If Jesus was God, why did he pray to himself?

reply to post by bijouramov


*yawn*


Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

(Immanuel literally means: God with us)

Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a Son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

(Wouldn't you agree that's a pretty blasphemous prophecy coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet of God??)

John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”

(Jesus states He pre-existed His incarnation in human form, and He also uses a title for Himself God Almighty told Moses He was in Exodus 3:14.)

John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"

Matthew 28:16-17: “Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.”

(Jesus allowed worship at His birth, throughout His ministry, and here before His ascension without rebuking anyone for doing so, yet when tempted by Satan He told him "thou shalt worship the Lord thy God only".)

Colossians 1:15-16; 2:9: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. . . . For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. . .”

Paul identifies Jesus Christ as the Creator of heaven and Earth.

Revelation 5:13-14: “Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: ‘To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!’ The four living creatures said, ‘Amen,’ and the elders fell down and worshiped.”

(In John's vision during the Great tribulation week, every creature in heaven falls to worship Jesus Christ in the throne room of heaven.)




The Lord speaking in the OT:

Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another..."

Isaiah 48:11c "I will not yield my glory to another."

(Now Jesus's prayer in the Garden

John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."





Revelation 22:12-13, 16 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End....“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."


If you deny Jesus is who He claimed to be you will perish in your sins.

reply to post by bijouramov

The only true God whom all men should know to attain eternal life said that there is no God besides Him (Deuteronomy 32:39)

Here's another verse from the same book you are quoting:
"For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, mighty, and awesome God who is unbiased and takes no bribe." Deuteronomy 10:17
Why would God say he was the God of gods if there were no other gods?
A literal translation of your verse would be something like this:
"Therefor observe that I, the very I, myself, not any other divine entity with me, I myself, death, life, smite, myself, heal, without the ability to take away, such power."
To me, a version that fits our language would be something like:
"I have a power over life and death, to destroy or to heal, that none can take away from me, even a god."

You seem to be getting a lot of mileage from a single verse that you do not even understand.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Why would God say he was the God of gods if there were no other gods?

Because He was speaking to people who thought there were multiple gods????

Just a thought.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I think the problem is that people get hung up on the terminology.
The Old Testament is very loose with its terminology concerning divine beings, as if it uses whatever term was available and if it wanted to be more specific about what it meant, they would spell it all out, to develop the theme.
For example, the verse I was analyzing. It was not developing a theme about there not being other gods but was talking about the attributes of God and one being that no one can override His judgments, as if there was an accountability to another individual. He is accountable to justice, which He Himself defined.
Like I have said before on a couple threads, the word monotheism is relatively recent in its coming into usage, back in the 1600's and encompasses a concept that was not so well defined previously, and it taints our ability to come into some sort of agreement, as demonstrated on this forum. There is a long running battle about the "god" question and my opinion is it is caused by people believing they can define god. The very use of a word like god is evidence enough that it is something beyond ordinary defining and categorizing and labeling.
I just don't think that was ever the intent of the writers of the Bible, otherwise it would be about twice the size. If God was definable, then God would not be god, He would be a man or something we can touch and look at and examine.
I think Christians should agree that Jesus is the Revelation of God and in being the representation of God qualifies him to be given the same level of respect as if he was God himself. That is a very old concept that predates the Old Testament and the Bible has no problem with it and we should not either.

I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
I will be his Father, and he shall be my Son.-2Samuel7

Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?-Matthew22

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?-John10

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.-Galatians3

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.-John14

reply to post by jmdewey60


I believe Jesus is part of the Godhead.

It amazes me that people who believe their soul and spirit move along into eternity when they die have an impossible time believing that God could exist in 3 separate yet one persons. But they have no issues believing they themselves exist this way. God declared He would make man "in our image" in Genesis.

I believe He did just that. People who believe their soul and spirit move along when their body turns to dust do not believe they are 3 different persons, they all believe they are one person. (myself included) But they refuse to allow God to exist in the same manner they do.

Just weird to me, that's all.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Will you explain to me where you're coming from? Is it your belief that there is a god that is almighty but that there are also other gods who might not be as powerful but are gods just the same? And in which category does Jesus fall?

Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a Son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

(Wouldn't you agree that's a pretty blasphemous prophecy coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet of God??)

This is what you hold as proof that Jesus Christ is God? At first glance it may seem to agree to your claim but notice the last title in the verse? Prince of Peace. Mighty God...Everlasting Father...then Christ falls to being just a prince of peace. Shouldn't it be God of peace? Or at least King of peace instead of a lower title like prince?

Furthermore, Isaiah prophecies that Christ will be called god but is he the only man in the Bible given this title? How about Samson? Mighty God is El Gibbor which is also the meaning of Gabriel, an angel of God. But is Gabriel an angel or God Himself?

And what about the title father? Did Apostle Paul not refer to himself as father of Christ's followers? How about Ezra and King Hezekiah who were also called Everlasting Father?

Immanuel is a name which means "God with us" not "the bearer of this name is God and he is with us".

Have some patience and really try to discern the things written in the Bible instead of grabbing the first verse that seems to correspond to what you want to believe.

I'll throw this right back at you friend:

If you deny Jesus is who He claimed to be you will perish in your sins.

NoturTypical,

How about these verses friend? Can you explain these to me?

“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. (Mark 10:18)

"for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true." (John 5:31)

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please
myself but him who sent me." (John 5:30)

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36)----based on what you want to believe, Jesus Christ, a person of the Trinity does not even know when the end will come. Mighty God, indeed.

God exalted Jesus Christ above all men, to be worshiped because it pleases the Father, but you want to place him even higher than where God Almighty placed him. And that is where you cross the line from obedience to transgression.

Again friend, these words belong to you:

If you deny Jesus is who He claimed to be you will perish in your sins.

reply to post by bijouramov

There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.-John5

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.-Acts5

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever.-1Tim17

and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.-Eze37

first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
.. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec..But this man, because Jesus continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.-Hebrews7

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands-2

he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.Acts17

They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.-Luke19

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.-John5

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?-14

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.-Phil2

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.Acts2

reply to post by Rustami


What am I suppose to understand from your post? Did you even try to understand the verses you posted? If so, then surely you can see that not all the verses you posted refer to Jesus Christ, right?

Originally posted by bijouramov
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Will you explain to me where you're coming from? Is it your belief that there is a god that is almighty but that there are also other gods who might not be as powerful but are gods just the same? And in which category does Jesus fall?

Is this multiple choice? What is it, two categories, a) Almighty, b) Less powerful god ?
Jesus is all powerful, meaning he has infinite power at his disposal, by authority from the Father God.
Only someone who is a god himself could directly put that power to use.
There are angels who are given authority to do tremendous things but on a limited bases, and specific to the task at hand.
Jesus would be autonomous in so far as deciding how far to exercise his power in a discretionary manner. This is possible because of his unique relationship with the Father, being of like mind from being in kinship as His only begotten son.
The Book of Hebrews compares Jesus to Melchizedek. The man had been around for so long that no one alive knew of a time when he was not there. Jesus would be like that in the angelic realm. There would be no angel who ever knew of a time when the Son of God did not exist, when some of the angels would be able to remember from before anything of the material universe existed. As a group these angels would have been sons of God and the Assembly of the Holy Ones.
I believe that if you could get past the imagery of Jesus in the manger, you might be able to sea him as the Ancient of Days in the council of God. He would be the ultimate appeal to any question and could speak with authority on any matter.
Let's say you were one who predated the universe and you remembered a time when the others did not exist yet and there was a time when it was you, and the Ancient One. "Are you God" you asked so long ago. "I am the Son of God" comes the reply. "Am I a son of God too?" "Yes, you are the first of your kind, the sons of God." "Can I meet the Father of you and I?" "No because my Father is all powerful." "Have you met Him?" "Yes, but I am His Son" "But you just said I was His son, too" "Let's not worry about that right now. We have the others that I need to help you be the leader of, and we have a universe to create"
After a while it starts to eat away at you and you begin to question the Son and you start to discuss your misgivings with the others. After a while things come to a head, and then a rebellion and then these gods are exiled onto an unsuspecting world. The inhabitants of which now have the rather difficult task of differentiating between the good gods and the bad gods.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Okay...I think I'm beginning to understand your belief in this matter. Thank you for explaining it to me.

My belief regarding Jesus Christ is not really that much different from yours. The only difference is that (correct me if I'm wrong please) you believe that because God gave Christ the highest authority and power over all creation, then he cannot be just a man but a god as well because no human being can wield such authority and power. I, on the other hand, believe that God can exalt a man (Christ) to exercise authority and power on His behalf without having to make him a god. And God's command is for all to worship Christ but not as the Almighty Creator because that title is for God the Father only. Yes, Christ is Lord and Savior but those traits, those honors are given to him by God. Christ himself stated that on his own he can do nothing, and that in itself is a declaration that he is not God or even a god.

Finally, the Almighty God is immortal and since He declared that He does not change, it is impossible to accept that He can die or that He will even contemplate to experience death for awhile, for whatever reason. In Christ's case, well, he died.

reply to post by bijouramov


NOTurTypical was commenting on how it's hard for people to understand their own spirit.
Understanding spirit beings would be even more difficult to understand, and progressively more difficult the higher you go up in the spiritual levels of existence.

That, my friend, is one of the many contradictions that negates Jesus being 'God' or the creator of the universe.

As a Jewish reformer, he prayed like any other Jew would, to their god. Judaism teaches that there is only one god that is sexless and does not take physical form. Ancient Israelite religion taught there were many gods and that Yahweh/El was the primary god of the Hebrews, and why would Jesus, who prayed to that god allegedly, try to usurp his prayers by claiming to be him?

There are many possibilities regarding just who Jesus may or may not have been...whether he was a master teacher who tried to show the Divine Light within all of us or a special prophet of a monotheistic god, we may not know. But its clear he never claimed to be the sole god of this world. One read only the New Testament. : )

reply to post by bijouramov


what those say? so what do you think about the voice Paul heard when he first believed? how about his and so many others persecutions/murders throughout history starting with you know who? as in the "Son"(=) being literally raised. I read they still do these things over there for the same reason- like "yes he was a great prophet, teacher, man, etc. but not "the son", again-

I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.- 2Samuel7.14

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.-John5.18

Originally posted by Rustami



Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.-John5.18

The verse is telling you that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because they thought he was making himself equal with God by claiming that he is the Son of God. But did he really claim that he was equal or even God Himself when he said I am the Son of God? Why don't we consult what Jesus himself said?

"for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." (John 5:30)

Do you disagree with Jesus when he said that the Father is greater than him? That alone he can do nothing? Are the verses above something that a person claiming to be equal or even God himself would say?

The verse you quoted was not telling you that Jesus is equal with God, rather it is telling you, if only you would exercise some patience and really try to understand it, that the Jews were accusing him of something that he never claimed which is equality with God.

Originally posted by bijouramov

The verse is telling you that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because they thought he was making himself equal with God by claiming that he is the Son of God. But did he really claim that he was equal or even God Himself when he said I am the Son of God? Why don't we consult what Jesus himself said?
~as if the previous posts were??
~The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him-John5

"for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
~He saved others; Himself He cannot save.-Matt27
~Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?-John14
~I and my Father are one (ego kai ho pater hen esmen).-John10
~In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God..He was in the world, and the world was made by him..And the Word was made flesh-John1
~And God said, Let us make man in our image-Gen1

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." (John 5:30)
~Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be grasped (see marriage, bride, bridegoom)-Phil2
~who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power-Heb1
~And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.-John17

The verse you quoted was not telling you that Jesus is equal with God, rather it is telling you, if only you would exercise some patience and really try to understand it, that the Jews were accusing him of something that he never claimed which is equality with God.
~ that verse in John uses the same word that Paul used in Philippians to denote Jesus’ equality with God, namely the Greek adjective isos
~For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing.. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life -John 5
~“Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”-Mk2
~But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins-Matt9
~"I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." Matt12
~He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.-Col1

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1Tim3

Originally posted by Rustami
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1Tim3

How about this version?

Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

Or this if you're still confused regarding my point:

Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith:

Christ was revealed in a human body
and vindicated by the Spirit.
He was seen by angels
and announced to the nations.
He was believed in throughout the world
and taken to heaven in glory.

The Greek word theos was not in the earliest manuscripts, but hos. The word theos did not appear before the 5th century which means the "Jesus is God doctrine" has already been established by the Catholic Church.

You're trying to support your claim with a passage that contains a scribal error, my friend.

reply to post by bijouramov

again I ask what stands out or why were He and his followers(are) persecuted/murdered and what about the invisible voice Paul heard when he first believed? notice their murderers also claim/ed to know and worship one "god/father"? if you think the Jew scenario scripturally inaccurate(wrong) about the Son/blasphemy thing, then ask yourself why muslims also for example deny his sonmanship to this day

The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.-John19

And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard-Is30.30

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me-John10.27

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.-Matt27

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.-John8.58

But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.-Luke11

and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.-Rev12.5

suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus-Acts9.3