"I have gay friends, but..." Umm... No, you don't...

reply to post by tiger5


There are millions of people around the world who do not see two people of the same sex being denied the right marry as being unjust and unfair. Isn't denying two people who are related from marrying just as oppressive and unfair? What difference does it make to you and me if Cleatus and his first cousin Janice want to maintain a romantic relationship?

My point is that you can find Oppression and Unfairness anywhere you want to. Two people of the same sex being denied the right to marry only became these things in the last decade or two. I wonder if in two decades time we will be calling those who condemn the idea that a person has the right to marry their piano unfair and intolerant?

Originally posted by Gseven
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

I made the choice to be straight....on more than one occasion.

More than one occasion? What the hell does that even mean? What were you between those times you chose to be straight? Does that mean you are usually gay?

(And no, I never "went there", but I've had many opportunities to.) And God help me, if one person crawls out of the woodwork and tries telling me I'm a closet gay....well, I may have to wish them a Merry Christmas and leave it at that. Like many of my friends who have made jokes about being "bi-curious", I too could have gone down that road, but I didn't. Why? An instinctual feeling that I chose to listen to. The same voice I listened to when I said no to drugs when my friends were getting high. The same voice I listened to for a LOT of things in life that I credit my current blessings to. I wish I had listened to it more, to be honest.

You are saying that although you may have wanted to engage in gay sex, you CHOSE not to because of some natural drive inside you? Do you get that at all?

I chose, and I waited a long time before meeting my spouse. For a while, I thought I'd live life without ever knowing what it was like to have someone to grow old with, and there were many times where I had taken a path I wish I hadn't with relationships, but somehow I knew that I'd make my life a LOT unhappier and get further away from my spirituality if I decided to go bat for the other team.

edit on 25-12-2010 by Gseven because: content

Cool story, bro.

I will not call you a closet case so need to threaten me with merry christmas. I would say that you are quite out, loud, just need to get proud. I bet your wife knows EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Originally posted by Calender
Even though I'm a tobacco cessation counselor, and disagree with smoking I don't think that those around me who smoke are lesser because of it. ??? I just disagree with their lifestyle. If someone disagrees with homosexuality, that doesn't mean they can't be friendly with and have understanding for homosexuals.

If my smoking friend tells me I'm a bigot because I don't accept his lifestyle, and tries to force it upon me, then I see a problem with that.

edit on 25-12-2010 by Calender because: (no reason given)

Ummmm....

We have been over this and over this and over this. Smoking is something you CHOOSE to do. Being gay is NOT A CHOICE. The only people saying it is a choice have been liars and closet cases so far, none of them could prove it. Which are you going to turn out to be?

Originally posted by RelentlessLurker
reply to post by mydarkpassenger

 

well in the same way you think pedophilia "hurts" kids.

and bestiality "hurts" animals.


some feel homosexuality "hurts" society

No we're not f'n society but often enough we get f'd over by society.
Ha Ha. Your statement is just so ironic.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


So which one is the piano?
You or your cousin?

I've skimmed through some of these comments. I'm gay. Its so exhausting to hear the judgement and idiocracy.
I'm masculine, professional, responsible, etc. Not that those matter. But maybe some of you will judge less. who knows, who cares. People that judge gays keep referring to, and talk about, the SEX. Its NOT about sex. It's chemistry, its comfort and being yourself with someone you love. It's exactly what you heterosexuals feel for the opposite sex. So therefore, It's also NOT a choice. If it were a choice, I would of ran at the chance to be able to choose the more accepted of the 2. It's a lot of stress dealing with the judgement from some people. We all want life to be easy. right? So understand that no one is choosing anything. It's just how things are for some people. In the end. as humans. we all want the SAME things. Someone to love, something to do, and something to hope for. To be Happy! Live and let live folks.

reply to post by SpaceJ

You aren't going to convince me that an animal consents to sex with people.

The reverse is true too, but try telling that to the dog humping your leg without asking.

...sorry, I couldn't resist.

Originally posted by Sinnthia

Originally posted by Gseven
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

I made the choice to be straight....on more than one occasion.

More than one occasion? What the hell does that even mean? What were you between those times you chose to be straight? Does that mean you are usually gay?

(And no, I never "went there", but I've had many opportunities to.) And God help me, if one person crawls out of the woodwork and tries telling me I'm a closet gay....well, I may have to wish them a Merry Christmas and leave it at that. Like many of my friends who have made jokes about being "bi-curious", I too could have gone down that road, but I didn't. Why? An instinctual feeling that I chose to listen to. The same voice I listened to when I said no to drugs when my friends were getting high. The same voice I listened to for a LOT of things in life that I credit my current blessings to. I wish I had listened to it more, to be honest.

You are saying that although you may have wanted to engage in gay sex, you CHOSE not to because of some natural drive inside you? Do you get that at all?

I chose, and I waited a long time before meeting my spouse. For a while, I thought I'd live life without ever knowing what it was like to have someone to grow old with, and there were many times where I had taken a path I wish I hadn't with relationships, but somehow I knew that I'd make my life a LOT unhappier and get further away from my spirituality if I decided to go bat for the other team.

edit on 25-12-2010 by Gseven because: content

Cool story, bro.

I will not call you a closet case so need to threaten me with merry christmas. I would say that you are quite out, loud, just need to get proud. I bet your wife knows EXACTLY what I am talking about.

You read into all that WAY too much! Somehow, I knew someone would.

I made the choice to be straight on more than one occasion....meaning, I've been "propositioned" quite a few times in my life. Every time, I politely declined.

And no, I never said I WANTED to engage in gay sex....what I said was that I could have gone down that "curious" rode if I had chosen to, like several of my friends did. I also could have gone down the "swinger" rode, but I didn't. I also could have gone down the orgy road, but I didn't. I've had all these possibilities enter my reality at some point in time, and I declined all of them. A few too many beers at any of those times, and who knows what secrets I could have carried with me for the rest of my life? But thankfully, I didn't. I do know, however, is that all it takes is once....one time to lay the groundwork. One time to say, "hey, that was pretty intense and wild". Only one time to lead to the second time.....and the third.....and the fourth.....until you've lost count and completely confused about who you are anymore. I know, because I have friends who have done this very thing. Those very friends were lacking in love in some way, and along came someone willing to give it....for a brief moment, it filled that hole, but like all things of the flesh, it never lasted long. A gay friend committed suicide over this very issue...not because of what anyone said to him, but because he hated himself so much for what he had done. He couldn't forgive himself.

So my question is....if gays are so certain that what they're doing is right, then why the need to constantly shove it down everyone's throat and debate it until we all would rather go shove our heads into a big pile of elephant pooh, just to get away from it?

As far as your last comment to me, that's pretty absurd considering my spouse, our kids and our grandkids are the greatest blessings in my life. I've had a long, blissful, eventful marriage that I wouldn't trade for the world. There is nothing I'd EVER want more....in fact, there is nothing more I want period. My spouse is reading this, laughing along with me....if you only knew! Merry Christmas anyway....that wasn't a threat.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts

this trivial BS, Skippy!!!

Cheap shot from a racist!. They don't get much lower than you ... Do they? Calling me that all the way from the US really tough are you not? ..... cowardly is the word! To prove I am stronger than you will ever be I do not need to report this to the mods! But if you want to go ahead!

people who are pro-gay are hypocrites !

being gay is an idea that has an application pretty much like any other idea...
thus the idea is subjected to being either valid or invalid based on principals of common sense and logic...

there is a very interesting rule that lives in one of the religions out there...
it states that if anything is harmful on a large scale then it is forbidden even in minor scales...

saying they are hypocrites because non of them would agree on mass extinction of humanity no matter what convoluted argument some would make about ( ~~~~ )

saying mass extinction because in reality if we all turn gay by time humanity will cease to exist....and NO we will not evolve into something else after this stage as we did not evolve from any previous states either...

so in essence if being gay ( as stated ) is proven harmful on large scales then it makes absolute sense that it is forbidden on minor scales

if there is no benefit from the larger then certainly there can be no benefit from the minor...

NONE
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reply to post by NNightmare_osx

saying they are hypocrites because non of them would agree on mass extinction of humanity no matter what convoluted argument some would make about ( ~~~~ )

saying mass extinction because in reality if we all turn gay by time humanity will cease to exist....and NO we will not evolve into something else after this stage as we did not evolve from any previous states either...

so in essence if being gay ( as stated ) is proven harmful on large scales then it makes absolute sense that it is forbidden on minor scales

if there is no benefit from the larger then certainly there can be no benefit from the minor...

NONE

That has to be one of the most ridiculous and illogical trains of thought I have ever read. Gays have been with us since the dawn of man. In reality there is no chance of everyone turning gay. Therefore no chance of mass extinction because of it hence not harmful to humanity. How do I know this well the millions of years man has been on the earth it has not happened and there is not evidence it is about to happen or will ever happen. Gays are a small minority.

It has not harmed humanity in all time so your assertion it should be condemned as harmful to humanity is wrong and just more ridiculous justification to persecute gays and massage your emotional religious dogma.

Originally posted by NNightmare_osx
thus the idea is subjected to being either valid or invalid based on principals of common sense and logic...

Something severely lacking from your post I fear.

Originally posted by Sinnthia

Originally posted by Calender
Even though I'm a tobacco cessation counselor, and disagree with smoking I don't think that those around me who smoke are lesser because of it. ??? I just disagree with their lifestyle. If someone disagrees with homosexuality, that doesn't mean they can't be friendly with and have understanding for homosexuals.

If my smoking friend tells me I'm a bigot because I don't accept his lifestyle, and tries to force it upon me, then I see a problem with that.

edit on 25-12-2010 by Calender because: (no reason given)

Ummmm....

We have been over this and over this and over this. Smoking is something you CHOOSE to do. Being gay is NOT A CHOICE. The only people saying it is a choice have been liars and closet cases so far, none of them could prove it. Which are you going to turn out to be?

I agree that there are people that are born with a propensity for the same sex. Just like their are people that are born with the propensity to violence, and others with the propensity to become addicted.

What you seem to be missing is that we all have freewill and the ability to control our emotions. Just because someone may have a propensity to violence, that does not give him an excuse to be abusively violent toward other people, he does have the choice to control his violent tendencies. Just as a person that has an addictive personality does have the ability to choose not to involve themselves in activities that may be addictive to them, whether it be gambling, smoking, whatever.

Your argument is that because a person is born with such a propensity they should show no self-control, and must give in to their base urges, is that really a valid justification? While one may empathize for the plight of that person, and understand that fighting his impulses toward a certain character flaw may be a hard struggle, they do have the ability to do so. And those that do are to be commended.

Comments by some posters in this thread have illuminated a point of view I didn't know existed, much less understood. I was confused while reading this thread, because several posters kept saying that they did in fact choose their sexuality. I couldn't understand what they meant, until someone stated that their reason for believing they chose their sexuality was that they could willfully decline when propositioned by someone of the same sex.

I am not saying this to criticize anyone's beliefs or invalidate anyone's opinions. I simply didn't know or understand that this position existed. It simply never occurred to me, because I thought the discussion was about what people are in terms of their sexuality, rather than what people choose to do or not do in terms of the activities they engage in.

The position being taken by some, unless I'm mistaken, is this: Homosexuality itself is a choice, contrary to the belief that it is not a choice and is natural, because one can choose whether or not to engage in sexual activity of any kind, be it homosexual or heterosexual.

This has finally enabled me to understand what people mean when they argue that sexuality is a choice. I can now understand how someone could, using that rationale, argue that homosexuality is “not natural” because in their opinion it is a choice (although I disagree with that argument, as I will explain below.)

While I respect that opinion and peoples right to hold it, I would offer two counter points.

1) There is a distinction between engaging in homosexual or heterosexual sexual activity, and being homosexual or heterosexual. I can choose to not eat chocolate cake. I cannot choose not to like chocolate cake. I can choose not to have sex with my girlfriend, or put sexual arousal out of my mind (with some effort.) I cannot choose not to be attracted to my girlfriend in the first place. I cannot choose to be or not to be heterosexual. Likewise, in my opinion, gay people cannot choose to be or not be gay. Being gay is not a choice. (I am not saying this to suggest that gay people should refrain from having sex with their lovers. I'm just making the distinction between the basis of some people's arguments, and the conclusion they are drawing about sexuality from that basis.)

2) If the basis of the argument that homosexuality is a choice is predicated upon the ability to choose to refrain from (or take part in) sexual acts - be they homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual - then the person making that argument is simultaneously invalidating the status of heterosexuality as “natural" by rendering all forms of sexuality choice-based, because sexuality in that argument is defined by activity/behavior or the lack thereof, rather than by biological/neurological urges, instincts, and feelings.

Therefore, with respect, those arguing that homosexuality is a choice on that basis are actually merely arguing that sexual activity is a choice. Any activity is a choice (not that I personally think the activity in question is a bad thing, but that is neither here not there for the moment.) But what one does and what one is biologically and neurologically are two different things. Biological/neurological urges, feelings, instincts, and drives underpinning any given activity - in my opinion - are not choices.

These are two different arguments (one being behavior, the other being sexuality,) and one does not determine the other. I say this with utmost respect and sensitivity for those who feel differently, and I intend no offense.

reply to post by Sinnthia


Being attracted to children is not a choice either.

reply to post by 547000

Being attracted to children is not a choice either.

Why even bring this up in this thread? that is disgusting! I am not gay but I believe gays are entitled to have all the legal rights hetero's have! Are you trying to link being gay to pedophilia? Just because a particular pedophile is gay does not mean it is related to the gay community as a whole! I know gays who would beat the C%^& out of any pedophile! Not just a meet once relationship as stated earlier in this thread, family members! As I said I am happily married & not gay but that is a cheap shot post to even mention it with the word gay!

reply to post by NNightmare_osx

if there is no benefit from the larger then certainly there can be no benefit from the minor...

Moderate drinking of wine is better than total abstinence, even if alcohol is harmful if used in larger amounts. There are many such things which are benefiting or harmful based on scale, so your generalisation is incorrect.
And considering that large scale of population turning gay is biologically impossible, no matter the legal status of homosexuality, your argument is void and crazy.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

Being attracted to children is not a choice either.

No, of course it is not. Sexual orientation is not a choice. Raping children is a choice, tough.

reply to post by NNightmare_osx


If there was a stupidest post of the month award, you would certainly win with this contribution of yours. Congrats!

reply to post by NNightmare_osx

there is a very interesting rule that lives in one of the religions out there...
it states that if anything is harmful on a large scale then it is forbidden even in minor scales...

saying they are hypocrites because non of them would agree on mass extinction of humanity no matter what convoluted argument some would make about ( ~~~~ )

saying mass extinction because in reality if we all turn gay by time humanity will cease to exist....

So because some unknown religion asserts something, that is a reason for everyone to believe it? I don't think that arguement is going to get you too far.

The part about "if we all turn gay" is another dead end for you (pun intended ) because that could and would never happen. Do I really even need to say any more about that? Surely not.

Almost everyone is a little bit bi. Most today stick to one thing or the other publicly. A lot more do otherwise in private. Some never wander from the path.
Big deal. It is all within the range of behaviours that is normal and hasn't yet led to the fall of society. There is a bigger difference than you realize between what is officially sanctioned and what people actually do in real life.

Just take a closer look behind the scenes of even those countries where they execute gay people, and you will find all kinds of unofficial outlets for the same behaviour.