U.K. cleric: Rape is impossible within marriage

reply to post by getreadyalready


Hello mate,

I'm not shocked that people cheat on each other, I ment that I was shocked that some people in this thread find it acceptable to have sex with someone other than their married partner simply because she wasn't in the mood for sex.

I understand what your saying about people keeping secrets believe me I really do, but maybe your down playing the amount of trust and openness that I share with my partner. Every single human being on the planet has their own secrets, I'm not denying that...

But I know everything that I need to know about my girlfriend (or so I think ) and I'm happy with that.

I don't tell her that when we are doing the washing up together (see how a relationship works?) that sometimes when drying a large kitchen knife I get a fleeting thought of plunging it into her back, just like I don't tell her sometimes I have the urge to throw myself out of the window just to see what the impact feels like.

My point being is that everyone on the planet has strange thoughts of this nature to some degree, I'd say I was particulary in tune with my subconcious and very aware of my own thoughts, back to the topic I don't tell my partner these things because I don't need to.

Now, I'll wait for the ATS van with the square wheels to come and pick me up...

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Kailassa

 

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On another note, I don't know how I elected myself the voice of reason in this thread, but I need to clarify that I a very normal, very married husband and father. I work a normal job, I play softball, I go to the school events. The only difference between me and 75% of people on this thread is that I am willing to be honest about my experiences, desires, and even character flaws.

You don't sound normal, no offence...

reply to post by getreadyalready


The only thing I can think when I read your posts, and there is nothing wrong with honesty, and the teenager working for you as well: balance is a good thing. And teenagers need to be taught this, along with a little self control. Its hormonal surges, and mood changes, that unlike the latest studies findings about teens as if its new, is natural and as old as time itself. But teenagers do things rashly, putting their all into fleeting moments, willing to die for them even, without a mature sense of consequences yet.

Balance is a good thing. Self control, not the right winged religious idea of massive self control and abstenance, but balance, meditation, physical activity like dance, yoga, sports, martial arts, others.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Lol, man. I can honestly understand why your ex became your ex.

Lol, not sure this was mentioned as I kind of zoned out after four pages of discussion on a fellow member's sex life, but has anyone who considers themselves in sympathy with the cleric's pronouncement stopped to consider the wretched physical i.e gynecological condition many, if not most of the women who must live under such pronouncements are in?

Even among the Muslim women who had the good fortune to come to the west you may find severe examples of genital mutilation. At best, many who escaped that fate still have painful unresolved physical issues as a result of following cultural taboos that limited their access to proper and necessary gynecological care. That can even be true of Muslim women born in the western countries. I know of many of these things following the local human interest news about Muslim immigrants in my area and from actually talking to immigrant coworkers in the past. They do not talk of such things readily mind you. It sometimes comes out as a result of them getting terribly incapacited and not being able to even walk without excruciating pain. It's painful just for ME to recall this and talk about it on their behalf.

So please keep in mind we are not really talking about healthy women who were raised as equals to men and who decline sex just because they are not "in the mood". For a woman who is in subpar physical health even consensual sex can be extremely painful. Even some of us western women can attest to this. So show your compassion and respect for these unfortunate women before halfassedly deciding you are even remotely in sympathy with the cleric. Thanks.

reply to post by Americanist


A dispicable view, certainly. But let us not forget that there are also sects of Christianity that believe this exact same nonsense. As a matter of fact that phrase it even more crudely stating that the wife is the husband's property.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


Is this true? I had never thought of gynecological care and issues with Muslim women. I suppose if they cannot show their faces, necks, and ankles in public, then they surely cannot show their hoohas to a doctor? Although, I think someone has to certify them as a virgin.

Is it against their tradition to get regular medical care and/or gynecological care?

reply to post by getreadyalready


Wow!
You have always had my respect, more so now than ever before, my kind friend

I respect your honesty and that you have no need to apologize for being you.
I wish more men were that way. What I mean is, I wish they were comfortable enough with themselves to have the "take me as I am", "this is who I am" "love me or leave me" attitude.... and "don't try to change me" philosophy... (the one's in control of themselves aren't rude to others, they simply value their time and don't care to waste it with someone who doesn't accept the line that is clearly drawn).

Imo, for as long as dominant men and women are in control of their ego and it's not the other way around, they will always have respect from friends and foes alike.

I certainly can't judge you on the "cheating" part of your posts (if I read them right)... IF you made your views and expectations clear to your partner, as it sounded like you did, while in the dating stages. It's up to the partner to accept those views and expectations or not. No one is being forced to "like it". If they don't like it, they should be just as open and honest.
It's a two-way street.

You are also correct that women have their secrets, their fantasies. If the guy wants to know more about their partner and trust and respect are a large part of the relationship, the woman will feel safe enough to share with him.
When the trust and respect for each other is cherished, the relationship has no limits, the magic and the love, the good and not so good times in life are much easier to deal with together.
It all starts with a "matter of fact" honesty, an ear to listen and someone who is also willing to listen to you.

The U.K. cleric is a dirt bag and he and others who think like him will never have a rich and adventurous, loving life if they force anything upon anyone. (Perfect example of "ego/entitlement" controlling the man instead of the man controlling his ego!)

sl

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


In that consideration I'll have to submit to what you've stated.

Personally I've focused on social indoctrination and standards, and the different perspectives, but not quite the variables of sexual abuse and genital manipulation.

You have strung a chord.

reply to post by getreadyalready

Most hospitals in major western cities are now developing special protocols to deal with Muslim women, because the women can't let a man, even a doctor, see their bodies. Even the ones who want to do everything the western way can find themselves unable to have a male doctor see them even in childbirth, as the conditioning they get from childhood is so intense.

This means Muslim women are unlikely to report rape, and less likely than non-Muslim women to get medical help for gynacological conditions.

When they do get help, it's often from a Muslim doctor who keeps them completely covered, and thus is unlikely to diagnose their conditions adequately.

When you combine this with the fact that many of these women have had their private parts butchered by FGM as children, so they lack the elasticity needed to have sex without tearing, you can see marital rape in Muslim cultures is likely to cause more damage and have less chance of getting treated than marital rape would for non-Muslim westerners.

Originally posted by SeenMyShare
reply to post by Americanist

 

I'd like to ask the ladies that have been subjected to this despicable behavior what their opinion is. No, means NO!
I don't care who the man is, when the woman says no - taking what he wants by force is rape in my book.

Very true, no means no. This Muslims clerics ideas are disgusting. However interesting side note, if a woman says no a man is supposed to stop, if a man says no the woman thinks he must be cheating on her, gay or is playing a game and wants her to try harder.

Oh the double standard.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Got to agree old friend.

2nd

reply to post by getreadyalready


Yes unfortunately it is true, my friend. And by the way I have always enjoyed your posts and do not judge you for the agreement you have made with your wife. What two equally liberated consenting adults decide to agree to within their relationship is none of my business to judge. I would only say or do something if I saw one party to the relationship clearly put in a position of abuse in which they had no safe and clear way out.

I urge you to do a web search on the topic of "obstacles To gynecological care for Muslim women" or similar wording to verify what I have posted. Even some of the articles I skimmed so I could provide you with a reference did not go into nearly enough ugly detail such as I uncovered personally as a caring coworker. I am going to have to go read my usual oddball articles on Chupacabras as mind bleach to forget what I know that this topic resurrects for me.

Please suffice it to say you would find your heart so changed and your mind so opened if you could see as I did a usually happy cheerful sunshine lovely dispositioned African woman burst into tears when the rest of the ladies got into a break room discussion about ob gyn stuff that women who have known each other for years will often start talking about without a second thought. And then you find out there is a hell, and it's on this earth and it's evils are unleashed all too often on helpless women and girls and even infants. I'm not sure how the atrocities break down according to the various races and ethnicities across the Muslim population as a whole, but I do know quite a few African Muslim women have emerged from unspeakable hell yet carry on with amazing positive demeanors. Their personal strength and dignity is almost as unimaginable as the atrocities they have struggled to overcome.

Rape is Rape whether you are married or not!

reply to post by MagnitarGods


Ok, define it for us then.

What if she passes out during the act and you don't realize it? What if she is more than willing, but you don't have a method for determining her BAC, and she regrets the act the following day, week, or month? What if you are 18 and she is 17? What if she asks to be raped (in the literal sense, some women request hits or chokes or cuffs or tie-ups)?

Tell us, what exactly is rape, because the courts and lawyers are having a very hard time defining it, so maybe you can shed some light on it for us.

reply to post by getreadyalready


This isn't directly to getreadyalready alone, but a general follow up on my take in the point you brought up.

Well I have to say that the rape is a concept created by modern man. For the majority of creatures on earth, rape is the primary means of fornication. The victimized animals are rarely if ever left traumatized, and go about their way of life afterwards.

Of course I would never advocate unconsentual rape, but the coming back to reality, one has to realize that the majority of the trauma is due to social conditioning and social ethics, which one sets expectations on, and once those expectations are broke, your traumatized for life. The primary of our populations children are shielded from sex, and never are learned a proper understanding of what sex and fornication means. This leads to many taking it too far for granted, for others, they become conditioned to be overly prude out of fear or shame or religious submission.

So again, unconsentual rape is a serious issue, but it's still blown out of proportion by a mentally unstable society.

reply to post by Unity_99


You do understand that in many countries Sharia Law is the government...

reply to post by Scarcer


You are forgetting that usually it is extremely physically painful and sometimes results in actual physical damage at least to human females. Please look up the info. It's out there. Even consensual sex is painful to many females for a variety of health reasons. Which is why some wives and girlfriends sometimes have to say no even when the spirit is willing. The flesh isn't always cooperative.

as a result of reading on a different forum how hurtful it is to men when partners throw them aside due to loss of function as a result of prostate cancer treatment I think the world needs more compassion and mutual respect between genders. Even though we each may not fully understand what the other goes through physically as well as psychologically in times of crisis.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


Fair enough, and your quite right. We, or I, need be of reminding of the physical aspects as well in the equation.

So far the discussion has been revolving around emotions and reactions primarily. But you have strung a good point.

And I agree that we need more compassion.

Which compassion isn't about ridicule and jumping to emotional conclusions and hated for 'the foes' in our ideals.

An issue is an issue, which people should seek intellectually mutual understandings on the topic, and progress on level ground rather than emotional driven assaults.

And rape is impossible inside his church. Hear from where the words have falsely guilded the wicked. Remove yourselves from the churches. They are bastions of evil. Steady your course by the shining star discerned true by thy own holy discernment.reply to post by Americanist