Can China Invade Taiwan?

Justicer:
America want China be weaker and weaker,

There is in the future no hope with nuke armed countries. It is therefore desirable for the U.S. to press dictatorships(CCP gov't included) w/ lousy governance who are hollowing out their countries economies for their own gain to stop preaching nationalizm and war to cover their stupidity in their stewardship.

If the U.S. contains the threat, then there is a chance that in the end the mistakes and misteps of the CCP will pull down their government. When that happens, there will be a sigh of relief heard round the world.

sweatmonicaIdo:
U.S. and China will be around for a LONG time.

I only hope your right and in the interum things don't get so twisted that a mgor war breaks out. The fact is that emotionally/socially dictators are several levels below elected in thought and deed and the reason is they don't have to have their words and action dissected by the governed. They don't have to go to the people for the renewal of their license to govern.

Bode Bliss

Originally posted by bodebliss
There is in the future no hope with nuke armed countries. It is therefore desirable for the U.S. to press dictatorships(CCP gov't included) w/ lousy governance who are hollowing out their countries economies for their own gain to stop preaching nationalizm and war to cover their stupidity in their stewardship.

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't America nuke-armed also?

And doesn't America thrive on nationalism and war? At least in current times?

Originally posted by bodebliss
There is in the future no hope with nuke armed countries. It is therefore desirable for the U.S. to press dictatorships(CCP gov't included) w/ lousy governance who are hollowing out their countries economies for their own gain to stop preaching nationalizm and war to cover their stupidity in their stewardship.

If the U.S. contains the threat, then there is a chance that in the end the mistakes and misteps of the CCP will pull down their government. When that happens, there will be a sigh of relief heard round the world.

So the US would be the only Nuke armed country allowed? Why don't you get Britain and France to disarm? Why should the US tell everyone what to do just because it suits the US? China does not even run on a dictatorship. The President can only serve for maximum of 2 terms(10 years) and he has to be voted(not by the general population) in to positions such as the CMC chairman. It maybe a one party political system, but it's certainly not a dictatorship like NK or Iraq before. Also the current generation of leadership is reforming the systems and weeding out corrupt officials, you are still thinking about 20 years ago, when corrupt officials were generally not punished. I think the US is more nationalist than China, in US schools you have to hang the flag in the classrooms. The CPC(CCP) has been holding power for more than 50 years, and there are no signs that they will collapse, since they still enjoy support from the population(I have to say, whatever bad things the CPC may do, the majority of the Chinese population are not affected, and as long as the government does not do anything to serverly affect them and they enjoy good living standard, people generally will support the government and that's why it never collapsed). In the current world situation, the world would give a bigger sigh of relief if the Bush administration was voted out of office.

Originally posted by imAMERICAN
soo the wars being going on for 50 YEARS and its only going to come back now, because it took china that long to get a military capable (which they styl dont have by the way) of invading Taiwan.

If you are not able to find a counter argument, please do not point and laugh at them.

[edit on 26-9-2004 by MrZ]

Originally posted by bodebliss

sweatmonicaIdo:
U.S. and China will be around for a LONG time.

I only hope your right and in the interum things don't get so twisted that a mgor war breaks out. The fact is that emotionally/socially dictators are several levels below elected in thought and deed and the reason is they don't have to have their words and action dissected by the governed. They don't have to go to the people for the renewal of their license to govern.

Bode Bliss

I do think both will be around for a while. China won't invade Taiwan for a long time. They're gonna dos ome muscle flexing and that but, if they do try to pull off anything the US can simply stop trading with them. And China wouldn't want that. Last year their trade profit with the US was in excess of $800 billion AUD. So until China is a superpower and can match economic and military strength with the US, they won't risk anything. It might look like they are, but I don't think they will.

Originally posted by D
I do think both will be around for a while. China won't invade Taiwan for a long time. They're gonna dos ome muscle flexing and that but, if they do try to pull off anything the US can simply stop trading with them. And China wouldn't want that. Last year their trade profit with the US was in excess of $800 billion AUD. So until China is a superpower and can match economic and military strength with the US, they won't risk anything. It might look like they are, but I don't think they will.

That depends on the paces Taiwan Independence force are pressing forward. The war may come in 2 months, 2 years, or in a decade.

Mainland China has about 30 billion US dollar deficit in trading with Taiwan. I am puzzled why Chinese Governemnt do not act and stop financing Taiwan Armament. "$800 billion AUD" is absurd, you know that current total GDP of China is about 1400 Billion USD, 80 billion will be the correct number.

sweatmonicaIdo:
Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't America nuke-armed also?

And doesn't America thrive on nationalism and war? At least in current times?

Yes, we have nukes.The U.S. would gladly negotiate disarmament in a democratic world.

MrZ:
So the US would be the only Nuke armed country allowed

The U.S. would gladly negotiate disarmament in a democratic world.

MrZ:
I think the US is more nationalist than China, in US schools you have to hang the flag in the classrooms.

We hang those flags so all those immigrants from all over the world can know which country they are now in.

MrZ:
The CPC(CCP) has been holding power for more than 50 years, and there are no signs that they will collapse, since they still enjoy support from the population

Oh ,there are plenty of signs of collapse . You just are'nt looking for them.The head honcho in charge of china's finances said china almost collapsed in 2000. You must have missed that article.

MrZ:
I have to say, whatever bad things the CPC may do, the majority of the Chinese population are not affected

You would be the only one saying that.

800 million chinese peasants can't even go to the cities let alone enjoy the prosperity that abides there. 50-150 million illegal workers have no support in the cities and work for even less wages than the low wage city workers already get. They are mistreat often short-changed wages and the government turns a blind eye.

This from the taipei Times:
Hu is confronted by enormous domestic problems, including 40 percent unemployment and underemployment, an inadequate healthcare system, rampant pollution, a corrupt banking sector, inefficient state-owned enterprises and an uncertain supply of energy and raw materials for China's growing economy.

Well MrZ it is obvious you care little for the truth, as you dream of a commie paradise, but like so many have no idea nor care for the details of what that might be like.

The reality is very bleak and gets bleaker by the month.

I may not be rich nor powerful, but what I have is mine.

I read an article about how blocks and blocks of traditional housing in Beijing were destroyed and the owner-residents were told to get out w/o compensation to make way for high rises.

Dream sweet dreams of a commie paradise,MrZ , because of the reality you know nothing.


Bode Bliss

Originally posted by bodebliss
The U.S. would gladly negotiate disarmament in a democratic world.

Oh, and you know this because you are the president, or do you simply assume. You can not assume the US will. Why doesn't the US disarm first and let India monitor disarmament and then wait for India to disarm? India is a democracy. People(and countries) generally like to keep things that others don't have.

Originally posted by bodebliss
We hang those flags so all those immigrants from all over the world can know which country they are now in.

Is that not a form of nationalism? Immigrants come from other countries, by putting up the US flag in children's classrooms and getting them to say the pledge of allegiance, it helps with nationalist education. The truth is, every nation has nationalist education, when one raises a flag, or sing the national anthem, it is nationalism, almost all schools in all countries does this sometimes in one form or another. And I can tell you, the Chinese textbooks, do not encourage extream nationalism. I can supply you with scans of Chinese textbooks if you wish to see them. I bought them while in Beijing and these are the textbooks used in Beijing schools. I have both primary and secondary.

Originally posted by bodebliss
Oh ,there are plenty of signs of collapse . You just are'nt looking for them.The head honcho in charge of china's finances said china almost collapsed in 2000. You must have missed that article.

And who might this head honcho be, please provide evidence. The Chinese government can finance itself and does so through borrowing from state banks and issuing government bonds.

Originally posted by bodebliss
You would be the only one saying that.

800 million chinese peasants can't even go to the cities let alone enjoy the prosperity that abides there. 50-150 million illegal workers have no support in the cities and work for even less wages than the low wage city workers already get. They are mistreat often short-changed wages and the government turns a blind eye.

The travel restrictions are for urban planning, there are already more than 100 cities in China with more than 1 million population, and most of those cities do not have the infrastructure to support a mass migration, they also don't have enough jobs to support those who want to migrate. You must understand, urbanising 800 million people takes a long time. The government has recently ordered unpaid wages to be paid, it will get better over time, recently, the government paid something like 360billion Yuan to unpaid migrant workers. Also, let me clarify what I said, the majority of the population are not oppressed or thrown into jail. If you regard the bad things as no democracy or freedom to migrate or earn a high wage, then we are talking on different levels. But the basic needs of the population are generally satisfied for most people, such as food, clothes and electricity, and as long as it continues to improve, I believe the CPC will be able to hold on to power.

Originally posted by bodebliss
Well MrZ it is obvious you care little for the truth, as you dream of a commie paradise, but like so many have no idea nor care for the details of what that might be like.

The reality is very bleak and gets bleaker by the month.

I may not be rich nor powerful, but what I have is mine.

I read an article about how blocks and blocks of traditional housing in Beijing were destroyed and the owner-residents were told to get out w/o compensation to make way for high rises.

Dream sweet dreams of a commie paradise,MrZ , because of the reality you know nothing.

I know that the traditional housing are being demolished in Beijing for high rises and alot of residents aren't being paid compensation due to corrupt government officials, and I hope it will get better with anti-corruption reforms the government has announced. I also know in some cities, especially the North-Eastern cities unemployment is as high as 30%, but 40% unemployment for the nation as a whole, I believe is over exaggerated because many workers work on contract jobs, like the 100 million who drift through the cities. That 40% includes underemployment which accounts for a significant part of the figures.

You can not simply say that I know nothing about the truth because I can say the same to you. I know what I know and you know what you know from what we read, and hear. I have been to China many times but even then I am not going to tell you that you know nothing about the truth.
Please do not make personal attacks on other members just because they have a different view and please do not assume what I want things to be. If you have an effective argument then express it fairly. If you do not, then please do not point and make unfounded accusations(eg I dream of a commie paradise). I think you have already settled on me being a Communist simply because I made arguments that you see as "pro-China(or counter to anti-china posts)=pro-Communist=He must be a Communist"

btw. Communism is a political system in which everyone is equal and it is also an economic system in which everyone makes a equal contribution to the economy and receive an equal return. It is not a system to oppress people.
Because only people repress people. Communism simply makes it easier to take control of power, but then again, many other forms of political system can also make it easier to gain power.


[edit on 26-9-2004 by MrZ]

[edit on 26-9-2004 by MrZ]

[edit on 26-9-2004 by MrZ]

Lay off the personal attacks bodebliss, can't you be a bit more mature than that? I think that you should be thankful for gaining a different perspective on events no matter how much you don't like it. It's called learning.

My mistake zcheng. Just looked it up, it was the trade import and export volume that was that high, not the trade profit.

[edit on 26/9/04 by D]

Originally posted by bodebliss


Well MrZ it is obvious you care little for the truth, as you dream of a commie paradise, but like so many have no idea nor care for the details of what that might be like.

The reality is very bleak and gets bleaker by the month.

I may not be rich nor powerful, but what I have is mine.

I read an article about how blocks and blocks of traditional housing in Beijing were destroyed and the owner-residents were told to get out w/o compensation to make way for high rises.

Dream sweet dreams of a commie paradise,MrZ , because of the reality you know nothing.


Bode Bliss

firstly that is not a comunist goverment.
secondly stop bashing comunist.
thirdly so what we have houses leveled here all the time for new flats to be buiilt, it aint nothing new.

Originally posted by MrZ


btw. Communism is a political system in which everyone is equal and it is also an economic system in which everyone makes a equal contribution to the economy and receive an equal return. It is not a system to oppress people.
Because only people repress people. Communism simply makes it easier to take control of power, but then again, many other forms of political system can also make it easier to gain power.

]

firstly in comunism there is no money.
no it doesnt in comunism you look after yourself and the person your doing a favour for because thats how things work.
you do a favour for him and he does a favour for you that way you get the stuff you ned with out money.

communism ONLY works in theory. All Marx based systems are flawed in that respect an excellent historical example is the Plymouth colony in Massachuets. It was Marxist before Marx and it failed until they reverted to Capiatalism. Capitalism works in the real world Marxism or any other Comministesque system will never work in the real world outside of the micro level.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by MrZ


btw. Communism is a political system in which everyone is equal and it is also an economic system in which everyone makes a equal contribution to the economy and receive an equal return. It is not a system to oppress people.
Because only people repress people. Communism simply makes it easier to take control of power, but then again, many other forms of political system can also make it easier to gain power.

]

firstly in comunism there is no money.
no it doesnt in comunism you look after yourself and the person your doing a favour for because thats how things work.
you do a favour for him and he does a favour for you that way you get the stuff you ned with out money.

Originally posted by Apollyon
communism ONLY works in theory. All Marx based systems are flawed in that respect an excellent historical example is the Plymouth colony in Massachuets. It was Marxist before Marx and it failed until they reverted to Capiatalism. Capitalism works in the real world Marxism or any other Comministesque system will never work in the real world outside of the micro level.

MARX BASED!!!how dare you !
comunism is not MARX based !
comunism can work it only doesnt work with money still existing.
capatilism is the route to evil the best way is repuplic or democratic.
they will work as long as there are at least a few good poeple in the world.

My Bad, Marx and Engels had NOTHING to do with Communism.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Apollyon
communism ONLY works in theory. All Marx based systems are flawed in that respect an excellent historical example is the Plymouth colony in Massachuets. It was Marxist before Marx and it failed until they reverted to Capiatalism. Capitalism works in the real world Marxism or any other Comministesque system will never work in the real world outside of the micro level.

MARX BASED!!!how dare you !
comunism is not MARX based !
comunism can work it only doesnt work with money still existing.
capatilism is the route to evil the best way is repuplic or democratic.
they will work as long as there are at least a few good poeple in the world.

Originally posted by Apollyon
My Bad, Marx and Engels had NOTHING to do with Communism.

no they had a hand but its not totaly based on marxism.
i think mr Eduard Bernstein might have something to do with it though.
though he was a marxist he argued with them to use a diffrent way to use some marxist ideas YET it is not marxism totaly realy.

DevilWasp,

To quote Homer Simpson: In Theory Lisa, Communism works, In Theroy.

I simply don't see how a system can overcome human nature. Unless we are lobotomized, the enevitable competition will eventually surface. More to the point, why would I spend 15 years in med school when I can get along by answering phone (unless thats what I want to do). ? As Homer said, in theroy it works, but is there a long lasting example that you can point too?

Animal Farm by Orwell is another good reference on this. Even if you start out with good intentions, its enevitable that human nature will rear its ugly head and bring it all crashing down.

Originally posted by FredT
DevilWasp,

To quote Homer Simpson: In Theory Lisa, Communism works, In Theroy.

I simply don't see how a system can overcome human nature. Unless we are lobotomized, the enevitable competition will eventually surface. More to the point, why would I spend 15 years in med school when I can get along by answering phone (unless thats what I want to do). ? As Homer said, in theroy it works, but is there a long lasting example that you can point too?

Animal Farm by Orwell is another good reference on this. Even if you start out with good intentions, its enevitable that human nature will rear its ugly head and bring it all crashing down.

yeah ur right thats the problem , human behavior is a pain in the @ss

MrZ:
And who might this head honcho be, please provide evidence. The Chinese government can finance itself and does so through borrowing from state banks and issuing government bonds.

4 1: Zhu Rongi :Chinese Premier Zhu Rongji recently told a television audience in his country that China's economy would have "collapsed" without the state stimulus spending currently taking Beijing's government debt to record levels.

And I heard another chinese leader quoted as saying the same though I haven't as yet located the quote.

Yes , I'm sure the the hierachy of CCP is patting itself on the back everytime peasant under glass is served at one of their chinese communist party functions , but what conditions the common man faces they know not because dictators don't hear those voices.

Bode



[edit on 9/28/2004 by bodebliss]

My personall opinion is that China will not invade Taiwan, the whole economics would fall down. But the other thing is if the've got the right to invade taiwan, I think they have... coz Taiwan was under china.

Flanky,
You and Zcheng are about to become good friends.

No ,china does not under international law have the right to invade. They are just slowly moving in that direction hoping no one will eventually object.

I kinda wish you would sorta read the prior 33 pages on this post.

Bode

China will not care about casulties in the case of Taiwan because throughout history the goals of Chinese people is to unite China as one, EVERYONE in China agrees about this. If the government can not keep China united then the government is viewed as a failure.

China is no longer a Communist country, they just keep the name thats all. The government tossed away all the basic rules of being communist since they started the economic revolution.

In the case when US send their carriers to the strait, I advice them to be ready to face a retaliation like no other because this issue WILL NOT silence without thousands of nuclear weapons detonating and covering every square centimetre of the mainland. In case of MAD the Chinese race will not be destroyed because we have as much as 100 million Chinese people living outside our country.

If China will ever face a trade sanction then US should prepare for quite a bit of Complaining from every company in the country as investments stop returning profit. Quite a lot of time will be needed to rebuild all the factories in other countries.

We Chinese people do not dislike any other race in the world. You have no idea how many Americans there are in the city where I live which is QingDao.

And to some Americans out there, patriotism and being blinded by patriotism are very much different things.