Can China Invade Taiwan?

COWlan
it is interesting that u say that the carriers would be destroyed by thousands on nuclear weapons, considering china's nuclear arsenal is a mere fraction of the size and strength of Russia and the US (on the par of about 1/250 or more...).
On top of that geography is a good course to take
carriers do not require to actually be in the strait to hit china
ever heard of a chain-saw?
stike packages from a carrier group can reach out over a thousand miles...
besides...the bomber fleet would have no trouble picking apart the chinese defense grid
u need several brigades worth of S-300's or better to defend a small portion of china...
anyway
on the topic of Taiwan being invaded by CHina...
that'd only happen if Taiwan declared official independebce
which would result in a masive strike by china via two ways:
a)by missile strike
b)by naval invasion
a)can't really be stopped at this time...
maybe in another decade though
b)can be held off long enough for a CBG to get on the seen and a second within a week w/air suport by the Air force...
in regards to an earlier comment about saying the pledge...
..thats just for show, no one says it as they get older...(i.e.-high school)

Originally posted by COWlan


China is no longer a Communist country, they just keep the name thats all. The government tossed away all the basic rules of being communist since they started the economic revolution.

Oh OK, what about the supression of the people and totalitarianism of the Government
The economy is the only thing which has progessed, individual freedoms haven't.

Originally posted by mad scientist

Originally posted by COWlan


China is no longer a Communist country, they just keep the name thats all. The government tossed away all the basic rules of being communist since they started the economic revolution.

Oh OK, what about the supression of the people and totalitarianism of the Government

The economy is the only thing which has progessed, individual freedoms haven't.

Not entirely true... though yes the government is Communist... though they prefer the term "socialist"

Look up individual property rights etc and you will see china has made leaps and bounds over the past 20 years

Originally posted by COWlan
China is no longer a Communist country, they just keep the name thats all. The government tossed away all the basic rules of being communist since they started the economic revolution.

Hmmmm change the name but its still a totalatarian repressive regime. You can call it anything you want, but the fact remains it is a repressive socialist government. As my granfather put it: You can;t shine S%$T

COWlan:
If China will ever face a trade sanction then US should prepare for quite a bit of Complaining from every company in the country as investments stop returning profit. Quite a lot of time will be needed to rebuild all the factories in other countries.

The U.S. cut off Japan from trading w/ the U.S. when it did not like the fact that Japan had invaded China and it caused WWII . I don't see that it could not happen again. In some ways the U.S. does take the long view.

As for your saber rattling, there have been polls inside and outside china about Taiwan and all of them have returned the same response. Chinese don't care about Taiwan. Only the CCP cares about Taiwan because they need something to hold the attention of the people other than their own failed leadership.

Bode

COWlan:
In case of MAD the Chinese race will not be destroyed because we have as much as 100 million Chinese people living outside our country.

Whaaaat? Do you really think the chinese think and act as one?

Well if they got that whip out of the hand of the CCP overlord, I'm sure we'd see a different story.

Bode


[edit on 9/30/2004 by bodebliss]

Originally posted by bodebliss

COWlan:
In case of MAD the Chinese race will not be destroyed because we have as much as 100 million Chinese people living outside our country.

Whaaaat? Do you really think the chinese think and act as one?

Well if they got that whip out of the hand of the CCP overlord, I'm sure we'd see a different story.

Bode


[edit on 9/30/2004 by bodebliss]

I think he's talking about just the survival of the Chinese people in the event of MAD. As with anyone from any country, the survival and preservation of their nation is of high importance regardless of the government. I'm sure the American people and the people of any other country, love their country even if their government was oppressing them. The Chinese are in that same position.

Some of you need to stop seeing the Chinese as a constant threat. Do you think that the majority of the Chinese know whats going on with Taiwan? The majority of them are like the majority of the world. They just want to make a better life for themselves, live life and be happy.

Not all people in Taiwan want independence, a few month ago the president only received 51 percent of the total votes, ChenShuiBian wanted full independence. 49 percent supported the other presidential candidate which wanted no independence and supports the reintegration of Taiwan into China. I am a Chinese Canadian, I go back to CHina every summer and I can assure you if the language was Chinese and the people were multiethical then China will be extremely similar to USA and Canada.

[edit on 30-9-2004 by COWlan]

personally i think china really can't or can be stuffed taking over anything right now there focusing on the olympics i mean they already have themselfs first on the medal tables



and they truley don't have resources to build up a cold iron hand of feary

I think D said it the best.

They may not like the government, but that doesn't mean they're gonna welcome America with open arms. They'll defend their country to the last man, if not the government.

Same thing in America. We don't like the government, but we love the country.

D:
They just want to make a better life for themselves, live life and be happy.

I'll drink to that!

And sweatmonicaIdo is right on!



Taiwan is just now throwing off the authoritarian shackles. The point Cowlan tried to make has become a moving target. In another 10 years I suspect another 30% will see freedom either through defacto independence or declared independence as the only way.

The sad point here is, if the Taiwanese had broken the KMT's(chinese nationalist party) rule 20 years earlier they would have declared independence in a different environment and it would be unassailable history now.

Bode

Originally posted by lepracornman
personally i think china really can't or can be stuffed taking over anything right now there focusing on the olympics i mean they already have themselfs first on the medal tables

You know this is a political dimention I have not thought of as of yet. They will behave themselves till at least after the Olympics for sure. Good point.

I was catching up on the last 15 or so pages, then I almost had a heart attack on page 32. Mr.Z stated that China would veto power and able to veto a resolution in the U.N. from trying to defend Taiwan if they invaded it!
The more I read all of this crap the more I'm thankful that I don't have to deal with this crap in a debate at my University; cause no one would have the balls to try to say this s#@# out loud.

Also the whole your ancestors killed the Aboriginals is getting rather old, it is now generally accepted by Historians that smallpox killed of 90% of Aboriginals throughout North America, Central America and South America. The Europeans did not even know that they were causing the deaths, not until the 18th century when they found out what a microorganism was. When they made first successful vaccines for smallpox, most of the Aboriginals would not take it because they believed that it would make their women barren, because they were so distrustful of the white men!

Guys, I live in China. I don't think some of you have the mindset of the Chinese. They have the concept of "face," or responsibility. I'll give a few examples:

A child does poorly on a test. The child is just dumb, and the parents can't help it. Some other parents hear about it, and if the child's parents do not beat the child, they lose face and respect.

Zhang Xiao Jie gets fired from her job. If she does not do something to retaliate (or does not complain loudly), she loses face and respect.

Now, let's put this into the China-Taiwan issue.

China gets Taiwan running away from it. China must oliberate/recapture Taiwan to re-gain face.

Understand?

Yer I understand ... but thats exactly what everyone has been saying for the last 800 pages

Originally posted by FredT


Hmmmmmm, are you saying that the PLA liberated Tibet? Eliminated slavery? and did what export to slave labor factories in Shanghi?

no that should be done by Indians! Indians living in India that is! Not the ones earning money in casinoes in the US!!
Just trying to lighten the mood guys!

[edit on 12-10-2004 by Daedalus3]

Didn't the PRC recently have a shift in political leadership?

It used to be power was not directly vested in one man. You had Chairmanship of the Party, President of the Nation, and Head of the Armed Forces.

The two most senior figures were opposed philosophically. One retired recently. And now all three posts are held by one man, who is recognised as what we call "a hardliner" military supporter opposed to an independent Taiwan.

Am I wrong and even if I am not does this change anything.

Another thing was that for the first thing since the handback of HK, the PLA units now stationed there came out into the streets for a "demonstration of force" on the eve of Pro Democracy rallies. HKers reportedly used to be more concerned about making money until recently, and its making the bosses in the PRC nervous...you know ....thin edge of the wedge stuff.

If nothing else it could set the scene for an accidental conflict.

I'd be interested on comments about the above from any Chinese freinds out there, or people better informed than me, period.

As someone else said in the end we all love our countries, not necessarily our governments....Most Australians wouldnt go to war for John Howard but they'd throw a fit if a PLA division was" invited" into Papua New Guinea on our doorstep. Americans the Same. Chinese likewise if a USN Task Force started pounding PLA-AF and PLA-N bases on the mainland in response to an exchange around Taiwan.

Note how when we went into Iraq, some groups who hated and were suppressed by Saddam went psycho on coalition forces when we entered and occuppied the country. Extreme Right and Left Americans would have done the same if there was a bigger boy on the block rumbling down Broadway NY, or Pennsylvania Ave, DC, trying to convince you they were bombing you to liberate you from Bush. Right?

Hi, I am a Chinese descendant living in Brazil... My opinion:

* I'm against Communism or any dictatorial government, and HATE Mao Zedong (or Mao TseTung) - he was a stupid idealist that destroyed China; just see the Communist / Socialist nations nowadays. I'd prefer KMT win that civil war.

* The Chinese were always peaceful, always through China's history they just fought for peace in the kingdom. Zhang He (or something) sailed in many American and African countries in the XV century, left descendants, but didn't colonized them like the Europeans did.

* What I disapprove are the Sino-Indian war (a border thing), I think the Chinese forgot what Europeans and Japanese did for them. Or just wanted revenge, maybe; also what they are doing with Tibet is indeed wrong.

* Europeans/Americans killed almost all the native Indian people in America (north and south). There is also that "Destino Manifesto (dunno how to say this in English) thing" and Mexico lost 50% of it's territory to you.

* You Americans think you have rights to invade any country, you own this world... Iraq, Afghanisthan, Kosovo, Nicaragua and et cetera. You think you're right, you fought against the evil and such, because you were educated to think so. You don't understand the Chinese and their culture.

* Taiwan is a renegade province, part of China, even US agrees with this. IMO China should invade Taiwan as soon as possible, or the people living there will belive they aren't Chinese... What wouldn't be good for us

nice opinion poirot but i dont see why you dont like comunism , i know many see it as evil but in truth it aint. in comunism there is no state ,no countires, no army and no money.

also yeah america/britain/allies has screwed up and got into fights they shouldnt have, but they went in because they thought they could change the pain/cruelty (excuse spelling)/ dictatorship or what ever because they got taught to do the right thing. mabye doing the right thing aint the right thing to do.

Originally posted by mad scientist


Oh OK, what about the supression of the people and totalitarianism of the Government

thats not what comunism is, just a side note.