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"I have gay friends, but..." Umm... No, you don't...

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posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:50 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 


I respect your opinion, however I must disagree personally. However, I am not doing so in an effort to change your mind or to tell you that you are wrong. When I say I respect your opinion, that is precisely what I meant by those words. It is your opinion, and you have a right to it. There will not be enmity between me and anyone else just because I disagree with them. But I do wish to try and explain, clarify, and elaborate on my own opinion, because I have always believed that the more all sides in a discussion understand one another, the more enlightened and enriched everyone taking part will be.

In my opinion it is highly debatable as to whether homosexuality - or sexuality in general - is a learned behavior. Even those experts who allow for a role in sexual development for environmental or learned factors, do not assert that it is solely or even predominantly learned behavior that establishes sexuality.

Is Homosexuality a choice and/or a learned behavior?


The Royal College of Psychiatrists stated in 2007:

“ Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice.

The American Academy of Pediatrics stated in Pediatrics in 2004:

“ Sexual orientation probably is not determined by any one factor but by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences. In recent decades, biologically based theories have been favored by experts. Although there continues to be controversy and uncertainty as to the genesis of the variety of human sexual orientations, there is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation. Current knowledge suggests that sexual orientation is usually established during early childhood."


Etiology of homosexuality - Wikipedia

Current evidence suggests that sexuality is A: at the very least established early in childhood, well before mature, rational decision making is possible, and even then only in combination with other, non-environmental factors, and 2: at most, an entirely biological dictate. I'm trying to think of a good analog to this. For instance, I suppose it can be argued that, for example, a person who is right handed can learn to be ambidextrous or left handed through extreme effort and time, but convincing them to do so when their quality of life arguably doesn't suffer by being right or left handed might be a tall order. In short, I don't personally feel that there is any imperative for them to do this unless they are harming themselves or others. I see no evidence of that personally, at least not by my standards and criteria (see below for further elaboration on that point.)

Moreover, and in my opinion more crucially, the argument that sexuality in general is learned behavior and can be changed, by its nature in my opinion implies that no one sexuality is more natural or inherent than any other.

Which brings me to:

Is Homosexuality less "natural" or less "inherent" as a sexuality than heterosexuality?

The only evidence in support of the argument that heterosexuality is more legitimate than homosexuality - that I am aware of, at least; please enlighten me if I am ignorant - is that heterosexual intercourse is the only naturally biological means of procreation. However, to that I would counter that procreation is not necessarily what confers legitimacy or "natural-ness" on persons or acts. For example: Is heterosexual intercourse purely for pleasure and/or love between two infertile/sterile individuals of opposite sex "unnatural?" I don't believe it is. And if it isn't, then procreation cannot be the determining factor in whether a sexual behavior is natural or not.

So, by my standards and criteria at least, it is not a choice, occurs broadly and commonly throughout the animal kingdom, and is at least as natural as heterosexual intercourse between an infertile/sterile couple.

That leaves the argument as to whether or not homosexuality is in some way harmful.

Is Homosexuality harmful, and does it make it more likely for children to grow up homosexual themselves?

I know that many feel that homosexuality is somehow "harming" others, which is used as justification for arguing that they should undergo such "re-education." I respect everyone's opinions and feelings, and it is not my desire or place to dictate to anyone else what to believe. But I just don't see it that way, personally. I see no evidence, by my criteria and standards at least, that homosexuality harms anyone in and of itself, anymore than heterosexuality harms anyone in and of itself.

Homosexuality does not beget homosexuality - apparently - either:


The American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, and National Association of Social Workers stated in 2006:

“Currently, there is no scientific consensus about the specific factors that cause an individual to become heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual—including possible biological, psychological, or social effects of the parents’ sexual orientation. However, the available evidence indicates that the vast majority of lesbian and gay adults were raised by heterosexual parents and the vast majority of children raised by lesbian and gay parents eventually grow up to be heterosexual."


Etiology of homosexuality - Wikipedia

Therefore, since by my standards and criteria it is naturally occurring, does not appear likely to increase the probability of children developing homosexually rather than heterosexually, does not appear to constitute a threat to the long term survival of our species, and is evidently not a choice, I have to go with that evidence personally.

Again, I'm not saying all of this to try to dictate to anyone else what to believe, or to convince them that their beliefs are wrong. I'm just explaining the basis for my own opinions and beliefs.
edit on 12/25/2010 by AceWombat04 because: Left out a word in a sentence!




posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:51 AM
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Originally posted by Phenomium
They are only doing what the Women and to some extent the radical blacks have done for years.....whine and complain about not being equal.




Yeah, it was just a couple of black folks that did not like slavery or Jim Crowe.

There was just that one gal fighting for equal rights.


Oh boy this thread is so bad for ATS but so entertaining for me.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by Sinnthia

Originally posted by Gseven
Not true. Learned behaviors most certainly can be unlearned. How did you learn to like chocolate cake to begin with? You tried it. You liked it. You associated it with pleasure. Badda boom....you now like chocolate cake. That is a learned behavior. Had you never tried it, you wouldn't know you liked it. It may have LOOKED good, but unless you tried it, you'd never know for sure. Heterosexuals can just as easily be "turned" gay by the same notion, and homosexuals have been "reversed" by this same notion. It is a learned behavior that can most certainly can be reversed.


So you do find both men and women equally arousing?
Tried both?
Went with the one you liked better?

None of what you said is anything more than pure BS. Everyone I ever had any sexual contact with in my life was someone I was ATTRACTED TO. That includes the FIRST guy. Yep, that's right, I was ATTRACTED to men so men are who I engaged in sexual relations with. Now how do you suppose I learned to be attracted to just men before I had sex the first time?

I really do not understand you men that claim you chose to be straight. How many men did you sleep with before you decided?


Here is when I decided....I thought to myself "Phenomium, today is the big day, will it be hotdogs or fish?" I then looked down as I was taking a shower, and noticed that I had the plug.....and not the outlet. The plug apparantly, gives juice to the outlet and eventually an energetic child comes into the earth. This is called procreation, and seems almost designed. I decided that, in no way could I benefit by trying to plug my plug into an outlet where the prong is not supposed to fit. I wonder, what your rationale was when you decided to rub two outlets together and say to yourself "hey, I got it right". Now I like watching two women as much as the next guy...after all it's two outlets and my plug sure likes outlets,.....(despite he will never have those particular outlets..and outlet can dream), anyway, my point is...that a plug/plug or an outlet/outlet doesn't have the potential to serve a purpose in life. When you have to use "toys" (like many lesbians do) to simulate doing what a man does anyway, that alone will clue you in as to which is natural and which is fake. As far as gay men, when you are shoving ...uh hem,...your way IN the OUT door......well, there's a reason why nature has put the dump at the end of the alley. It is supposed to go into the garbage and be forgotten about, not a place to pull your car into to find permanent parking.
edit on 25-12-2010 by Phenomium because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by Gseven
It still doesn't negate the idea that clinically, at least, results lean toward it being a learned behavior, brought on by our environments and/or past experiences.


Cited studies?

Second line.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:56 AM
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reply to post by rickyrrr
 


Or maybe the male-to-female mice ratio was so disproportionate that male mice had to find partners of the same sex to satisfy their urges. I doubt the mice were concerned with Population Control.

edit on 25/12/2010 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:58 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 




Until I see absolute proof that EVERY person who claims to be gay, IS in fact genetically gay, I will continue to follow the other evidence out there that points in the opposite direction.


There may be some people that are only experimenting with gay sex out of curiosity, but their biological orientation is still straight or slightly bisexual. We are not talking about them, since they are by definition not genuine homosexuals.

Sexuality is a basic inherited instinct, not learned behaviour, just like enjoying sweet foods is.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:59 AM
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reply to post by Phenomium
 


You are honestly trying to tell me that you never had an attraction to anyone, male or female, until one day in the shower when you contemplated your plumbing and decided where it would fit best? I hope you were not writing that thinking I might take it seriously.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by rickyrrr
 


Or maybe the male-to-female mice ratio was so disproportionate that male mice had to find partners of the same sex. Kind of does relate to humanity's current situation: as the number of women who become more career-focused and less interested in relationships with men, the more men are turning to other men for the needs they are not receiving.


Again, more feminist destruction across America. They are destroying families and relationships, and forcing men to make irrational descisions because of their own selfishness.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by Phenomium

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by rickyrrr
 


Or maybe the male-to-female mice ratio was so disproportionate that male mice had to find partners of the same sex. Kind of does relate to humanity's current situation: as the number of women who become more career-focused and less interested in relationships with men, the more men are turning to other men for the needs they are not receiving.


Again, more feminist destruction across America. They are destroying families and relationships, and forcing men to make irrational descisions because of their own selfishness.


I assumed that was edited out so that no one would then ask that it be backed up by say...ANYTHING AT ALL. Since you bring it back to life, care you back any of that up?

I want to know what I have not been hearing about where all these women are choosing jobs over mating and forcing men to make gay choices. What country is this happening in?



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:12 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 



Where are you finding these studies that it's a learned behaviour? Christian Scientists perhaps?The vast majority of the studies in the world have shown it in in one's genes whether one has an attraction to the same sex. Get your facts correct please.The last and largest scientific study found the 'Homosexual Gene' and it is commonly accepted among the medical and scientific community.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:16 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 



who am I to believe? The "recovering" gays? Or the ones who have not sought help? Because the recovering ones are flat out telling the world that it IS a learned behavior that can be fixed.


Sorry mate, you still aren't getting it. Those behaviour modification treatments are just that -- they attempt to change a person's behviour; not the essence of who they are. Sometimes they might actually accomplish a behavioural change, temporarily, but they have not honestly accomplished a change in orientation.

If they have any success at all, I would guess that it is with those who are bi.

Now I will get personal just to confuse the hell out of you. I knew nothing about homosexuality when I was in school. I dated girls in school and even had my heart broken, but didn't have sex. When I learned about and came out as a gay man in university I lived a totally gay life for 15 years. That is when a blue-eyed blond female university student seduced me. She and I had a 4 year relationship with great sex. During that time if my eye wandered it was only to other women. Since that relationship broke off, I am back in the boy's camp and happy to stay there, but then again sometimes I am drawn to women too. It gets very confusing but I have learned to accept that. Actually, given my age and demeaner, look is all I do anymore.
but that is another issue.

Choices? Yes I have had many. I can't change the fact that most times I am attracted one way, and sometimes the other -- that is just who I am and there is no choice in that. I just don't believe it is healthy to try and deny who one is by behaving in a manner that is unnatural to themselves, but then I do understand that some people are quite happy letting others tell them how to lead their lives.

I'm not and I never will; tho I am still on the learning curve as to how to avoid it at every turn and page.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:20 AM
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If I were friends with someone with an amputated limb, does that mean I think having an amputated limb is the way to go?



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:24 AM
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reply to post by hotbakedtater
 





Further I would not befriend someone who was against me having the same rights as they did.


I think, since you have been so vocal against the very notion of males having any reproductive rights, and I am male, I would choose not to befriend you.

Do you see how embracing broad principles like the one in the above quote can bite you on the behind?

I do agree with you, however. Only thing is, YOU don't.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by Sinnthia
reply to post by Phenomium
 


You are honestly trying to tell me that you never had an attraction to anyone, male or female, until one day in the shower when you contemplated your plumbing and decided where it would fit best? I hope you were not writing that thinking I might take it seriously.


Yea, you got me. I was being facetious. However, the reality of how I made the descision was more of a common sense one. It just made sense to go with the woman....I, being a man and all.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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reply to post by Gseven
 


In you case you speak of a choice and I agree for some there IS a choice to be made but I don't for a moment believe that applies to everyone. I spoke earlier in this thread about my aversion to same-sex relations for myself - www.abovetopsecret.com... - and I believe that aversion may be even stronger in heterosexual persons. While you may have limited your encounters to heterosexual ralationships by you own admission it would seem you are not predisposed solely to them but that you did have a choice to make. You obviously could swing either way if you chose to do so, but you did not, thus far. That is not a decision everyone could make.

It would seem that those lack a natural aversion to same-sex relations and could be bi-sexual if they so chose to be often make a decision to conform to heterosexual standards will construct their own social aversion to gay relations for whatever reason. Some go so far as to put up a strong front against the gay lifestyle while deep in their minds they may have yearnings that go the other way but deny those desires. They more than anyone are the most adamant that there is a choice to be made because they made theirs. That form of denial does not seem the be the most mentally healthy in the long run.

Many who have natural heterosexual inclinations are comfortable with it. Homosexual relations do not appeal to them and they are comfortable with that. At the same time they do not feel threatend by others who are openly gay and can be supportive of their rights a privileges to live as they choose. Those who are most adamantly against it seem to have unresolved issues. Women seem more naturally inclined to bi-sexual relations. Men who are strongly anti-gay always leave me with the impressions they have issues they are consciously suppressing.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:36 AM
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Wow this thread is entertaining me


Thanks for some of you folks oout there for giving me a good laugh



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by Phenomium
Yea, you got me. I was being facetious. However, the reality of how I made the descision was more of a common sense one. It just made sense to go with the woman....I, being a man and all.


So that is two of you now that admitted your "choice" was to go with your natural inclination.

How is it that you guys do not realize how silly your argument is even after you keep debunking it on your own for everyone?



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:38 AM
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reply to post by Phenomium
 


Common sense has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

If it did, no person would choose the option that was sure to lead to ridicule, torment and teasing, rejection by family and friends. That would make no sense at all. You don't rationalize this decision.

You is what you is and that is all there is to it. To make the best of the hand you were given is up to you.

Some mope about it. Others get on with life as best they can and fight their battles as they can -- like everytime there is another frickin gay thread on here.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:43 AM
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Homosexuality is wrong for my life style. Not my place to say what is right or wrong for others so long as they do not impose there way of life upon mine. I have been acquainted with many gays over the years and never been friends with any of them. I have never judged them or discredited them as human beings for there life style though. This world is very PC nowadays. I was raised to accept all people for who they are and to do my best to treat all people with respect. Social peer pressure is what makes or breaks trends and misc communications like the OP mentions in my humble opinion and I don't subscribe to it.
edit on 12-25-2010 by PJAmerica because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 08:48 AM
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reply to post by Sinnthia
 


Since we are talkiong about things we cannot choose I thought I may as well have brought that up. Just because you can't choose your sexuality doesn't mean it's automatically justified.



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