

Secondly..........HELLO, I'm a guy.

Hi, I am a girl.

I like women and in multiples if possible. Lesbians, I can't touch, but they are still women and this is the fantasy of nearly every man (straight) alive.

Of course because it is not homosexuality you REALLY think is wrong. It just the idea of two guys is icky for you so you stand with the anti-gay crowd just to cover for your weak hypocrisy. I get it, I really do. You are not unique by any means.

Your statement makes no sense at all to men everywhere.

Did you ask them all already?

As you are clearly a woman Sinthia.......You wouldn't understand men anyway.

Ah, you do not think females have sexuality or understand it? Your marriage sounds better and better. Yes, I am human. I do indeed understand sexuality and sexual desire. Women have orgasms too. Well, not all. Some cannot have them, some have husbands that do not know how to give them so they fake going to sleep early so he can touch himself whilst listening to the neighbors.

Another thing about a marriage.....you don't always blab everything to your partner. Call it a lie or whatever, but if you F*** up.............you have to live with them. Honesty is only the best policy when it doesn't get you a frying pan over the head.

Um...you said you lied to your wife, not me.

Sounds like a great marriage. Any story you would be proud to tell your grandkids.

Originally posted by mademyself1984

Originally posted by Gradius Maximus

Originally posted by RelentlessLurker
reply to post by mydarkpassenger

 

well in the same way you think pedophilia "hurts" kids.

and bestiality "hurts" animals.


some feel homosexuality "hurts" society

Society can go #### itself, but then again thats just my opinion.

Separation of church and state.
Separation of intimacy and public knowledge
Separation of McDonalds and Food Industry.

Ahh, wonderful.

edit on 24-12-2010 by Gradius Maximus because: (no reason given)

And here is my only problem with Gays. If society (me) can go f**k itself, because I find you disgusting, then can you go f**k yourself because you don't think you are? What a stupid debate. Do what you want. Love who you want. I personally don't give a s**t, however, I will say it should really not be defended on the basis of "oh but look, it IS natural...." It isn't. The simple genetic makeup of your bodies is proof of that. It's just frustrating to listen to Gays piss and moan about rights, and then label anyone who disagrees with them bigots. Stop comparing your "equal rights" movement with African Americans, or Women....it's not the same ballpark. It isn't even the same sport.

They are only doing what the Women and to some extent the radical blacks have done for years.....whine and complain about not being equal. When they finally achieve equality, thiey think.....why fix it if it ain't broken? They cry more and more and get more and more just like spoiled children.......This is the very earmark of feminism. They don't realize how much like big babies they come off as. They "think" they look empowered because of all the television shows and ads on television, but THAT is government sponsorship using them to degrade the quality of our country and the family structure. Feminists themselves are nothing bit big, ugly (mostly fat and disgusting), angry, spoiled children crying for more candy when they already have a roomful of it, and to destroy our country, the elites are all to eager to help them. As for Blacks......all I have to say is Obama, I am white and I'll never be President or even have a chance despite what lying parents and teaches say everywhere. "you can be any one you want, even the President" Bull SH**! It's the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. Back on topic....feminists are the worst cancer for American families in all of history.

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by Gseven

 

I viewed homosexuality the same way, since many of my friends entered into it in much the same way I had the opportunity to. The difference was....I chose not to be curious about it, and I have zero regrets.

Whether or not you can resist donuts is a far cry from whether or not you can resist a sexual feeling. There is a difference of magnitudes in level of intensity and importance.

The fact that you even had a choice in your sex life, is significant. Don't assume that everyone has that same degree of choice. For some there really is no choice except for a hetero relationship. For some at the other end there also is no choice because all of their inclinations go only for a same sex partner.

You having had a degree of choice in which way to go implies you are somewhere between the extremes. Nobody says you have to have one of each just to be satisfied. It is nothing short of wonderful that you found one mate that has suited you well over time. That is fantastic, but it does not mean everyone has the same options.

Now THAT is a valid point I can reason with. Versus someone telling me my experiences are invalid, I can reason that others may not have had the same opportunities as I have had. Thank you for being respectful about it...I appreciate it. It still doesn't negate the idea that clinically, at least, results lean toward it being a learned behavior, brought on by our environments and/or past experiences. I've made several lengthy arguments early on in this thread, addressing the full gamut of ideals and reasoning. I think, in my attempt at explaining things, I've personalized this far too much when I should have kept it impersonal and stuck to studies and evidence that supports my views.

Early on in this thread, I stated many times, and I'll state again for the record, I support everyone's right to choose how they live their life, and I love my friends regardless. What I find disheartening is that I'm not allowed to say that I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle without being cornered and hammered as to who, what, why, when and where....all of which are countered with "you're wrong", and a whole slew of other reasons that do nothing but invalidate my feelings on it. Of course, I could keep my opinions to myself, and in real life, I do. But I do find it odd. ATS is the perfect testing ground for this, and I'm just as equally shocked that people don't consider that homosexuality may indeed coincide with denial, in much the same way that addictions and other destructive learned behaviors do. In which case, what's the point of arguing unless there's an intervention? There is no point. It certainly doesn't change how I feel though, and coming from a scientific standpoint, I want proof, not just some regurgitated "it's not a choice" that every gay person likes to spout off. Until I see absolute proof that EVERY person who claims to be gay, IS in fact genetically gay, I will continue to follow the other evidence out there that points in the opposite direction.

Surely, I can't be faulted for approaching it in this manner, versus just taking someone's word at their level of gayness? I asked much earlier in this thread....who am I to believe? The "recovering" gays? Or the ones who have not sought help? Because the recovering ones are flat out telling the world that it IS a learned behavior that can be fixed.

Originally posted by skull_bones
He's essentially saying he is intolerant of everyone that he doesnt agree with their lifestyle 100%,

When? Where? I missed that part.

That knife cuts both ways, if he's claiming that i cant be friends with or love someone becuase i dont agree with their lifestyle, then he is also saying he cant or wont be friends with anyone that he doesnt agree with their lifstyle. He just doesnt have a problem with homosexuality.

I am not sure we read the same OP exactly.

I, on the other hand, feel that someone doesnt have to agree with or even like how someone lives their life, to be able to bond with them, love them and form a strong lasting friendship.

OK.

That would drive me insane if the only people that i was friends with were exact replicas of me and my values and morals.

edit on 25-12-2010 by skull_bones because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-12-2010 by skull_bones because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-12-2010 by skull_bones because: (no reason given)

How insane would it drive you to have your friend keep telling you how awesome a friend they are because even though they know you were born WRONG, they accept you anyway?

I did not see all this intolerance from the OP you are talking about but the condescending "i love you even though you are broken" crap may make you think you are a good friend but I bet your "friends" would say otherwise.

reply to post by Gseven

Those of us who feel it IS a choice, is because we made that choice ourselves, or we've been given enough choices in our lives to know that in our older age, things could have turned out a LOT differently.

I will give you an example regarding how things turned out in old age for some like you.

My friend started up a man-to-man massage business about a year ago. Who do you think are his most frequent customers??

Old, married men; men who fantacized all their married lives about having sex with another man, and now, some into their 80's are getting it for $50.

Never too late to learn I guess. Better late than never.