U.K. cleric: Rape is impossible within marriage

Originally posted by Aeons

Gosh, you know in the UK and North America, your husband can treat you like rat crap and call you horrible names and if you kick him in the nads for it (an obvious consequence of that behaviour) you can be charge and put in jail!

Who knew.

So you condone domestic violence then ?? So in your "worldview" is it okay for a man to slap his wife if say, his supper is late one evening ? ( Not that most women can cook to save their lives these days but any example would do! )

Neglect, verbal abuse, infidelity etc are no excuse to resort to physical violence, ever! That's why they have divorce lawyers and marriage is a "legal contract" and you can get out no questions asked ! Besides, why would a women want to turn a marriage "violent", considering that most of the victims of DV are women themselves ??

If you kick a man in his privates without immediate danger to your person, you deserve to go to jail, just as a man deserves to go to jail for assaulting his wife ! This is a very clear cut unambiguous law; you do not hurt the people you profess to love.
However, women get away with more cases of violence usually because, men aren't going to be ones pressing charges for physical violence at home and society looks disparagingly at a man who is a victim of DV.

This is more why I do not see Islam as a legitimate religion. It's an imposition of totalitarian control of an extreme nature wrapped in a religious guise. A real religion, is a personal faith. People need the freedom to believe what they want, but when the goal means to force it on others, and make a psuedo-political system based on sharia, which allows things like jihad, honor killing, and rape, then to me, it is not a religion.

reply to post by IAF101


I agree with you, "hurting the people you love" is never acceptable, but I do want to clarify one point.....

Neglect, verbal abuse, infidelity etc are no excuse to resort to physical violence, ever! That's why they have divorce lawyers and marriage is a "legal contract" and you can get out no questions asked ! ??

That is a correct legal version of marriage, but for a very large number of people, "marriage" is a religious concept, not a legal one. For many people divorce is not an option. For many people getting out of a marriage means a lifetime of accumulated sins that you carry with you. This concept goes for Christians and Muslims alike. I had a huge issue with my first wife deciding to divorce me, because my vow was "til death do us part." I like to be a man of my word, and for many people that means one of you has to die before the marriage ends, and all too often divorce attempts end in murder or murder/suicide. Obviously I didn't kill my ex-wife, but some people do.

Just saying, divorce is not so simple as you stated it to be. And in many cases there are major economic implications and kids to care for. I'm not advocating violence by any means, but I am advocating each spouse making a lot more concessions and compromises to avoid a divorce if possible. It should not be so simple.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Why should any man or woman ''use'' their unwilling partner as little more than a sex toy ?


Aside from the ethical problems of your stance, why would anyone even be in a relationship with somebody who they clearly don't respect ?

How is desiring one's mate even when they aren't particularly in the mood disrespectful ? How is helping your spouse fulfill and satisfy their urges being a sex toy ?

That's like saying you would only do the dishes/walk the dog/cook/do the laundry/pick up the dry-cleaning etc for your spouse only when you feel like it and not when you aren't in the mood! That's not a marriage, that would be a room-mate arrangement (not even room-mates would stand for that these days! ) .

Sure, violently forcing your partner into sex when they don't want to, is absolutely condemnable and tantamount to rape but having sex with a disinterested/tired/unwilling partner is certainly not rape~!

reply to post by Americanist


Absolutely ridiculous.

I try my best to advocate understanding of other faiths/religions/culture as much as I can... But there are some times when you have to ask yourself \\\"Just what is going on here???\\\"

reply to post by IAF101


I'm glad for the both of us you haven't been incarcerated for any serious length of time.

reply to post by Americanist


How would you know one way or the other ??

Just like everything else, I guess the best you can come up with is ignorant speculation.

Originally posted by Korg Trinity
There are many reasons why a female can have reduced desire to engage in sexual activity. I myself have had to endure periods of time when my partner has had reduced libido.

Haha, tell me about it! Having babies is one sure fire to cut your sex life down by 90%....

Originally posted by Korg Trinity
A women’s sexual desire is not like a tap that you can turn on or off whenever you feel like it.

I beg to differ. If you love and understand your partner, there are "buttons" one can push to get the juices flowing, as it were. That said, not having a randy missus has it benefits. More man time to play!

As for this "cleric" and his opinions, I think Mrs Garrison sums it up quite nicely.

Let's all look at why Muslims are upset:

[turns and picks up a stick of chalk]

First of all, in the Muslim religion, you're not allowed to have what?

[no response]

Sex.

Good.

[writes "NO SEX" on the board]

There's no sex until marriage in the Muslim world.

[faces the class]

Now, this would be fine except that in the Muslim religion you also can't... Anybody?

[no response]

Jack off.

[writes "NO JACKING OFF" on the board]

Okay, jacking it is strictly forbidden in the Muslim religion.

[faces the class]

And what do we know about the places Muslims live? They live in?

[no response]

Good, sand.

[writes "SAND" on the board]

Now put yourself in the shoes of a Muslim. It's Friday night, but you can't have sex, and you can't jack off. There's sand in your eyes and probably in the crack of your ass, and then some cartoon comes along from a country where people are getting laid, and mocks your prophet. Well you know what? I'd be pretty pissed off too!

The point I am trying to make is, in a religion that is so sexually repressed, it is not surprising to find attitudes like this. You can also find the same in the Catholic faith and South park covers that nicely too, with regards to the child molestation phenonemon.

Originally posted by IAF101
reply to post by Americanist

 

How would you know one way or the other ??

Just like everything else, I guess the best you can come up with is ignorant speculation.

Deductive reasoning as it's come to be referred too. You come off like a be-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-tch, so in jail you'd take it in the rear. Had you taken it in the rear for a pro-longed stay, you'd have a hard time sitting down for any length of time. Hence, you wouldn't be in front of the computer typing a bunch of nonsense. And to make this reply count on a deeper level... You would find more insight into the nature of a woman's plight.

reply to post by Americanist


This is what happens in a Nation where women have less status than the family dog.
Women are our Mothers, Sisters, Daughters, and Grandmothers. They are our life givers, and should be exalted as Queens in the home. Without them, none of these bearded religious fundamentalist nutcases would even be here. Probably would be a better world without religion at all. I would vote for it anyway.

reply to post by autowrench



What nation are you on about? Women sure as hell aren't treated like Dogs in the UK, on the whole. Islam is no nation and does not represent the UK.

Anyone whom forces them selves upon thier partners for sex should be jailed for rape simple.

When you marry someone, you take vows to respect each other, marrying someone does not give anyone the right to take what they want, when they want it, without the consent of thier wife or husband.

Threatning to go else where, if your partner does not consent to sex,is emotional abuse. Those in here who advocate this should be ashamed of yourselves and you should hang your heads in shame.

No man or woman should be subject to this in the name of any religion, that is where religion has faults as a whole. And it is a no wonder females such as me and others are still fighting for equality in the UK.

And Finally putting this to all those whom think forcing sex upon your partner is your right, if you do not want to be jailed for rape or any other abuse. Do not marry anyone, or if you do not like the Values we hold in the UK, The get out of the country and do not let the door hit your butts on the way out.

Typical we give clerics like this benefits totalling over 30k per year, and they abuse it. Things need to change to kick exstreemists such as this out of this country, will it happen no.

reply to post by Laurauk

Threatning to go else where, if your partner does not consent to sex,is emotional abuse. Those in here who advocate this should be ashamed of yourselves and you should hang your heads in shame.

So then......what it the benefit or draw to marriage. I mean some men might just want to be married, and that is fine, but what about guys like me? See my earlier example, if someone offered me a contract for ice cream, and it said I had to only eat that ice cream, for the rest of my life, and she would only give the ice cream whenever she felt like it, and only if she were also in the mood for ice cream, and if she caught me eating ice cream anywhere else, I would lose half my stuff and my kids, there is no way I would enter such a contract.

But, i read the contract as, by entering this contract you are guaranteed all the ice cream you can handle, for the rest of your life, right at home without much effort, and the only stipulation is that you give up other ice cream, then I would enter that contract.

So, luckily my wife was offering the second contract, but I fear many women are offering the first contract, and the men don't realize it, and a few years in, they get buyer's remorse, and divorces ensue!

For an attractive, intelligent, well-adjusted, economically stable man to enter that first contract is ludicrous. Some men may have motivations for entering it, but the men that most women would want to marry, would never enter that first contract. We might weigh our options and decide the second contract is a good option, considering we will eventually get old, but all too often we get tricked into that first contract, thinking we are getting the second one!

Originally posted by Laurauk
Anyone whom forces them selves upon thier partners for sex should be jailed for rape simple.

Agreed! No two ways about it!

Originally posted by Laurauk
When you marry someone, you take vows to respect each other, marrying someone does not give anyone the right to take what they want, when they want it, without the consent of thier wife or husband.

Hehe, until they get divorced, that is!

Originally posted by Laurauk
And it is a no wonder females such as me and others are still fighting for equality in the UK.

What do you mean by this, Laura? Women have equality, in fact, women actually have rights that men do not! Take maternity leave, for example, I know they are reviewing the rules now but as it currently stands, women can take a year off (6 months on full pay) when men can only take a week at full pay. The kicker is the men then get a bad rap for working while leaving the woman at home, but let me tell you I'd love to be at home more helping the missus out with the baby, I just can't afford too!

Originally posted by Laurauk
Typical we give clerics like this benefits totalling over 30k per year, and they abuse it. Things need to change to kick exstreemists such as this out of this country, will it happen no

Actually, the rules be changing and the maximum benefits that can be claimed by a household will be limited to around £26k. I know it's still alot, but at least now they can't keep popping out kids, getting bigger houses and reaping the rewwards. It will at least be capped.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Marriage isn't just about Sex, is it? If you think it is, then maybe marriage isn't for you.

Marriage is about the whole shebang, not just guaranteed poon-tang.

reply to post by getreadyalready

Here's my take on this, as a woman who has been with the same man for 27 years.

Sex is not a tool, weapon or bargaining chip. Sex should be a natural extension of a loving relationship. Taken by force it is no longer sex, but rape. Withheld it is no longer a natural extension of love but a tool, weapon and bargaining chip.

Mutual respect is what is needed. If a man respects his wife he will not make undue demands on access to her body (undue as in "on demand"). If a woman respects her husband she will not withhold sex for trivial reasons. There is supposed to be love there as well. There will be times when a husband may wish sex that is not a good time for the woman but with love, respect and open communication it should not lead to infidelities.

A short time without sex is not going to kill either partner, but.. and this is a big but... short of health reasons there should be no extended period of time in which husband and wife should not come together. Women who withhold sex for leverage should not be married as that is not a love relationship. Men who demand sex several times a day also do not love their wives and should not be married.

In a true loving relationship none of this would be an issue. When love is not there is when problems arise and in that case the couple should not be together.

Decisions decisions...

Family suspected of electrocuting Pakistani bride
She had reportedly married a man against the wishes of her relatives...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Americanist
Deductive reasoning as it's come to be referred too. You come off like a be-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-tch, so in jail you'd take it in the rear. Had you taken it in the rear for a pro-longed stay, you'd have a hard time sitting down for any length of time. Hence, you wouldn't be in front of the computer typing a bunch of nonsense. And to make this reply count on a deeper level... You would find more insight into the nature of a woman's plight.

Again, is this the best you can bring to the discussion ? Cheap insults and baseless conjecture ?

If you can't defend your sanctimonious ravings with logic and even basic jurisprudence, I'm afraid your "deductive reasoning" is just an easy way to delude yourself.

As for a woman's "plight", that might be the opinion based on your sexual encounters but not all of us inflict similar experiences.

Not sure I understand. So hes citing a technicality or a particular definition while saying its "reprehensible"?

When contacted by The Independent, the cleric added: "In Islamic sharia, rape is adultery by force. So long as the woman is his wife, it cannot be termed as rape. It is reprehensible, but we do not call it rape."

The headline is incredibly misleading. Establishment shills working overtime on ATS. "Deny ignorance".

Corporate media: 0

Reality: too many to count.

Further down in the article, apparently not everyone agrees with this guy's definition.

Inayat Bunglawala, chairman of Muslims4UK, added: "Sheikh Sayeed's comments are woefully misguided and entirely inappropriate. Rape — whether within marriage or outside it — is an abominable act and is clearly against the law."

reply to post by stumason


I don't know, you tell me. What is marriage about? Why is it significantly different than just living together for years? If it is a religious difference, then why are we condemning the subject's religious belief? If it isn't religious, then what is marriage about? Tax relief?

Also, what are the most significant causes of divorce? I'll tell you....infidelity, and money. So, it seems sex may not be the "only" thing, but it is the most significant thing.

I am honestly curious, what do you think marriage is about, that is different than any other long-term relationship?