If Jesus was God, why did he pray to himself?

Originally posted by Rustami
again I ask what stands out or why were He and his followers(are) persecuted/murdered

What stands out? Are we to believe in the accusation of the Jews against Christ and his disciples or should we instead trust on what his disciples say?

The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.” Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead— whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” (Acts 5:27-32)

Notice what Peter and the other apostles said? "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead" not "The God of our ancestors appeared in the flesh, died, and rose from the dead." The apostles said that the Father(the only true God) raised Jesus(a man) from the dead. Again, God raised Jesus from the dead.

Can you not see the difference? Are you going to deny what the apostles declared in the above verses? But what am I saying? Of course, you will.

reply to post by bijouramov

I lay down My life that I may take it again.-John10

See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.-Mal4.5

I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him-Matt17

his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.-Luke10

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.-Matt24.35

unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever-Heb1.8

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”-John 20.28

So the men marveled, saying, “Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”-Matt8

And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.-Matt14

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God-Matt4

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.-1John5

And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men-Rev21.3

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.-Rev19.13

reply to post by Rustami


I knew you were going to post another series of verses like a trigger-happy grunt.

I'd like for you to try and refute what the apostles declared on my previous post. Let's focus on that one first before we move on to yours, what do you say?

Stop throwing verses like crazy and then ducking without even leaving a bit of explanation for each one. So...what are your thoughts with regards to what Peter and the other apostles said? They said "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead— whom you killed by hanging him on a cross".

Do you agree with them or not?

We are waiting for your answer, friend.

First I should just say, I believe Jesus is the “son of God” and not God himself. I also think the Trinity was brought in, so as to try and clear up the confusion and to try to avoid the constant debating and disagreements between various Christian groups at the time. Of course there is no signpost in the Bible which says, “Here is the Trinity”’; it was in reality, set up by men.

I don’t accept the Trinities definition of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit relationship, for just some of the following reasons.

Proverbs 8:22
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

Some, but not all Christian denominations, accept that this verse is prophetically describing Jesus, who was there in the beginning with God/Father.

I recommend anyone, read from Proverbs 8:22-36. I personally believe they are about Jesus and not just a nice story or poem describing wisdom.



Jesus at the Temple

In the verse John 10:30, where Jesus says, “I and the Father are one." I believe the Jews misunderstood what Jesus was stating, in that they thought he was saying he was God and therefore accused him of being blasphemous. The Jews of course were wrong, because that’s not what Jesus meant, at all.

Further down in the passage, Jesus tries to explain what he meant by “I and the Father are one." By saying… “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?”. The Jews again tried to seize him, either because they still didn’t accept it or because they considered the term “son of God” to be blasphemous also.



Jesus trial

Matthew 26:62-64
Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."

"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

There are two important points here…

Firstly, in the above verse, Jesus himself when questioned, admits to being the Christ/Messiah and to being the “Son of God”

Secondly, Jesus uses the phrase the “Son of Man” will be sitting etc etc. Now the “son of man”, is a term from the chapter of Daniel, in the Old Testament, which was used by Daniel, to denote the coming Messiah, which Jesus has already admitted to being, in the above verse.

So Jesus is really saying that he is the Messiah and that he will be sitting at the right hand of the Almighty one i.e. God the Father.



Jesus resurrection and Ascension

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

God cannot return to himself, only the “son of God “ can do that. Also Jesus uses the phrase, return to “my God”, if Jesus was God/Father, he would not be using such a phrase to begin with.



God Speaking through Jesus

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

This is where things get slightly more complicated and is the reason why I believe there is so much confusion on this topic.

Jesus uses the phrase “These words you hear are not my own”, quite a few times in the four Gnostic Gospels. This either indicates, that Jesus hears Gods voice and then relays Gods words to his disciples, or Jesus has God living and speaking through him directly, whilst also being able to speak for himself (Jesus) and on his own behalf. Which ever of these two things you believe, God must be speaking through Jesus.


- JC

reply to post by bijouramov


the truth is this was the first question asked- "so what do you think about the voice Paul heard when he first believed?" is this problematic for you, suppose it has to do with Paul calling him Lord -being this has now been asked at least three times now? suppose the many " trigger happy grunt scriptures" obviously are also, do they show Jesus/Apostles/Prophets saying more than just where you stop short? you have alot to attempt to "refute", the dilema or burden here is'nt mine, I think near everybody the world over knows at least the first natural aspect of Jesus being a man, born of a woman, Juda etc,

Jesus means in Hebrew: "God saves."

The title "Lord" indicates divine sovereignty. To confess or invoke Jesus as Lord is to believe in his divinity. "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit'" -1 Cor 12:3

at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.-Phil2.10

I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?-Is6

so the LORD Almighty will come down
to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.-Is33.4

Christ himself never taught or even hinted anything about the so-called trinity anywhere in the Bible. So how come all these religious organizations who call themselves "christian churches" uphold the doctrine of the trinity?

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.-1John5

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost-Matthew28

For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
-Matt18

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.-Heb10

And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.-Ecc4.12

For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.-1Cor6

Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.-1Cor12

Finally, the Almighty God is immortal and since He declared that He does not change, it is impossible to accept that He can die or that He will even contemplate to experience death for awhile, for whatever reason. In Christ's case, well, he died.

the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.-Acts13.37

Jesus lives forever-Heb7

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.-Heb9.22

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.-1John4.10

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.-1Cor15

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.-Heb13.8

But he says to the Son,
You're God, and on the throne for good-Heb1.8TM

Kiss the Son-Psalm2

reply to post by Joecroft

Some, but not all Christian denominations, accept that this verse is prophetically describing Jesus, who was there in the beginning with God/Father.

News to me, I've never heard that chapter as being about Jesus.
One day the Pharisees were talking to Jesus about how great it was that they were Jews and Jesus said, "You should pay attention about the one who you think is your god" (to paraphrase)
I believe that what Jesus could have said instead is, "You jerks, I am the same person who you think of as Jehovah, and what I know about who God really is, is so beyond your comprehension. And now when the one who is the Revelation of God is in your midst, you wish to quibble about trivialities."
Do some research on the oldest manuscripts of the New Testament where when reference was made to Jesus, they had used a code that stood for Jehovah and then later copiers did not understand what it meant and just filled in what seemed to fit, the name, Jesus. There are historians who believe that the earliest Christians equated Jesus to who was known by the Hebrews as, Jehovah.

Originally posted by Rustami
the truth is this was the first question asked- "so what do you think about the voice Paul heard when he first believed?" is this problematic for you, suppose it has to do with Paul calling him Lord -being this has now been asked at least three times now?

What about it? Christ spoke to Paul while the latter was on his way to Damascus. And as to why Paul called him Lord, well, isn't it only right to call someone so, whom God made lord and heir of all things? I have no problems recognizing Jesus Christ as my lord and my savior. What you are trying to imply is that I should recognize him as my God as well. You want me to base that conclusion to what Thomas said? That "My lord and my God" thing? We can discuss John 20:28, if you want. Or Isaiah 6:8. Any verse that you think supports your claim, actually. My only request is that we focus on a particular verse alone. The problem is that you keep on posting groups of passages as if they support your claim, which they don't. For example you posted:

Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.-1Cor12

--which pertains to the church of Christ and not of your Trinity. You also used 1 Corinthians 6:16-17 which does not speak of Christ being God but of a warning against sexual immorality. Here's the proof:

"Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh'.But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality." (1 Corinthians 15:18)

See what I mean? I propose that you give one particular passage in the Bible which you think supports your claim that Jesus is God and we will focus on that and see if your understanding of it will stand under scrutiny.

reply to post by bijouramov

That "My lord and my God" thing?

What kind of "thing" do you think that is?
Some stupid thing?
A thing that sophisticated people know better than to put any significance to?
My suggestion would be to go to
net.bible.org...
there is a search box there and type in the word "god" and hit the search button.
That will bring up all the verses having a word that ends up being translated as god.
When you click on a verse in the list, it will have it in the original language. Pay close attention to the spelling and click on that Hebrew or Greek word. That will bring up another page with the various spellings. Click on the one that matches the spelling in your verse you started with. That brings up a list of all the verses that have that particular form of the word in it. Then you can see how that word has been translated in other places and you can see the context of it.
I think if you did this and worked at it until you you have done the whole Bible, you would have a different view of the word god.

Originally posted by Rustami

I think near everybody the world over knows at least the first natural aspect of Jesus being a man, born of a woman, Juda etc,

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

"For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough." (2 Corinthians 11:4)

--the second verse was written to the members of the first church of Christ during the time of the apostles to serve both as a rebuke and a warning to those who believe those who preaches a different Jesus. But what kind of Jesus did the apostles preach which they warned the followers to guard against those who would try to twist it? Let's read what apostle Peter said:

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know." (Acts 2:28, NKJV)

How about apostle Paul? Did he preach in accordance with Peter? Let's see:

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5)

Even when Christ has ascended to heaven, He remains a man. The Bible attests to this truth:

"Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself." (Psalms 80:17, NKJV)

The man being referred to here is none other than Christ Himself:

"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God." (Colossians 3:1, NIV)


And above all, how did the Lord Jesus Christ describe himself?

"But now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this." (John 8:40)

"And while they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst. But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. And He said to them, 'Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have'." (Luke 24:36-39, New American Standard Bible)

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
Now as a person who is not a Christian. I know what I'm talking about here. "laughs to myself gently." I came across this blog and was curious as to what Christians have to say to this article.
Source Click the source.
Now I know Christians have different views on Jesus and the concept of God. The concept of God in Judaism and Islam is similar. God in Judaism God in Islam It would be a sin in Judaism and Islam to claim God as a human. Which is idolatry. I know Some of you would post the comment Jesus was at the time of Abraham. Then why didn't he appear in human forum and build God as an idol? The same with destroying the idols his brother created? I would imagine he would create a little Jesus statue figure if he spoke to Jesus.

Jesus prayed to himself because he was human, just like us!

He prayed for the forgivness of man.

The devil is the ruler of Earth. His number is 666 in man and 999 in women. In the asian culture he is 888 and portrayed as the red dragon! He is isolated and doesn't care about anything or anybody but himself. This will be displayed sooner ratherthan later!

Jesus prayed to forgive man and women of the sins they created. He beleived in a spirit higher than the devil itself as the spirit of the devil was just a beginning.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

What kind of "thing" do you think that is?
Some stupid thing?
A thing that sophisticated people know better than to put any significance to?

Forgive me if I have offended thee, o sophisticated one. But what prompted Thomas to exclaim, "My Lord and my God"? The account in the Book of John narrates:

"Thomas (called Didymus) was not with the followers when Jesus came. Thomas was one of the twelve. The other followers told Thomas, 'We saw the lord'. Thomas said, 'I will not believe it until I see the nail holes in his hands. And I will not believe until I put my finger where the nails were and put my hand into his side'." (John 20:24-25 Easy-to-Read Version)

Thomas, when informed by the other disciples that they had seen the Lord, expressed disbelief: "I will not believe it until I see the nail holes in his hands." For him, a corpse cannot come back to life again! So he wanted proof to convince him of anything contrary to his belief---"I will not believe until I put my finger where the nails were and put my hand into his side," said Thomas.

When the Lord Jesus Christ appeared again to His disciples, Thomas was present:

"A week later the followers were in the house again. Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them. Jesus said, 'Peace be with you!' Then Jesus said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side. Stop doubting and start believing'.

"Thomas said to Jesus, 'My Lord and my God!'"

"Jesus said to Thomas, "You believe because you see me. Those people that believe without seeing me will be truly blessed'." (John 20:26-29, Ibid.)

Knowing that Thomas doubted His resurrection, Jesus told him, "Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand here in my side." Jesus wanted to convince the "Doubting Thomas" to believe that He was indeed resurrected. He told Thomas to stop doubting and believe.

When Thomas had seen the Lord, and when the very proof that would remove his doubt had been shown to him---that same body that had been crucified and had died now standing before him---all his stone-hard skepticism seemed childish. All of a sudden, his doubt vanished, and in great bewilderment, he exclaimed, "My Lord and my God!"

However, must we focus solely on what Thomas said and disregard what the rest of the passage is telling us? If we closely analyze what happened, when Christ showed the print of the nails in His hands and asked Thomas to put his finger into the place of the nails, Christ was not proving his alleged deity, but was proving to Thomas that He had indeed risen from the dead.

Thomas' exclamation, "My Lord and my God" must not be construed as an expression of his belief that Christ is God for such belief would certainly contradict the biblical truth that the Father alone is the true God (John 17:1,3), which the apostles already knew. Thus, Thomas' exclamation was erroneously interpreted as a confirmation of Christ's alleged deity.

reply to post by bijouramov
I think if that really happened as you suggest, the Bible would have said, "Then Thomas made a great exclamation of astonishment". I doubt that the Bible would waste time and space detailing some sort of blasphemous remark when the disciple lost all self control out of shock.
I think the general consensus on this verse by translators and commentators is that it was a statement of confession of belief, which is the only way it fits or makes any sense.
A suggestion would be that the word here translated as god in English has become defined by its use in the Bible and when it was written, would have been ambiguous to mean practically anything of a divine nature.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Oh my. Do you mean anyone given the title God/god or theos in the Bible should be considered God Almighty Himself? That just because the word Thomas used translates to theos in Greek, that it proves that Christ is God?

I think the general consensus on this verse by translators and commentators is that it was a statement of confession of belief, which is the only way it fits or makes any sense.

---belief in what? That Jesus Christ is God Himself or that Jesus was resurrected from the dead? You must understand the context; that Thomas doubted that Jesus was resurrected from the dead. That was what Christ meant when he responded to Thomas: "You believe because you see me. Those people that believe without seeing me will be truly blessed."

And with regards to Jesus not correcting Thomas, well, what about it? He appeared to them, particularly to Thomas, to prove that He indeed was raised from the dead and that is exactly what He did. If you're still adamant in your refusal to admit what John 20:26-29 is telling you, then how about asking yourself this question:

Why did Jesus not correct the apostles when they preached of him being a man?

Peter in Acts 2:28 preaches that Jesus is a man, same as Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5. Why then did Christ not correct them? Christ even appeared to Paul (whom at that time did not believe yet) in a vision and asked Paul why he was persecuting Him. So even if Christ was already in heaven at the time the apostles were preaching, He could have simply appeared to them in a vision correcting them, right? Can you read anywhere in the Bible where Christ corrected what they're preaching?

Why would you, despite the insurmountable amount of evidence in the Bible supporting the fact that Christ is a man, readily accept what Thomas said in that particular verse?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bijouramov

 

I think if that really happened as you suggest, the Bible would have said, "Then Thomas made a great exclamation of astonishment".

Even if the Bible said, "Then Thomas made a GREAT EXCLAMATION OF ASTONISHMENT!", you still won't accept what Thomas said for what it is---an exclamation of someone shocked into believing what he strongly doubted before. Which is...the resurrection of Jesus Christ!

And I am not suggesting it, my friend. None of the things I posted here came from my own personal interpretation of the things written in the Bible, but what the Bible is really telling its reader. You don't take one verse from the Bible and form your own interpretation from that one single verse without consulting the rest of the Bible. One verse must be supported by another and by the Bible as a whole, otherwise, it becomes incomprehensible. If the Bible declares that God is not man and man cannot be God, but you read a verse where it seems to suggest that a man is God then you must find an explanation for it from the rest of the Bible and not from yourself. Because if you accept the verse where it seems that it's saying that a man can be God or is God, then you ignore what the rest of the Bible states. That God is not man and man can never be God.

reply to post by bijouramov
Well, I don't know where you get all that from.
I think you are in a kind of catch 22.
You need supporting verses but you already have determined what the verses mean that would be useful.
So you are stuck in a circular argument.
What Jesus was saying is that a man does not somehow become a god.
For a man to be classified as god, he would have had to have heaven as his origin and not just that, but to come from God Himself, all things that Jesus attributed to himself.
God does not follow rules made up by people about what a god has to be.
Jesus being god knew how God operates and could explain it.

You need supporting verses but you already have determined what the verses mean that would be useful.

I determine what a particular verse mean by looking for other verses that would explain what I don't understand from the one I read. But to say that I explain a verse by means of my own interpretation then you are accusing me of something I am not guilty of.

So you are stuck in a circular argument.

How can you say such a thing, my friend? Am I the one claiming that Jesus is God?

What Jesus was saying is that a man does not somehow become a god. For a man to be classified as god, he would have had to have heaven as his origin and not just that, but to come from God Himself, all things that Jesus attributed to himself.

Jesus described himself as the Son of God, attributing all the attributes of the Son of God to himself. He came from God? Yes. His origin is in heaven? Yes. But where exactly in heaven? From the mind of God.

God does not follow rules made up by people about what a god has to be.

Precisely, my friend. And how does He describe Himself? "I am God, and not a human being," (Hosea 11:9)

Jesus being god knew how God operates and could explain it.

Jesus being god as the likes of Samson is described as a god. A human being who is given the authority to judge. Knowing how a person operates and knowing how to explain that person's actions does not make one the same in nature with that person. Bill knows how the mind of Steve works---why he does this and that---but that does not make Bill a Steve nor Steve a Bill. Bill is Bill and Steve is Steve.

reply to post by bijouramov

Am I the one claiming that Jesus is God?

That is an important point but the fact is 99% of Christians believe Jesus is god, so I think it would be incumbent upon you to make the point stick, in my opinion. What I was asking in a roundabout way was how you originally came up with the conclusion you are currently espousing. Did you just all of a sudden have this flash of insight while reading the Bible or were you taught this view, or are you just coming from an earlier agnostic background?

That is an important point but the fact is 99% of Christians believe Jesus is god, so I think it would be incumbent upon you to make the point stick, in my opinion.

And because 99% of "Christians" believe Jesus is God, then I should just simply accept their view?

If a person took an oath to become a policeman, a title which requires the implementation of the law without bias or prejudice, but does the exact opposite by breaking the very law he has sworn to uphold, is he still a policeman or is he a lawbreaker hiding behind his title?

What I was asking in a roundabout way was how you originally came up with the conclusion you are currently espousing.

If I say that I asked for understanding and By God's grace He gave it to me, I'm pretty sure that won't be enough for you. In fact, some people may even brand me as another delusional bible-thumping freak. But really, can anything that is good be acquired by any means other than because of God's mercy?

Did you just all of a sudden have this flash of insight while reading the Bible or were you taught this view, or are you just coming from an earlier agnostic background?

Why the interest in the specifics? Isn't what matters is if I speak the truth of what is written in the Bible? But if you oppose the things I say, then what is the point in telling you the details of how I came to the understanding of God's words? To see whether I have the credibility to speak of what is in the Bible? If you've already made up your mind about me, then there is nothing I can tell you that would change that.

What I meant was that the tradition in Christianity of Jesus being divine goes back so far back that no one can find a document proving that any early Christians ever thought otherwise. So, by definition, a Christian would be someone who thought of Jesus being divine in one way or another. I propose that someone who does not believe in this most basic premise is in fact not a Christian but some other type of believer who feels a spiritual connection with God, a god he has not idea of the nature of, seeing as he has already rejected Jesus as being our best example of god in a human form, sent to instruct us in the most authoritative manner possible.
The Hebrews who came out of Egypt, in the desert decided on their own to swear an oath, an oath they of course did not fulfil, to follow the god who spoke to them from the midst of fire and smoke. This oath does not apply to us today nor do we owe allegiance to that god and we now have a god who is truly God, the Father of Christ.

no one can find a document proving that any early Christians ever thought otherwise.

You want documents? The Bible is that compilation of documents you're looking for! You want to know what the early Christians---the real Christians---thought of Jesus? It is in the Bible, friend. It even warns us that some people will distort some of what is written in it to serve their own purposes. Those people think they have the ability to understand God's will but that is wrong. The ability to understand God's will is a gift from God Himself and is not something that is inherent in each and every human being. And if one asks of it and is given, it is given by His grace and not because a person is deserving of it but simply because God decided to give it to that person.

You must ask yourself: How can a drinking glass be poured with water if the glass is already full?

The Hebrews who came out of Egypt, in the desert decided on their own to swear an oath, an oath they of course did not fulfill, to follow the god who spoke to them from the midst of fire and smoke. This oath does not apply to us today nor do we owe allegiance to that god and we now have a god who is truly God, the Father of Christ.

But the father of Christ is the God who spoke to the Hebrews in the midst of fire and smoke! To say that we, who are living today, do not owe allegiance to the God of the Old Testament is the same as saying that there is no need to swear fealty to the one and only true God who is the Father of Jesus Christ. You are so close to the beginning of understanding of truth but at the last second you veer away from it.

The Bible teaches us that we must not conform to the principles of this world because if we do, then we already have our reward.