Guns or No Guns?? Your views.

reply to post by butcherguy


We are not duped.

We just disagree with you.

Why do you struggle with that?

But there is no reason for the average Joe to have them.

So everyone who has been attacked, raped or murdered wouldn't have benefited from being able to pull out a gun on their attacker?


www.learnaboutguns.com...


No armed defence allowed:

Heavily Pregnant Women Raped at Gun Point

www.dailymail.co.uk...


Arm defence allowed:

Pregnant women holds armed burglar at gun point - Video

www.youtube.com...



No armed defence allowed:


72 and 78 year old beaten to death


www.thisislondon.co.uk...

Armed defence allowed:

89 year old pulls gun on burglar

www.examiner.com...< br />
No armed defence allowed:

UK: Burglary victims attacked in their own home once every 30 minutes

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Armed self defence allowed:

Crime rates down for third year, despite recession

www.msnbc.msn.com...

www.usnews.com...





[edit on 3-6-2010 by TheDarkTurnip]

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by Freeborn

 

Exactly, we are violent, we love a punch-up.... if we had guns, we'd have as many of these incidents as they do in the US, probably more.

See, HERE I believe ... Is where you are wrong in your reasoning. Humans fight , posture , do the monkey dance , and talk a lot of $*** to save face... It's like a school yard fight , It proves who's the better man , It gets out aggression w/ little to no risk of death. You and your mate will have a go , and then bystanders usually break it up before it gets ugly. If Human nature were as you described it , all of these "Punch Ups" would end up in deaths and you'd have a rash of Broken Necks and crushed skulls throughout your country. The reason that this doesn't happen is because the intent isn't to kill. If all of these people were armed I highly doubt , you'd have mini wars at the pub and football stadiums , because of the risk of death involved , that and society usually has a way of policing itself.

My background with firearms is pretty extensive , I grew up as a Cop's kid , I learned firearms safety and marksmanship at an early age , As a teen I Joined the United States Marine Corps , and after I got out in my early 20's I began a law enforcement career myself.

The reason I'm bringing up my background is twofold. I view firearms as Tools ... They aren't mythical death dealing entities , and the reason I think most of the people in the UK view them as such is because that is the way it seems they are portrayed in your media , that combined with a lack of firearms education and positive firearms experiences. Most of you didn't grow up going to the range or hunting with your dad or uncle , so you don't see firearms ownership as a positive experience. Society has many of you programmed to believe only "Nutters" own firearms. Even though many of your countrymen still own firearms for sporting purposes , are they all nutters too?

The second reason I brought up my background is it introduced me to violence and evil on a level I never knew existed. I've seen shootings and stabbings , I've dealt with rape victims and seen that look in the victims eye , all while struggling to maintain my composure and not beat the offender that did it within an inch of his life. The reason I'm relaying this to you is that evil and insanity doesn't need guns to manifest itself on the population. You guys don't really have guns over there , but you have a knife problem like no other. People are getting stabbed left and right , Should all of the cutlery in your kitchen be taken away?!? The guns are gone but the violence is still there... the criminals just picked another tool they have access to.

You can't compare your sane mind and thought pattern to a criminals. They are predators by nature , they prey on those which will offer up the least resistance and will use Violence as a way to do it. It seems that In the UK you have a population of sheep(unarmed citizens) that are preyed upon by wolves (armed criminals) and the sheepdogs (Cops) are helpless to stop them and only exist to clean up the aftermath.

Here we have firearms that are owned by law abiding citizens , Our criminals KNOW that these citizens may be armed , and usually will try to find a victim that is not , which is usually one of the people that believe that guns are evil (until they are in a situation where they wished they had one)

My Wife was anti-gun , until the economy got bad and the home invasions started popping up. Now she has access to a safe full of tools and is trained to use them. She has 2 cubs here to protect , I can go to work knowing that she has the skill set and tools to do it. She doesn't have to rely on the Police to protect her. (because they can't)

Like it's been said before , we come from two different cultures , but at the end of the day , we're all human beings that deserve the rights to life , liberty and the pursuit of happiness.... you also should have the right to defend yourself from those that would strip those rights from you.

reply to post by Equinox99
Just to keep things real.....

All of the largest and most dangerous species on Earth have been taken by hunters using pistols.

I am going to guess that you don't hunt with a pistol?

Doesn't mean that no one else does.

reply to post by KILL_DOGG


A star for you Sir.

Our cultures are just so different in this regard.

At least you recognise this.

And if you don't come from the UK then it will be very hard to understand what sort of place Cumbria is and what the people are like.
That's what makes this just so shocking and hard to understand.

If I lived in the USA I would seek to legally own guns.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by butcherguy

 

We are not duped.

We just disagree with you.

Why do you struggle with that?

I am not the one struggling.

If you woke up, you might struggle with it!

Look to your handle! FREEBORN?

How about your avatar? Can you carry a pistol like that?

No.
You are born into slavery at the hands of a fascist government and their corporate partners.
The longer you go on thinking otherwise, the happier your owners will be.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by butcherguy]

The argument of guns or no guns is really an argument between sovereign and subject.

If you are a sovereign individual you are responsible for yourself and your own safety and those who make themselves subject to you.

If you are a subject of another who is your sovereign then you depend on your superior for protection and the responsibility for your safety is on your sovereign.

Americans started out with our young Republic with individual sovereign status for each citizen which was transferred collectively at least in part to the several states.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed in essence because they are their own sovereigns and are ultimately responsible for themselves.

It has been held up in court that the police have no responsibility to arrive and help you when you call them in the USA.

I will remain armed to the teeth as will everyone I know and trust. We choose to be sovereign citizens as our founding fathers envisioned. If someone wants to remain subject to another who is their sovereign that is their right of free association in my opinion.

May your chains rest lightly on your wrists. May the heel of the state's boot on your face give you comfort that everything is under control and you are safe in big brother's police state.

I choose liberty and all of the uncertainty that self responsibility entails.

To the anti-gun crowd…

Before you push your anti-gun views on private citizens, why don’t you first push your anti-gun views on your own nation’s military?

First get your own military to give up its guns. Do you see anything wrong with that picture? Of course you do.

Nations need to protect themselves against aggressive unethical nations.

People need to protect themselves against aggressive unethical people.

Next thing you’ll want to do is ban Martial Arts schools.

As an American, I couldn't care less what the UK does in response to their current incident. Their gun laws don't affect me one way or the other. Besides, one of the most annoying things on the internet is when some foreigner starts preaching to us about our gun laws. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and try to tell you guys what to do.

On the other hand, I fully support our right to own firearms here in the US. Tens of millions do it responsibly and I see no justifiable reason to strip them of their rights on the basis of the acts of a few bad apples who won't obey the law, anyway.

Originally posted by butcherguy

I am not the one struggling.

If you woke up, you might struggle with it!

You seem to be stuggling very much with the concept that I have different opinion to you.
An opinion I have come to, myself, as a result of my life experiences, free, as far as any of us can be, from any undue pressure.

Look to your handle! FREEBORN?

You have no idea at all why I chose to call myself that, but rest assured, I am free to make my own mind up on this and many other issues.
And free to understand that other's may have just reason to disagree with me and respect that.

unfortunately not everyone is the same.

How about your avatar? Can you carry a pistol like that?

Is that your measure of a man, the ability to 'carry' a pistol?
Absolutely pathetic!

Trust me, I already know I am twice the man you could ever even aspire to be.

No.

And just how are you qualified to make this statement about me?
You know nothing about me!

I assure you, even though I am starting to get a bit long in the tooth I would be more than capable to handle you, but of course you would have your gun to prove how much of a man you are!

You are born into slavery at the hands of a fascist government and their corporate partners.
The longer you go on thinking otherwise, the happier your owners will be.

Lol.
And you aren't?

And exactly what point are you trying to prove with such an immature post?

Your empty political rhetoric is outdated and pathetic.

Resistance and Class War. you nothing about it!



[edit on 3/6/10 by Freeborn]

I know that if there are no guns in the public realm we will be seeing prison camps in our future, or mass rapes/murders in event of enemy invasion like what happened in 1944 Berlin, etc.

Guns are meant to keep the civilian-military power scale in balance, as expected by the founding fathers of the constitution.

People who want to ban guns for civilians probably have sheltered themselves from the uglier histories of our civilization, where unarmed people fall victims to armed people.

There's a member with the signature ''If you turn your guns into plow-shares you will plow for the man with the gun" or something. I think that's very true.

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by CX

 

I actually agree...I think if people want them to go shooting, hunting, clay pigeon or to a rifle/gun range and so on, then that's fine.
I know that's kind of how it is now, but you know after this, they're going to try and say they we need to just outlaw guns altogether... which is just silly.

As you said, we don't have guns at home for protection and we don't just carry them around and never did before.
It's only people who go shooting at ranges and so on who have them.

This guy was a licensed owner so no laws would have prevented it.

I'm a bit confused by what you are saying here. Maybe it's a U.S. vs U.K. thing but you said that 'we don't carry them around and never did before'.

In the U.S. that would be a completely false statement. This country has had a long standing history of carrying firearms around on your very person.

I agree with some previous posts. Guns don't kill people. People kill people WITH guns. Sure, you will have the occassional legal owner of a gun that goes over the edge. That happens because life isn't always easy for everyone. Especially in this hard times. But as was stated before, the VAST majority of shootings take place with illegal firearms by criminals who do not hold to the same societal standards as the average person does.

These are the kinds of people that if there never existed a gun in the world they would use a knife to do the same. (Or sword or bow, etc.) If none of those existed they would use rocks and sticks. There will always be those kinds of people who do not respect life.

So I agree with one of your points. They will try to use this example of a legal owner to try and take the guns away. It's not right but it's a constant fight that some of the more left leaning officials have been working towards for decades.

In the U.S. our freedom was one with firearms and it will be maintained with them. And I don't mean by infighting and such. I mean that the concept that a good chunk of the households in this country do own more than one firearm legally has to make any political hack to think twice about trying to take them away.

I say no guns. I do not promote violence, even though I have had my share in this crule confused world. Also, it is only confusing if you let Babylon train you in the way of vanity.

Back on topic I say if it is going to come down to it, bare hands and feet and whatever your whole body, whatever if your going to be a beast then, BE ONE.

ofcourse, it will never work, see when people are violent they go bigger everytime they get whooped, all I am trying to say is, why do we half to have a choice "Guns or no Guns" isn't it clear? That the evil forces are not even useing guns. . .

"I will say again evil forces are not useing primitive weapons. . .like guns."

rehab

reply to post by Freeborn
If you are trying to make me feel inferior by using the terms outdated and pathetic, good job!


I am just going to crawl away and sulk now.

You mention that I am the same as you are, a slave to fascist governments/corporate partners. Reading posts before that, one could hardly understand how you could be aware of your own predicament, let alone mine.

I am not carrying a gun at the moment, and mostly never do. I am not the person puffing my chest out, claiming to know that "I am more man than you will ever be".
Sounds like you have a massive ego, it probably just as well that you stay asleep, Big egos and firearms are a bad mix.

ETA: I didn't think the pistol in your avatar thing would be so hard to grasp, or I wouldn't have used it...

Your avatar is carrying a pistol.

Can you do that in your country? That is the point.
Not about manhood.

More like maybe you are living vicariously through your avatar.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by butcherguy]

I won't say one way or the other about my personal ownership or lack there of regarding owning a firearm or many firearms.

I do respect a persons own decision on their choice of having said items or not.

I, personally, find them fascinating, from their origins to their current manifestations. Firearms are rather interesting creations of human ingenuity.

But whether or not someone wishes to own or not own, I feel is up to them, and their personal views.

I have seen some of the most gentle people I know carry a sidearm, I have also seen some of the most horrific crimes committed with said firearms. I do believe the gun, itself, is not responsible for the actions of the people who have them.

I recall once reading an article that said the average household contains over 400 some odd lethal objects. So if the intent is there, the device by which someone will kill another is erroneous.

I, however, think everyone, despite where you lice, should have some training on firearms. It would help dispel some of the more non-idealistic type arguments.

Peace and Safety to you all, and until such a time as we don't have to worry about it, may your aim be true.

Originally posted by ReHaBzWuRdZ
Back on topic I say if it is going to come down to it, bare hands and feet and whatever your whole body, whatever if your going to be a beast then, BE ONE.

There's a major flaw in that argument. What about the elderly? I don't think 80 year old grandma is going to be breaking out any kung fu moves any time soon. What about a person in a wheelchair or some other physical disability? Do they not have the right to self defense as well?

Physical hand-to-hand combat is not an option for many.

if you cant defend it then its not really yours now is it? whats it going to be like if the power grid goes down for a week or two? or have any sort of riot..storm...shortage..
and the looting / lawlessness comes to you -and your defenseless loved ones? if crazy killer guy rolled up my drive he'd be shot dead end of story. i live in phx az. -we have home invasions and every other sort of senseless mayhem under the sun...you bet
old grampa keeps a shotgun handy. might have a pistol tucked away as well...only a fool puts his personal safety in the hands of strangers. and every fool is a potential victim.

reply to post by blupblup


My Plan:

I think every American should at the age of 16 start receiving 2 years of training in the correct and safe use of a firearm. At age 18, they are given a custom built government issued firearm with a single registered bullet in the chamber.

The idea is this: anything you do with this bullet to another citizen age 18 or older is legal so long as you are not doing so in the commission of a secondary crime (rape, robbery, extortion, etc). Admittedly, there would be a rather massive kill-off in the first couple years as idiots go buckwild, but here's the thing:

If you use your bullet in anything other than self-defense, that's it. You're done. No more free bullets for you. Those used in proven self-defense would be replaced.

This would radically reduce gun violence in this country as everyone would be packing and trained in the proper use of the weapon. It would also cut down on any number of lousy behavior. Knowing that everyone has carte blanche to kill one another if you pi$$ them off enough to use their bullet, will lead to a general increase in courtesy and mutual respect.

There would also be rules about the mentally impaired, insane etc. Those who are unfit to receive guns would also be off limits for shooting.

reply to post by butcherguy


It's popular apparently to project inadequacy onto others in the form of accusations of "pissing contests" and juvenile phallic size comparisons.

I havent heard anyone head down that road since perhaps the second grade but up here on the forums children, adults and the geriatric often accuse others of embarking on "pissing contests."

Perhaps some merit would be had to the accusation if I were to wave a thing around in anothers face and shout "look at that, look how cool it is, look how cool it makes me, where's yours" but what reasonable human being would do such a thing or even entertain that particular outlook on life in general?

To assume the "pissing contest" is an extension of insecurity. To openly accuse one of embarking on the "pissing contest" without evidence of the behavior is an admission of defeat.

reply to post by Essan


That is why when WW2 broke out your citizens weren't
armed to protect themselves!
Had to have countries like the U.S. to arm your population.
Then,when the war was over,had all the guns dumped into
the ocean.
When the next war comes,who will rearm your citizens?