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U.K. cleric: Rape is impossible within marriage

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posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 01:17 AM
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Originally posted by Scarcer
reply to post by getreadyalready
 


This isn't directly to getreadyalready alone, but a general follow up on my take in the point you brought up.

Well I have to say that the rape is a concept created by modern man. For the majority of creatures on earth, rape is the primary means of fornication. The victimized animals are rarely if ever left traumatized, and go about their way of life afterwards.

Of course I would never advocate unconsentual rape, but the coming back to reality, one has to realize that the majority of the trauma is due to social conditioning and social ethics, which one sets expectations on, and once those expectations are broke, your traumatized for life. The primary of our populations children are shielded from sex, and never are learned a proper understanding of what sex and fornication means. This leads to many taking it too far for granted, for others, they become conditioned to be overly prude out of fear or shame or religious submission.

So again, unconsentual rape is a serious issue, but it's still blown out of proportion by a mentally unstable society.


So....women and men are told that it is traumatizing as children and so when they are raped as adults or children it is really just society's fault that they are hurt and not say.....

THE RAPIST MOFO.

Because, cats and dogs aren't traumatized, so shouldn't you be. Because you're nothing really but a smart rat.


edit on 2011/1/2 by Aeons because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by Aeons
 


Please can this not devolve into a "Men suck" feminist rant ? Your points maybe correct but when you try to paint an entire sex with the same brush, you are just going off on a "poor us" rant that serves no purpose.

Different culture have different understandings of what marriage means. In the west, most people don't consider marriage to be a property transaction. in the middle east to many it is a kind of property transaction. But even in the west, in some of the most developed democracies, like say Sweden, marital rape is an entirely different class of offense than rape otherwise, often incurring a much lesser charge. In middle eastern cultures, generally men don't ever ask for permission to have sex with their wives, it is seen as part of the wife's duty towards her husband and he assumes that she is fully aware of her "responsibilities" regarding the same. And most women there do recognize it as such. So, its not like its a "surprise" that martial rape is so common in the Middle Eastern cultures compared to the West.

And coming down to it, wasn't sex always something a woman "gives" and a man "receives" even in Western culture ?? And aren't brides still "given away" by her family ?? When culture itself portrays it to be some transaction, then it is little wonder that these things are so prevalent. It is not as simple as summarily blaming "men" for this and holding them solely responsible when culturally it is so portrayed. Only now, have attitudes slowly begun to change.



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 01:32 AM
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(the above response was that poster responding to my "sex is between a man and the woman he's doing it to" comment. Which btw, was a quote from Marty on "Frasier.")

All men don't suck.

Just the ones who think that they own some woman's body and soul.

And please tell me how this thread could "devolve?" The topic itself is so devolved I could hardly drag it down.
edit on 2011/1/2 by Aeons because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 02:33 AM
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Originally posted by Aeons
All men don't suck.


Your tone is akin to saying "All women aren't leeches" which is to say your bias against the male sex isn't entirely misplaced.

Originally posted by Aeons
Just the ones who think that they own some woman's body and soul.

Maybe you should actually first address the women who certainly think they "own" a man's body, soul and every cent he makes as "fair trade" for the sex they "give" .


Originally posted by Aeons
And please tell me how this thread could "devolve?" The topic itself is so devolved I could hardly drag it down.


Well if you notice almost everybody concurs that marital rape is wrong and are trying to find out the motivation and the causes behind it. Take up a side in the men vs women debate only polarizes opinions and doesn't actually inform opinions. It takes two to tango and thus you can't have one sex as the problem while the other plays the victim.



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 03:11 AM
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Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by Americanist
Here's how some of these marriages begin in the first place... It's not always agreement on "her" part.

Now give a shout out to all those overeager men dealing with low self-esteem issues.


There are quite a few cases where men are forced into marriages as well by their families or by the family of their "brides" against their will.

But of course, we won't hear anything about that will we ?


I didn't hear you say anything about a certain police chief threatening his first wife with suicide, if she didn't allow him to have a 2nd wife of his choosing. Recall this story surfacing in Pakistan?

Lets assume you're right though... Quite a few guys are involved in pre-arranged marriages, and don't want to put their junk near her butt. As a male they can take comfort in the fact it's an open enough law for them to go out and find a few more wives while using some cunning tactics against their first.


edit on 2-1-2011 by Americanist because: And to this you'll hear me say... Get real.



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 03:48 AM
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reply to post by Americanist
 


did that happen in the uk where the muslim that made this statement lives? if not then its way out of his jurisdiction. show me him supporting that girl being in prison.



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 06:00 AM
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This cleric's view seems to be that marriage means permanent consent for sex.

Even if it was, do these women actually consent to the marriages, or are they forced into it?



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 02:22 PM
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reply to post by Aeons
 


That is why is should be open, honest and upfront from the beginning. A husband and wife should not deny each other anything that is within their power to give. No matter how tired or sleepy I am, I would never deny her sex, and I expect the same from her. Also, people should not get married if they are not willing to give freely of themselves. Not every sexual encounter has to be chocolates, roses, and fireworks, sometimes it is ok to just let your partner have a go at your body, just because they ask. That is the privilege and simplicity of being in a marriage.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 06:58 AM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


Well said!

Apparently, in Sweden if your wife catch's you fondling her the morning after, she can file a "rape" case against you and you are going to have that on your record for life !!




posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:05 AM
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Rapists UNITE!



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by IAF101
reply to post by getreadyalready
 


Well said!

Apparently, in Sweden if your wife catch's you fondling her the morning after, she can file a "rape" case against you and you are going to have that on your record for life !!






Gosh, you know in the UK and North America, your husband can treat you like rat crap and call you horrible names and if you kick him in the nads for it (an obvious consequence of that behaviour) you can be charge and put in jail!

Who knew.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


You've got a warped idea of marriage and relationships.

Why should any man or woman ''use'' their unwilling partner as little more than a sex toy ?


Aside from the ethical problems of your stance, why would anyone even be in a relationship with somebody who they clearly don't respect ?



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by Sherlock Holmes
 


What does that have to do with respect?

If I am not really in the mood, but my wife is extremely horny, and she wants sex, but I don't want it, there is nothing disrespectful about fulfilling her wishes in a less than enthusiastic manner. My body will respond to her touches despite my low enthusiasm, and I am happy to lie there and let her do her thing. Not every sexual encounter has to be something to write home about. On the flipside, my wife would much rather me be very honest about my level of sexual frustration, and offer her body to me, even though she may not take much enjoyment from it at that moment. That situation is preferable to sending me out to the campus of FSU for an evening class in a sexually agitated state!

It is the utmost respect to be willing to share our bodies with one another, even when we are not necessarily in the mood ourselves, and it is the utmost respect to be open and honest about our physical urges rather than sneaking around and fulfilling them in some other way.

To take it a step further, marriage is indeed a contract, and it comes with many implied stipulations. If monogamy is a stipulation then so is willingness to provide sexual satisfaction. The contract would be unreasonable if one party expected monogamous commitment with no implied consent for sexual favors.

Nobody in the world would enter a contract that said, you can never, ever eat icecream from anywhere else in the world, but I will provide icecream at my own discretion, whenever I am so inclined, and only if I get the icecream too, but I am under no obligation to ever give you icecream, and in fact you may never get it, and if you get it somewhere else, you have violated the contract and I get half your stuff and the kids! Who would ever enter such an agreement? If there is implied monogamy, then there is also implied consent.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by Aeons
 


It would not be such muddy water if we could agree on what is and is not "rape."

Rape is not a 19 year old having sex with a 16 or 17 year old, that he has dated for several years. Rape is not a taking home an agreeable drunk girl that later gets morning after regrets. Rape is not sneaking up on a sleeping wife that might not be in the mood, but goes along with it anyway, until a divorce attorney later tells her it was actually rape.

"Rape" is forcible or violent sexual behavior in the face of obvious retorts and resistance.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by Americanist
 


I support Sharia law between moslems provided there is no breach of UK law. UK law is the law of of the land and therefore has priority over Sharia. I would say if a moslem husband rapes his moslem wife and goes before this buffon in Sharia law and the Sharia court says the drivel this man spouts then if the woman then goes to the UK legal system then Sharia should be overturned!

I cannot support rape under any circumstance.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
On the flipside, my wife would much rather me be very honest about my level of sexual frustration, and offer her body to me, even though she may not take much enjoyment from it at that moment. That situation is preferable to sending me out to the campus of FSU for an evening class in a sexually agitated state!


This is coercion and blackmail.

If you're giving her the choice between having sex with you ( whether she wants to or not ) and you cheating on her, then you leave her little option.




Originally posted by getreadyalready
It is the utmost respect to be willing to share our bodies with one another, even when we are not necessarily in the mood ourselves, and it is the utmost respect to be open and honest about our physical urges rather than sneaking around and fulfilling them in some other way.


Humans aren't wild animals.

We don't need to express our sexual urges physically with another person.

The fact that you're apparently forcing your wife - via blackmail - to engage in sexual activities with you, is despicable.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by Sherlock Holmes
 


Human beings are certainly animals.

I would say the facts disagree with you. Human beings do need to express their feelings physically with another person. It is our number one need above all other things including food and personal safety. Human beings constantly put their lives at risk in pursuit of sexual gratification. We risk our marriages, our lives, our careers, our reputations, and our very health for a few moments of gratification. "Survivial of Species" outranks all other innate instincts.

Divorce rates, crimes of passion, and rates of sexual offenses speak to the major earth shattering effect that the need to share our sexual feelings physically with another person.

Anyone that denies this basic need is setting themselves up for a lot of problems. My wife married me, with the understanding that I am upfront and honest about this very important need. She also understood upfront that things would not change for me just because we got married. She entered the marriage with that understanding, and 5 years and 2 kids later, she still loves me, and she is still sometimes surprised at my sexual energy, but she is also the happy recipient of it a large portion of the time. Those other random times where she is not quite in the mood, she still winds up enjoying herself.

So, is it coercion? Maybe it is, but I won't apologize for it, and I can't change my biological structure or abilities. I make every effort to please my wife in every way emotionally, financially, physically, and intellectually, and I expect the same from her, and I don't think it is too much to ask.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


I think people are confused by the fact this largely amounts to a culture of arranged marriages where understanding your spouse is limited to (her) age and how many farm animals the family can forgo. The harsh reality is a mind set... It's better to fornicate with a pre-teen than a backyard goat.



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 07:52 AM
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reply to post by Americanist
 


The culture and using women as chattel is a different topic. I agree with you. The culture of marrying off the daughters for some economical or status change seems extremely out of place in our modern western society, but 200 years ago it was common here as well. There have been many successful matriarchal societies throughout history, so I don't understand how women suddenly became "property" instead of equals or even leaders in the societies. I think that could make up a whole other thread, and it would be very interesting to follow the rise and fall of women's rights and leadership through history.

You are correct about the sheep and goats. I have some friends from the old USSR, and out in the countryside I've been told that a certain pig farmer became very wealthy by leasing his pigs out to military recruits that were spending months and months in the wilderness for training. the pigs were more valuable as "companions" than as pork! Apparently some of the GIs would become so attached that they would purchase the pigs and take them home after their training was done.

I'm sure the critics in this thread will latch onto this as me comparing women to pigs or goats, and strictly sexual objects, but that is not true. I believe women are at least equal, and probably superior to men when it comes to running a society, but from a strictly sexual aspect, men have an unreasonable and irrational urge to procreate and without a woman they will turn to farm animals or just about anything to satisfy their urge. A college neighbor of mine had an affinity for luke warm watermelons! So many beautiful college girls around and they kept him sexually agitated all the time with no relief and he figured out a whole bunch of odd ways to satisfy himself with fruits and vegetables!

Surely, any decent wife would rather have mediocre sex with their husband than to see him resort to farm animals or watermelons for his satisfaction?



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by Americanist


Husbands 'may be made to ask forgiveness ... That should be enough'

How do these type of people carry such weight in public affairs? Where is the moral compass? Anyone?


(visit the link for the full news article)


Because its a spy ops thats made to make musilums look bad.







 
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