"I have gay friends, but..." Umm... No, you don't...

I do have gay friends, quite a few, my older brother is gay, but.......whilst I think civil partnerships is good, it shows the love between two people, I don't agree that they should be allowed to marry in the eyes of god, which is what is being pushed at the moment, and my brother even agrees, marriage should be between man and woman, as it was meant.

My brother and his partner have a civil partnership, and they are happy, I'm happy for them, they are good together and his partner is a bloody good laugh. But marriage, at the end of the day IS a religeous thing, and whilst it may not be right, as love is love regardless, it is still frowned upon in christianity.

Lets see, Who is more intolerant here.

Is it the person who may disagrees with certain aspects of a persons lifestyle, but accepts them as a friend anyway?

Or,

Is it the OP who claims you cannot and would not be friends with anyone unless you agree with the way they live their lives?

I think we all know the answer to this one.

I have several good friends that i have had for over 20 years and there is not a single one of them that i dont atleast disagree with some part of the way they live their lives. One drinks almost everyday(probably an alcoholic), another cheats on his wife, another cant seem to hold down a job, and yet we have all been best friends for years.

I dont judge them and and they dont judge me and it works out pretty well.

Its ignorant and intolerant to think that you have to agree with every aspect of someones life to love them and accept them as your friend.

reply to post by AceWombat04


Excellent observation. You stated it well, and I agree with you.

Its my belief that a lot of people struggling against their inner feelings, do in fact focus on their behaviour as the only thing that they can control. They most likely wish that everyone would make the same effort -- misery loves company sort of thing.

What a horrible shame that such people might go their entire lives living a lie. Never being able to give expression to the love one feels inside for another has to be a horrible existence. I have no problem with putting a check and limits on feelings of lust -- I have no sympathy for promiscuity by anyone -- but love between two adults should never have a carpet thrown over it to hide it. No life should be lived devoid of it.

reply to post by seeashrink


I cannot see how you maintain that being gay is a choice. That would presuppose that there is a sexual attraction to both sexes -as in bisexuality- and that the person decides their own sex is preferable. However we know this is not the case. When a person awakes to their individual sexuality and discovers that their physical and emotional attractions are to their own gender there is absolutely nothing that they can do about it despite all the trials and experiments that have been tested over the years, many for monetary reasons alone. Much in the same way that you cannot compel a straight person to desire a member of their own sex even if you offered them a million dollars.
A person with blue eyes can 'choose' to appear to have green eyes if they wear green contact lenses but it is only an appearance. Some gay people for various reasons marry someone of the opposite sex and put on the 'straight' contact lenses but are desperately unhappy living a lie. Also please try to be compassionate. Imagine if the situation was reversed and you as a straight man were coerced by society and religion ( which prevails to this day in many countries) into having a gay lifestyle and not being free to love and have sexual relations freely with a woman of your choice. Gay rights is about a greater morality that encompasses all human beings regardless of our perceived differences in nationality, sexuality, personality etc, etc.

I do not think it is right even having a thread like this as it makes the gay word a talking point. Why?

Look at it this way

I have many many friends, I like them all equally, I will not tell you or anyone else if any of my friends are gay.

If I said one of my friends was gay I would be marking him out, he would then not be just my friend, he would be my gay friend. I do not want any of my friends to be labeled anything, as I said, my friends are just that, my friends.

Peace,

Seq

reply to post by zepher


Good point, I've always seen it as gays have more female chromosomes or something, or the X Y thing. Inside they are female (or the opposite if they are lesbian). At the end of the day, gay people are human too, who cares about their sexual preference. It's like racism, semitism etc, a person is different and doesn't act like you or follow your values, so lets outcast them and fire up the burner. I hope I live to see the day when all of man realises we are all one and the same.

reply to post by woogleuk

But marriage, at the end of the day IS a religeous thing, and whilst it may not be right, as love is love regardless, it is still frowned upon in christianity.

Please give me one reason why I should give a damn about what somebody's religion says when I am not a subscriber to that religion?

Never mind. There is no reason. What Christianity frowns upon is of no concern to me, so stop trying to impose it. K? Just so you know, I am equally non-plussed by what Islam or Judaism likes or dislikes. Non of these has any sway over me or my life decisions except when their proponents try to force it on me.

Go away!

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by AceWombat04

 

Its my belief that a lot of people struggling against their inner feelings, do in fact focus on their behaviour as the only thing that they can control. They most likely wish that everyone would make the same effort -- misery loves company sort of thing.

What a horrible shame that such people might go their entire lives living a lie. Never being able to give expression to the love one feels inside for another has to be a horrible existence. I have no problem with putting a check and limits on feelings of lust -- I have no sympathy for promiscuity by anyone -- but love between two adults should never have a carpet thrown over it to hide it. No life should be lived devoid of it.

I have a love for donuts, but thank God I don't indulge in THAT love affair often. I also like hot dogs, pizza, and cheeseburgers, but the older I get, the more I realize I'm paying the price for the ones I've already eaten. Not to say that straight people are ignoring homosexual feelings. Anyone is capable of anything within their lifetime. We're all capable of murder. We're all capable of theft. We're all capable of having unprotected sex. It's the moments of choice that define us....LEARNED BEHAVIORS!

Heck, we've all wished we could knock out our bosses, or rammed the back end of the person who just cut you off in traffic, but we don't. We withhold. We don't give in to those destructive behaviors. It might FEEL good while we're doing it, but the consequences surely don't.

So yes, for me, it's this easy. I chose not to smoke when I was younger, even though both of my parents were horrible smokers, as well as many of my friends. Sure, I got pressured....a LOT. But I made my choice and I stuck to it. Otherwise, I'd be a smoker today, trying to figure out how to quit....or maybe I'd be dead already. I chose not to overindulge in alcohol, even though my father was an alcoholic. Maybe I just watched a lot of the pain around me, saw the causes, and chose not to take those paths. I viewed homosexuality the same way, since many of my friends entered into it in much the same way I had the opportunity to. The difference was....I chose not to be curious about it, and I have zero regrets.

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by woogleuk

 

Please give me one reason why I should give a damn about what somebody's religion says when I am not a subscriber to that religion?

Beautiful point....thank you. You just perfectly mirrored what straights feel about the homosexual lifestyle. We can go home now!

reply to post by wayno



Eh??? I was saying that marriage is a religeous bond, and, sadly, homosexuality isn't welcome in religeon, thats wrong and bad on religeon, i disagree with it. But I have to follow it to a point, I'm glad that civil partnerships came to be, as it allows gay people to make an expression of their love for each other.


EDIT: I love my brother, and I'm over the moon that he found that special person in John, I don't hate him for being gay, I'm just glad he is happy, and that goes for all my gay friends, happiness is what count, I don't judge them about what they do in their personal life, it doesn't define them as a person, hell, I'll even admit now, when a gay person finds me attractive, I find in flattering

Originally posted by Gseven
You read into all that WAY too much!

Somehow, I knew someone would.

Maybe you just said WAY too much stupid stuff to read? Did you read what you wrote?

I made the choice to be straight on more than one occasion....meaning, I've been "propositioned" quite a few times in my life. Every time, I politely declined.

Like that for example? Do you really like that what you just wrote is still sitting here for people to read? You should be quite ashamed of yourself for saying something like you did above. I have no clue where to even begin addressing what is wrong with the above statement.

And no, I never said I WANTED to engage in gay sex....what I said was that I could have gone down that "curious" rode if I had chosen to, like several of my friends did.

So you are basically just making this all up as you go along. You cannot actually explain how it is a choice at all. All you can say is that you never did anything gay because you never felt that urge or desire to. Gosh, that sounds an awful lot like someone who was born straight to me but you call it a choice if that makes you feel better. I gotta stop laughing.

reply to post by AceWombat04

There is a distinction between engaging in homosexual or heterosexual sexual activity, and being homosexual or heterosexual. I can choose to not eat chocolate cake. I cannot choose not to like chocolate cake.

Not true. Learned behaviors most certainly can be unlearned. How did you learn to like chocolate cake to begin with? You tried it. You liked it. You associated it with pleasure. Badda boom....you now like chocolate cake. That is a learned behavior. Had you never tried it, you wouldn't know you liked it. It may have LOOKED good, but unless you tried it, you'd never know for sure. Heterosexuals can just as easily be "turned" gay by the same notion, and homosexuals have been "reversed" by this same notion. It is a learned behavior that can most certainly can be reversed.

reply to post by seeashrink


The word natural has a tremendous number of different meanings. I just found an entry with about 15 variations. It's no surprise that a lot of arguments revolve around what is and what isn't natural

Of all of those meanings the one that fascinates (and bothers) me the most is this one:

-based on an inherent sense of right and wrong-

In my mind natural is more or less something that emerges independently of human intervention. I am not sure how many of you agree with this definition, the definition I tend to prefer is amoral. I tend to think that morals are a human trait, so it is kind of silly to determine morals from nature, as something that is independent of human will.

Somehow the idea of natural is taken to be as something distinct from human will (human will is assumed to be outside of nature by these people) and anything that happens in nature (outside of human will) is therefore to be taken as an example of what is GOOD. Otherwise, we would not talk about choices being unnatural right? a choice occurs outside of "nature" and inside the realm of the human will.


Please allow me to put this notion into question:

Rape happens outside of the human species. Animals have been witnessed to rape one another. Killing happens outside of the human species. Theft. The list goes on.

Do we need any more proof that nature is amoral?

An argument where a person claims something is "unnatural" reveals much more about their definition of the word natural than anything else. In their mind "natural" is nothing but "According to MY moral compass but erroneously presented as an universal notion"

Point made

-rrr

Originally posted by Gseven
So my question is....if gays are so certain that what they're doing is right, then why the need to constantly shove it down everyone's throat and debate it until we all would rather go shove our heads into a big pile of elephant pooh, just to get away from it?

My grandpa used to say the same about them thar coloreds. My question is, who is shoving what in your face? When is this happening? Anyone forcing their sex life in your face is wrong. I will be glad to help you with that issue. Unfortunately, it does not prove being gay is a choice.

As far as your last comment to me, that's pretty absurd considering my spouse, our kids and our grandkids are the greatest blessings in my life. I've had a long, blissful, eventful marriage that I wouldn't trade for the world. There is nothing I'd EVER want more....in fact, there is nothing more I want period. My spouse is reading this, laughing along with me....if you only knew!

Merry Christmas anyway....that wasn't a threat.

edit on 25-12-2010 by Gseven because: typo

All you have done is say that you are straight. You have always been straight. While other people you knew realized they were gay and experimented or whatever, you just stayed straight. At the same time, you say being straight is a choice and yet for some reason, you have just always been straight and cannot explain that. I am sure your wife is laughing. She is sitting there getting a huge chuckle because she knows how super striaght you are right? So, maybe she can help you explain how you CHOSE to be so super straight since you can not?

Originally posted by Calender
I agree that there are people that are born with a propensity for the same sex. Just like their are people that are born with the propensity to violence, and others with the propensity to become addicted.

I would like to know what scientific journals you have been reading that would equate propensity for behavior with sex drive. Help me out here because that makes NO sense at all.

What you seem to be missing is that we all have freewill and the ability to control our emotions. Just because someone may have a propensity to violence, that does not give him an excuse to be abusively violent toward other people, he does have the choice to control his violent tendencies. Just as a person that has an addictive personality does have the ability to choose not to involve themselves in activities that may be addictive to them, whether it be gambling, smoking, whatever.

So you can choose to become as arouse by a man as you can a woman? I keep asking people to explain how they do that and it has not happened yet. Be the first. Be a hero. Be the ONE that proves this point. I cannot, no matter how hard I try, CHOOSE to be aroused by a female. I just cannot do it. How do you choose to be aroused by the same sex? Explain it to me.

Your argument is that because a person is born with such a propensity they should show no self-control, and must give in to their base urges, is that really a valid justification? While one may empathize for the plight of that person, and understand that fighting his impulses toward a certain character flaw may be a hard struggle, they do have the ability to do so. And those that do are to be commended.

Being born gay and choosing to have sex with someone of the opposite sex is not self control. Are you people serious with this crap?

That is really just stupid. That is really all I can say. That is just about one of the stupidest things I have read on this thread in minutes.

reply to post by Sinnthia


There is no reasoning with you. I've explained several times, (most of which you've probably refused to read), as to why many people feel the way I do. Those of us who feel it IS a choice, is because we made that choice ourselves, or we've been given enough choices in our lives to know that in our older age, things could have turned out a LOT differently.

You obviously disagree, and are unwilling to look beyond what you perceive, or are choosing to "read" into my posts your own interpretations, so there's nothing more to say really. I won't sit here and debate silly insults. It would be the equivalent to me telling you your user name fits you nicely....SINnthia. Now THAT would match your level of argument.

reply to post by AceWombat04


EXACTLY!

People are trying to say that because you can choose who you have sex with or to have sex at all, you can choose to be gay. The problem is that it all falls apart when you actually ask them how they CHOSE to BE ATTRACTED to the opposite sex.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

Being attracted to children is not a choice either.

I am really not sure what your point is unless you are trying to equate two consenting adults with child molestation. Is that your point?

reply to post by rickyrrr


Don't get caught up in the semantics of the definition. People who say it is unnatural are usually referring to it in the context of the Laws of Nature. If an entire animal population were to cease heterosexual activity and only participated in sex with the same sex, that type of animal would go extinct.

Originally posted by Gseven
reply to post by AceWombat04

 

There is a distinction between engaging in homosexual or heterosexual sexual activity, and being homosexual or heterosexual. I can choose to not eat chocolate cake. I cannot choose not to like chocolate cake.

Not true. Learned behaviors most certainly can be unlearned. How did you learn to like chocolate cake to begin with? You tried it. You liked it. You associated it with pleasure. Badda boom....you now like chocolate cake. That is a learned behavior. Had you never tried it, you wouldn't know you liked it. It may have LOOKED good, but unless you tried it, you'd never know for sure. Heterosexuals can just as easily be "turned" gay by the same notion, and homosexuals have been "reversed" by this same notion. It is a learned behavior that can most certainly can be reversed.

I disagree. Liking chocolate is not a learned behaviour. You try it, and your body either likes it, or not. You have no choice in what the outcome would be. You can pretend that you like it or not, eat it or not, but that is all you can choose. Whether it is pleasurable is not the choice you make, that happens automatically by your body.

The same is with sexual orientation. Nobody can choose what he is attracted to, just like you cannot choose what food you like. I sure as hell did not choose to be attracted to women.