If Jesus was God, why did he pray to himself?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by jmdewey60
News to me, I've never heard that chapter as being about Jesus.

I’m not sure which other Christian denominations believe this verse refers to Jesus, but off top of my head, I think the Jehovah’s witnesses believe it. I personally believe it as well, although I am not a Jehovah’s Witness.

Proverbs 8
Proverbs 8:22-36

22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.
36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”

The first question you have to ask yourself, is who is speaking in the above verse?

For me, there are just too many uses of the words "me", "I" and "He’s", for it to be just describing wisdom per se.
It can’t be the Lord God speaking, because he is stating that the Lord God brought him forth and he is describing himself being there, when God was making things in the beginning.

Verse 35 “For whoever finds me finds life” sounds very similar to Jesus words in the verse below…

Matthew 10:39

Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Do some research on the oldest manuscripts of the New Testament where when reference was made to Jesus, they had used a code that stood for Jehovah and then later copiers did not understand what it meant and just filled in what seemed to fit, the name, Jesus. There are historians who believe that the earliest Christians equated Jesus to who was known by the Hebrews as, Jehovah.

Yes, I have no doubt that those old manuscripts referred to Jesus as Jehovah, but I believe they made the same mistake, that the Pharisees made at the temple, when speaking to Jesus. Jesus often says “these words you hear are not my own”, which to me, clearly shows that there are two persons words being presented in the four Gospels. One is Jesus own words, who is the “Son of God” and the other is that of he who sent him i.e. God/Father


One clear undeniable fact, is that there are two voices speaking through Jesus. When you think about it, it’s an easy mistake for people to make, to think that Jesus is God, unless they realize that God is speaking through Jesus as well. The problem is, if you just say Jesus is God/Father, then you can’t see Jesus for who he is. And you are still left with all the other contradictions in the Bible, where Jesus says for example.

“I and the Father are one”

“The Father is greater than I”

“I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

There are many others similar verses…


- JC

reply to post by bijouramov

But the father of Christ is the God who spoke to the Hebrews in the midst of fire and smoke! To say that we, who are living today, do not owe allegiance to the God of the Old Testament is the same as saying that there is no need to swear fealty to the one and only true God who is the Father of Jesus Christ. You are so close to the beginning of understanding of truth but at the last second you veer away from it.

There is none (need to swear fealty) and what on earth would make you think there is?
Remember circumcision? That was the big bugaboo in Paul's time and it had to do with this sort of idea you seem to be fascinated by. If circumcision was cast aside, what would be left? Answer, nothing. We are far removed from Sinai and the glow on the face of Moses has worn away, replaced by what? The glory of Christ. Did you just find a Bible laying around the house and one day decided to start reading it? Not that there is anything wrong with that but you might need some more time at it to be formulating your own system of theology.

There is none (need to swear fealty) and what on earth would make you think there is?

These are some of the reasons that prove why man must give his loyalty to God:

"Know that the LORD is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture." (Psalms 100:3)

"Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, 'I find no pleasure in them',” (Ecclesiastes 12:1)

"Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." (Deuteronomy 6:5)


And these are some of the ways to prove one's loyalty to Him:

"We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands." (1 John 2:3)

"In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome," (1 John 5:3)

God even tells us why there is a need to give and prove our loyalty to Him:

"Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of every human being." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

Remember circumcision? That was the big bugaboo in Paul's time and it had to do with this sort of idea you seem to be fascinated by.

And how do you understand the covenant of circumcision, my friend? That it is the actual removal of some/all of the foreskin which will be credited to you as righteousness by God?

"Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker." (Romans 2:25-27)

Still not clear? Let's proceed to verse 28-29:

"A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God."

Circumcision is not merely the outward and physical, it does not end there. Circumcision is also, and more importantly, circumcision of the heart and done by the Spirit.

One must obey the law. That is the essence of circumcision. And what is the greatest commandment in the Law?

Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment." (Matthew 22:37-38)

Which God was Jesus referring to? Himself?

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

"Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” (John 20:17)

You say you don't owe allegiance to God because you understand it as the physical ritual of circumcision and that because the time of Moses is long gone, and yet you claim allegiance to the Lord Jesus Christ but you don't understand that allegiance to Christ is the circumcision of the heart by the Spirit of God.

"We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Those who say, “I know him,” but do not do what he commands are liars, and the truth is not in them." (1 John 2:4)

Did you just find a Bible laying around the house and one day decided to start reading it? Not that there is anything wrong with that but you might need some more time at it to be formulating your own system of theology.

That is transgression, my friend. You accuse me of something I am not guilty of doing.

Again, I ask you: How can a drinking glass be poured with water if it is already full? Humility first, then understanding.

reply to post by bijouramov

And how do you understand the covenant of circumcision, my friend? That it is the actual removal of some/all of the foreskin which will be credited to you as righteousness by God?

Paul shattered that heresy by the Judaizers. Basically telling them they should be really really righteous and snip the entire thing off instead of the foreskin.

LOL!!!


"As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Galatians 5:12

reply to post by bijouramov

so you acknowledge a Spirit was infact what Paul heard, can you explain the earthy man aspect of that? and what is the Name of your "one" father/son/spirit or god? and yes I am aware of what the first part of that verse referencing a specific type of union but the last part and even the former is a princable or fact you can't seem to comprehend along with again the many other verses posted which is obviously more than you care to see, eat or just can't for some reason and judging by your last maddening mixed wine post about circumcision and "the law" things just keep getting clearer & clearer, hence your noticable gray area regarding blasphemy law and how that is directly related to the "Son"(Heb1) which is still currently in place and used to persecute/murder Christ-ians by certain people in certain places so I read, speaking of which what are your thoughts on mojammed and ordinary born "Abrahamic children"?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost-Matt28

I am come in my Father's name-John5

Father, glorify thy name.-John12

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.-2Cor5

Now the Lord is that Spirit-3

God is a Spirit-John4

The Lord is our King-Is33

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever.-1Tim1

For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand in the last day upon the earth-Job19

and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another King, one called Jesus.-Acts17

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever-Heb1

reply to post by bijouramov

That is transgression, my friend. You accuse me of something I am not guilty of doing.

Who's transgressing? Are you suggesting that I am? If your theology comes from a church you attend, I would call it the synagogue of Satan because you have a denial of Christ for the sake of a Being that Paul called an Angel who gave the Law to Moses.
If you go about discarding inconvenient sayings of Jesus and Paul, what you have left is a false religion invented by Jews to dupe the impressionable ignorant to support a so-called Jewish state in Palestine.
I think you need to fall on your knees at the foot of the cross and ask Jesus to forgive you your fornication with the harlot of the antichrist who stands in the temple claiming to be god.

Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. And this occurred because of false Christians secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage to Jewish regulations), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.-Gal2

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind-Col2

But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”-Acts15

reply to post by bijouramov

One must obey the law. That is the essence of circumcision. And what is the greatest commandment in the Law?

Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment." (Matthew 22:37-38)

Which God was Jesus referring to? Himself?

Love rejoices in the truth-1Corinthians

The Spirit of the Lord is on me-Luke4

I and the Father are one-John

He who unites himself with the Lord is one Spirit-Cor

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?-John14

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power -Heb1

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two Covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar...what does the scripture say? get rid of the slave woman and her son-Gal4

“‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?-Jer8

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.-Gal5

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.-3

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son-Heb1

“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.-John5

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven-6

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.-Heb7

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.-Romans

reply to post by Rustami
Pretty impressive set of verses, there, Russtami.
About my previous post, you need (you, in a general sense) to understand what communism is. What it does is replace the individual with a conglomerate entity called a State. In the case of one particular communist state, going by the name, Israel, that artificial individual going by a name, which happens to be a man's name, Israel, is the Messiah. That is the nature of Zionism. If anyone was to see it for what it really is, any person with any sort of Christian background would immediately reject it. To make it palatable to such people, as we would find quite numerous in the country of the USA, zionists will bribe certain "pastors" to lead the sheep in the wrong direction, away from Jesus and towards the false worship of this artificial entity having some sort of monopoly on the only true God.
Well, its all a fabric of lies and behind it all is Satan masquerading as an angel of light. There is a spirit loose in the world and it is the strong spirit of delusion. Those who turn from Jesus are susceptible to this delusion, loosing the spirit that comes from God, to accept a false messiah of a manifestation of god back in times so long past it is the subject of legend. The Angel of Sinai gave Moses a pattern to make a tabernacle after the true tabernacle that is in heaven. Jesus came from that true place and has returned there to be our intercessor to God. We do not worship at the temple made by human hand and the house has been laid desolate. What was the shadow, we now have the reality and we do not turn back to those shadowy things when the true God has been revealed to us in the flesh. A flesh made perfect through trials and death and resurrection to dwell in glory with the Father. If we neglect taking his hand then we are lost in this world that has not much longer to last. If you look to a place in the Middle East for your salvation, then it will never come.

Just watched this, felt it fit perfectly with the topic of this thread:

Watch the part specifically about the "Aleph and Tau".

How we got our NT (video 2)

reply to post by NOTurTypical

And how do you understand the covenant of circumcision, my friend? That it is the actual removal of some/all of the foreskin which will be credited to you as righteousness by God?

Paul shattered that heresy by the Judaizers. Basically telling them they should be really really righteous and snip the entire thing off instead of the foreskin.

LOL!!!

---which is more laughable, my friend? That you answered a question you did not understand and one that is not directed at you or the fact that you cannot give me answers to the questions I posed to you? In case you’ve forgotten already, here are my questions which you haven’t answered yet:

How about these verses friend? Can you explain these to me?

“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. (Mark 10:18)

"for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true." (John 5:31)

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." (John 5:30)

Why don’t you explain them to me in accordance with your belief so that I may be enlightened and turn my back from my false beliefs, if that is really the case? If Jesus is the Father who came down from heaven as a human being, then why do these verses seem to contradict that?

My questions are sincere and I am hoping for sincere answers.

reply to post by Rustami

so you acknowledge a Spirit was infact what Paul heard,

How did you ever come to the conclusion that I said Paul heard a spirit? Don’t put words into my mouth, friend for this is what I said:

“What about it? Christ spoke to Paul while the latter was on his way to Damascus.”

Are you trying to tell me that Christ after his resurrection or even after he ascended to heaven became a spirit? Because this is what the Bible has to say about that:

“Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself.” (Psalms 80:17)

When Jesus ascended to heaven, the apostles continued to uphold and teach the truth that He is man. Apostle Peter taught that Christ is a man attested by God through miracles, wonders, and signs:

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know.” (Acts 2:22)

Apostle Paul taught that Christ, who is man, is the Mediator between God and men:

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5)

and what is the Name of your "one" father/son/spirit or god?

These are three and not one in nature or rank, my friend. The Father is the only true God Almighty who is Spirit in nature. Christ is the Son of God, a man whom God has exalted to his right hand after Christ suffered through death to pay for the sins of his body which is his church (Colossians 1:18). The Holy Spirit is the power that comes from God (Luke 24:49) which He gave to Jesus Christ to serve as a witness to the whole world of Christ’s Sonship.

and judging by your last maddening mixed wine post about circumcision and "the law"

“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised.You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!” (Acts 7:51)

It seems to me here that Stephen, a martyr of the Lord, is speaking of what you call blasphemy (based on your limited understanding of what and what should not be considered blasphemy). Notice the underlined statement? Here is the explanation:

“The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker." (Romans 2:27)

For Gentiles, physical circumcision is not and should not be required of them because of the simple reason that they are not Jews! The real circumcision is not of the flesh but of the heart, made not by the knife (or whatever they used back then) but by the Spirit. If you’re a Jew, physical circumcision is useless if you don’t obey the law. And is the Law that was given to the Jews the same Law that Christ taught?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)

So what do you say Rustamis, my friend? Is circumcision of the heart and ears, by the Holy Spirit, a blasphemy as you claim? It is a commandment of the Law which Christ taught and which applies both to Jews and Gentiles according to the Bible. The physical circumcision, well, you can leave that to the Jews. The spiritual circumcision however is taught by Christ himself.

reply to post by jmdewey60

What I was asking in a roundabout way was how you originally came up with the conclusion you are currently espousing. Did you just all of a sudden have this flash of insight while reading the Bible or were you taught this view, or are you just coming from an earlier agnostic background?

Why are you looking for something else to mock, my friend? The doctrine I uphold is presented before you to rebut. I ask my questions and present my answers from the Bible. You, however, are content with what you think:

I think the general consensus on this verse by translators and commentators

A suggestion would be that the word here translated as god in English has become defined by its use in the Bible and when it was written, would have been ambiguous to mean practically anything of a divine nature.

99% of Christians believe Jesus is god, so I think it would be incumbent upon you to make the point stick…

I propose that someone who does not believe in this most basic premise is in fact not a Christian but some other type of believer who feels a spiritual connection with God, a god he has not idea of the nature of, seeing as he has already rejected Jesus as being our best example of god in a human form, sent to instruct us in the most authoritative manner possible.

You think, you suggest, you propose...why not use the Bible and explain it in an orderly way to reinforce what you believe, instead of commenting based on your own opinion or the opinion of others? Didn't the Bible itself said that to study spiritual realities we must compare and explain it with Spirit-taught words?

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words." (1 Corinthians 2:13)


And when I made a simple denial of your misguided suggestion that I, myself, formulated my own system of theology, you convinced yourself that it was the other way around, that I am the one accusing you , and then you proceeded by slandering the doctrine of my church (of which name you don’t even know). Something about my church being the synagogue of Satan and something about fornication with the harlot of the anti-Christ and whatnot. Here is the proof:

Who's transgressing? Are you suggesting that I am? If your theology comes from a church you attend, I would call it the synagogue of Satan…I think you need to fall on your knees at the foot of the cross and ask Jesus to forgive you your fornication with the harlot of the anti-Christ who stands in the temple claiming to be god.

I honestly expected some breeding from someone who claims to be sophisticated.

Originally posted by bijouramov
reply to post by NOTurTypical

---which is more laughable, my friend? That you answered a question you did not understand and one that is not directed at you or the fact that you cannot give me answers to the questions I posed to you? In case you’ve forgotten already, here are my questions which you haven’t answered yet:

Whoa, hold on, I was just bringing to the thread Paul's stance on the Judaizer's heresy about circumcision. Nothing more. Take it easy man. I apologize for the apparent snub, I have about 40 threads I'm actively involved with, if I missed a post here or there it wasn't because I disrespected you. I'll gladly address them..

“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. (Mark 10:18)

Anytime Jesus asks a question it is never because He doesn't understand something, or needs to learn. He always asks questions to get another person to think. Jesus was trying to get the person to realize his deity with the question. Just like God asks questions to Job, He isn't looking for an answer, but is trying to make the person think.

"for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

Jesus came to Earth "to serve, not to be served", He is merely acting in submission, and his mission was to completely fulfill the Father's will.

“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true." (John 5:31)

Perhaps that's why Jesus never wrote a gospel? "In the mouth of 2-3 witnesses all truth is declared.."

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." (John 5:30)

Same answer as before, He came to do the Father's will, not His own. Even though Jesus is divine, He is also 100% man. He speaks as god, but also speaks as a man. This is the duality of Christ.

Why don’t you explain them to me in accordance with your belief so that I may be enlightened and turn my back from my false beliefs, if that is really the case? If Jesus is the Father who came down from heaven as a human being, then why do these verses seem to contradict that?

I cannot make you believe anything. Secondly, Jesus isn't the 'Father who came down from heaven as a human being', Jesus is the Son who came down from heaven as a human being. Jesus will never be the Father, He is the Son, two entire different persons of the Godhead. God (the Father) sacrificed his only begotten Son, He didn't sacrifice Himself.

My questions are sincere and I am hoping for sincere answers.

I tried my best, I have another video for you to watch, it may or may not sway your beliefs, but it's still a testimony. One of my favorite theologians is Chuck Missler, his best attempt to explain the Trinity:

Missler - Trinity

Again I apologize for not addressing your earlier post, please forgive me.

reply to post by bijouramov

...why not use the Bible and explain it in an orderly way to reinforce what you believe, instead of commenting based on your own opinion or the opinion of others?

If you were to read a scholarly book on theology, you would find that what you are describing is the normal method for such discussions. I think it is a little late in the game to be "boldly going where no man has gone before". Everything in the Bible has been interpreted about every way possible and we can benefit by examining what other people have come up with and finding where some things hold up, and others do not.

I honestly expected some breeding from someone who claims to be sophisticated.

This is an example of you misunderstanding what I meant. What I was implying was that there are verses you just pass over because unsophisticated type people had misinterpreted it to the point that a more knowledgeable person would avoid it as a lost cause. I was not claiming to be sophisticated myself.

. . .you proceeded by slandering the doctrine of my church (of which name you don’t even know).

What is it? Christians for Israel? And what doctrine and how can you even call it a church? A religious institution, perhaps. Even the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus existed as a person before being born in Bethlehem. I can't think of any church that flatly denies any divinity to Christ.

reply to post by Rustami



I know you weren’t addressing me, but I couldn’t help myself.

Originally posted by Rustami
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?-John14

What Jesus means in that verse, is that those who know him (Jesus) have also heard Gods words through him and have therefore come to know God also. Jesus says those who have seen him have seen the Father because Jesus is in the likeness of God/Father.

As for physical circumcision, we are no longer under the old law because we have the new law written on our hearts, through the Holy Spirit. Jesus brings a new understanding to the commandments by his teachings and shows that the laws in essence have not changed, but it is the Holy Spirit that helps to guide us to keep the laws.

Originally posted by Joecroft
What Jesus means in that verse, is that those who know him (Jesus) have also heard Gods words through him and have therefore come to know God also. Jesus says those who have seen him have seen the Father because Jesus is in the likeness of God/Father.

whats the name of the Father?

I have come in My Father’s name-John5

all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.. made in the likeness of men and being found in fashion as a man-Phil2

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same-Heb2

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.-Eph1

He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.-2Sam7

As for physical circumcision, we are no longer under the old law because we have the new law written on our hearts, through the Holy Spirit.

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them-Heb10

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another-Rom2

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”-Gal5

without faith it is impossible to please God-Heb11

the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.-Gal3

be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith-Phil3

Jesus brings a new understanding to the commandments by his teachings and shows that the laws in essence have not changed, but it is the Holy Spirit that helps to guide us to keep the laws.

now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets-Rom3

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.-Heb7

ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were (aroused) by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.-Romans7

the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones-2Cor3

I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.-Rom7

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.-1Cor15

The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross; having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.-Col2

that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage(see Gal4).
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.-Heb2

whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.-Jas2

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.-Rom10

reply to post by jmdewey60


appreciate it, that entire post was directed to bijoumov I had just put those versus above reply mark but did think you would enjoy and yes no other Name! you know my testimony about what I have seen and heard for those that have'nt-
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by bijouramov
reply to post by Rustami

 

How did you ever come to the conclusion that I said Paul heard a spirit? Are you trying to tell me that Christ after his resurrection or even after he ascended to heaven became a spirit? Because this is what the Bible has to say about that

are men invisible? is Spirit? here's these again-

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.-2Cor5

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life giving Spirit

as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive

Now the Lord is that Spirit

It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing-John6

“Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself.” (Psalms 80:17)

And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.-Mk12

When Jesus ascended to heaven, the apostles continued to uphold and teach the truth that He is man. Apostle Peter taught that Christ is a man attested by God through miracles, wonders, and signs

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.-1Cor15

Apostle Paul taught that Christ, who is man, is the Mediator between God and men:
“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5)

For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.-Rom14

God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham.-Gal3

These are three and not one in nature or rank, my friend. The Father is the only true God Almighty who is Spirit in nature. Christ is the Son of God, a man whom God has exalted to his right hand after Christ suffered through death to pay for the sins of his body which is his church (Colossians 1:18). The Holy Spirit is the power that comes from God (Luke 24:49) which He gave to Jesus Christ to serve as a witness to the whole world of Christ’s Sonship.

And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed.-Mal2

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.-1John5

I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
I will be his father, and he shall be my son.-2Sam7

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God..Jesus lives forever-Heb7

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ-Titus2

“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised.You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!” (Acts 7:51)

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?-Gal3

And to whom a word of the Lord hath been, Rule on rule, precept on precept, do and do, line on line, A little here, a little there, So that they go and have stumbled backward, And been broken, and snared, and captured.-Is28

“The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker." (Romans 2:27)

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
-Heb7

For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed-4

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.-Gal3

For Gentiles, physical circumcision is not and should not be required of them because of the simple reason that they are not Jews! The real circumcision is not of the flesh but of the heart, made not by the knife (or whatever they used back then) but by the Spirit. If you’re a Jew, physical circumcision is useless if you don’t obey the law. And is the Law that was given to the Jews the same Law that Christ taught?

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.-Gal5

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law-John10

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.-John1

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

well then keep at it till you can fulfill them or the disappearance!

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.-Heb8

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man-Eph2

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.-Mark13

Is circumcision of the heart and ears, by the Holy Spirit, a blasphemy as you claim? It is a commandment of the Law which Christ taught and which applies both to Jews and Gentiles according to the Bible. The physical circumcision, well, you can leave that to the Jews. The spiritual circumcision however is taught by Christ himself.

what was that about putting words in mouth, is'nt this like the 9th or 11th time from you and "blasphemy" of the Spirit at that? have you heard His audible voice from invisibility?

Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.-John5.25

He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.-Matt12

Anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)

great

I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.-7

The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John.-Luke16

reply to post by Rustami

Originally posted by Rustami
whats the name of the Father?

Well, that’s been debated for a long time and is something I have researched; I personally believe Gods name to be Yahweh, although I could be wrong. I have looked at the grammatical considerations for Gods real name but it is extremely complicated.

Originally posted by Rustami
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.. made in the likeness of men and being found in fashion as a man-Phil2

I have no problem with the other verses you posted, except this one.

Firstly, I have no problem with the part, which suggests, Jesus being the “Son of God” is no ordinary man and was made in the likeness of men, as the verse states.

Secondly, the verse states in a round about way, that Jesus is equal to God. But Jesus says the exact opposite to that, when he say’s in John 14:28 that “the Father is greater than I”

In your opinion, how and in what way, is Jesus equal to God?


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Well, that’s been debated for a long time and is something I have researched; I personally believe Gods name to be Yahweh, although I could be wrong. I have looked at the grammatical considerations for Gods real name but it is extremely complicated.

I come at you differently from the others. To me and many others God has no name and can not have children. God does create life though. since I don't believe in Jesus and accept Jesus in anyway of form I will never accept a view of Jesus from the Old testament.

One of the primary expressions of Jewish faith, recited twice daily in prayer, is the Shema, which begins "Hear, Israel: The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd is one." This simple statement encompasses several different ideas: 1. There is only one G-d. No other being participated in the work of creation. 2. G-d is a unity. He is a single, whole, complete indivisible entity. He cannot be divided into parts or described by attributes. Any attempt to ascribe attributes to G-d is merely man's imperfect attempt to understand the infinite. 3. G-d is the only being to whom we should offer praise. The Shema can also be translated as "The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd alone," meaning that no other is our G-d, and we should not pray to any other.

The Nature of God

Although many places in scripture and Talmud speak of various parts of G-d's body (the Hand of G-d, G-d's wings, etc.) or speak of G-d in anthropomorphic terms (G-d walking in the garden of Eden, G-d laying tefillin, etc.), Judaism firmly maintains that G-d has no body. Any reference to G-d's body is simply a figure of speech, a means of making G-d's actions more comprehensible to beings living in a material world. Much of Rambam's Guide for the Perplexed is devoted to explaining each of these anthropomorphic references and proving that they should be understood figuratively. We are forbidden to represent G-d in a physical form. That is considered idolatry. The sin of the Golden Calf incident was not that the people chose another deity, but that they tried to represent G-d in a physical form.

This followed directly from the fact that G-d has no physical form. As one rabbi explained it to me, G-d has no body, no genitalia, therefore the very idea that G-d is male or female is patently absurd. We refer to G-d using masculine terms simply for convenience's sake, because Hebrew has no neutral gender; G-d is no more male than a table is. Although we usually speak of G-d in masculine terms, there are times when we refer to G-d using feminine terms. The Shechinah, the manifestation of G-d's presence that fills the universe, is conceived of in feminine terms, and the word Shechinah is a feminine word.

G-d transcends time. He has no beginning and no end. He will always be there to fulfill his promises. When Moses asked for G-d's name, He replied, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh." That phrase is generally translated as, "I am that I am," but the word "ehyeh" can be present or future tense, meaning "I am what I will be" or "I will be what I will be." The ambiguity of the phrase is often interpreted as a reference to G-d's eternal nature.

Image of God

The Bible states that humanity was created in the image of G-d, but what does it mean to be created in the image of G-d? Clearly, we are not created in the physical image of G-d, because Judaism steadfastly maintains that G-d is incorporeal and has no physical appearance. Rambam points out that the Hebrew words translated as "image" and "likeness" in Gen. 1:27 do not refer to the physical form of a thing. The word for "image" in Gen. 1:27 is "tzelem," which refers to the nature or essence of a thing, as in Psalm 73:20, "you will despise their image (tzel'mam)." You despise a person's nature and not a person's physical appearance. The word for physical form, Rambam explains, is "to'ar," as in Gen. 39:6, "and Joseph was beautiful of form (to'ar) and fair to look upon." Similarly, the word used for "likeness" is "damut," which is used to indicate a simile, not identity of form. For example, "He is like (damuno) a lion" in Ps. 17:12 refers not to similar appearance, but to similar nature.

What is it in our nature that is G-d-like? Rashi explains that we are like G-d in that we have the ability to understand and discern. Rambam elaborates that by using our intellect, we are able to perceive things without the use of our physical senses, an ability that makes us like G-d, who perceives without having physical senses.

As you can see I state my sources and agree with them fully!
God is great!