Guns or No Guns?? Your views.

Looking at things from multiple standpoints, I'd say you're asking the wrong question.

The real question is, how do we change the world view that it's okay to kill.

We know it's morally wrong, people still manage to do it anyway.

Take away the reasons people kill, and you fix the problem.

Doing that however, ending poverty, religious hate, resource wars, power, etc etc is monumentally daunting.

But not beyond reach.

reply to post by RobertAntonWeishaupt


16 is way too late. By that time the impression that "ghetto trash" violence is "cool" or "acceptable" has already set in.

Most fathers have their kids shooting at least a pellet gun by 8 or 9.

I absolutely agree that education and experience will go a long way to reducing inappropriate behavior with guns.

This national campaign waged over the last 40 or so years to demonize guns, remove the rifle teams from schools and make them into some mystical source of petty criminal power hasnt exactly worked well to reduce criminal use of firearms. If anything it has exacerbated the problem 100 fold.

If we can agree that education and experience make for better drivers and knowledge makes for safer sexual behaviors why is the answer to improper use of firearms always to hit with a stick and shout NO NO NO?

Originally posted by Essan
reply to post by blupblup

 

It's the pistol shooting teams that are affected by this (ridiculous IMO) legislation that forbids legitimate ownership of pistols for sport.

Rifle shooting teams aren't affected, any more than clay pigeon shooters, stalkers or grouse shooters are - all of whom own and use guns in Britain.

As an aside, gun ownership is quite high in the Highlands and AFAIK there's still a gun shop in Fort William high street.

Although that's still strange It's at least more clear and I see what is meant now... rather than just "all guns are banned and shooting teams can't even shoot in the UK" that at least tells me that it's just pistols.

That is pretty odd I suppose... but it's maybe a case of not being above the law? And not wanting to allow any leeway, although I'm sure most people wouldn't mind the Pistol Shooting team actually practising here right?

reply to post by thisguyrighthere
I am not certain that I am following you completely. I am interested in your view as an uninvolved third party.

Did I start pissing, or did I accuse someone of pissing?
If I did wrong here, I will gladly accept and apologize.

Originally posted by Mr Objectivity

Take away the reasons people kill, and you fix the problem.

We're HUMANS , It's in our nature. It would be great if we lived in some Utopian society where everyone was an outstanding citizen and we all vibrated at a higher frequency focusing on Love and Light... But we don't, we live on EARTH , and at the end of the day we're pretty much talking monkeys , and If you are afraid to use Overwhelming Violence of Action towards another talking monkey using violence against you... You will be food , end of story.

reply to post by butcherguy


Freeborn seemed to accuse you of "pissing." I made an attempt to explain the phenomenon of accusing one of "pissing" when there is no ground to back up such an accusation.

Sorry if there was any confusion. I also apologize to Freeborn if he was not in fact accusing you, and what seemed like all gun owners, of being chest-thumping, cock measuring pissers.

reply to post by butcherguy


No you were "Taking the Piss"... that's the problem...lol

reply to post by thisguyrighthere
Thank you for the clarification.

I wasn't confused at all it seems. I am aware that I was approaching the line that I don't like to, so I played nice.

I agree with you on the manhood extension mentality that is pervasive in these sort of threads.

edit, disregard`

[edit on 3-6-2010 by Solofront]

Guns are awesome!

The emasculated men who have to justify that they are still men by not owning a gun is hilarious. No wait, it's sad. I guess they can keep drawing pictures of guns to make them feel better.

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
If all of these people were armed I highly doubt , you'd have mini wars at the pub and football stadiums , because of the risk of death involved , that and society usually has a way of policing itself.

Well you don't know our culture very well then mate.... believe me, If most people carried guns on a daily basis, then Friday/sat nights in towns would just be a bloodbath.

When we have fights and groups of guys clash, there is a brawl and it's only when the police arrive that it is sorted out.... if people had guns, most of those involved would be shot and either injured or dead before the police arrive.

I view firearms as Tools ... They aren't mythical death dealing entities , and the reason I think most of the people in the UK view them as such is because that is the way it seems they are portrayed in your media , that combined with a lack of firearms education and positive firearms experiences. Most of you didn't grow up going to the range or hunting with your dad or uncle , so you don't see firearms ownership as a positive experience.

You see guns as a deterrent, we same them as the cause... we're not afraid and we don't think they're mythical death dealing entities.... we know that people kill people, not guns.... but if more people have more guns... then more people die.... It really is quite simple and straightforward logic.

And I guess depending on age and location, but your "most of you didn't go hunting/shooting with dad/uncle" is not true either.
My dad used to go rabbiting and used to shoot a lot years ago.... many people around my area do.... there are many farms around here, It's very rural and I would imagine many people had some sort of "positive" gun experience, as you call it.
Not saying this would be the case for inner city London, but neither would it be if you lived in down-town Manhattan right?

And if people go shooting.... clay pigeon/skeet, target range, game shooting, or whatever, then fair enough.... that's great and if they like it and it's positive... then fine, many people do in this country... many.... but that is drastically different from every Tom, Dick and Harry around town owning and carrying a gun.

The two things are not related and even people who grew up with guns and shooting/hunting all their lives, don't and wouldn't want to, carry guns in the UK.... seriously.... they just don't.

Society has many of you programmed to believe only "Nutters" own firearms. Even though many of your countrymen still own firearms for sporting purposes , are they all nutters too?

Not at all.... as I said above, we have a very thriving shooting community in the UK and in rural areas it is quite the norm..... you're misconstruing our argument really.

It's not that anyone who owns or wants a gun is a nutter.... neither do we think all gun owners are nutters, far from it... but nobody has the need or inclination to carry a gun to go to the shops.... nobody wants a "Gun Culture" as you guys have there.... where everyone from postman to little old ladies going to bingo are packing heat..... it's actually quite disturbing, to us, that you guys are like that.... and it's not the guns themselves, it's the amount of these types of incidents that you guys have and the fact that many gangs and many people have little or no regard for life and are happy to brandish a piece to sort out their troubles.

It seems that In the UK you have a population of sheep(unarmed citizens) that are preyed upon by wolves (armed criminals) and the sheepdogs (Cops) are helpless to stop them and only exist to clean up the aftermath.

Even in a nation of gun owners like yours, you have many of these incidents and the fact that people carry guns seems to do very little to stop it?
So your argument has no weight.

We do have armed police.... and when we get one of these type of incidents happens, say every 10-15 years, they go and deal with it.
After 9/11 there were many armed police all over.... airports, train stations and so on.
Most police forces have armed response units, it's just not necessary for every beat officer to carry a gun.
Many more people would be needlessly shot and/or killed by police, as is the case in the US.

Like it's been said before , we come from two different cultures , but at the end of the day , we're all human beings that deserve the rights to life , liberty and the pursuit of happiness.... you also should have the right to defend yourself from those that would strip those rights from you.

Of course we do.... and most of us would happily kill people who broke into our homes and threatened our lives.
The country was outraged when Tony Martin went to jail, the farmer who shot and killed a burglar who broke into his house... most backed him and said he was well within his rights to do so.

Now because of this, we didn't all rush out and buy guns, which would have been the case in the US.... we just said, well that was a farmer and its such a rare occurrence, in fact an almost isolated case here in the UK.... and people called for his release.

Believe me.... there aren't many homes in the UK without big kitchen knives and baseball bats and so on.... we are not without protection.
And because not many people, even criminals, carry guns... we don't need them as protection.... doesn't mean we are without protection though.


[edit on 3/6/10 by blupblup]

reply to post by blupblup

On one side, people know the simple truth is that guns breed violence.... not solve it.

Guns are inanimate objects, they are incapable of breeding anything.

People breed violence and if they didn't have guns as their weapon of choice they would simply use something else. Guns are not the problem, people are.

reply to post by blupblup

"When we have fights and groups of guys clash, there is a brawl and it's only when the police arrive that it is sorted out.... if people had guns, most of those involved would be shout and either injured or dead before the police arrive."

So... is that a bad thing? /s

Seriously, I disagree, if everyone knew everyone else had guns, no one would ever throw the first punch - unless they had a death wish.

Peace

Originally posted by chise61

Guns are inanimate objects, they are incapable of breeding anything.

People breed violence and if they didn't have guns as their weapon of choice they would simply use something else. Guns are not the problem, people are.

I know that and have stated it several times, so try and not quote out of context.

As I have said, many times now.... I have had a knife pulled on me... and dealt with it...

If a madman was walking around stabbing people, it would not last long as people would just take him down....

a Gun is completely different..... there are no second chances, no going back.... guns don't kill people, I know and have said this myself.... but people with guns do kill people... and much easier than people without guns.

Guns breed violence...it's a fact...whether it be peoples mentality around guns... the need to carry one, the way they are worshipped and revered over there... whatever..... they really do.

Originally posted by blupblup
Guns breed violence...it's a fact...whether it be peoples mentality around guns...

I strongly disagree with that. There are plenty of areas of the US, for example, with very high rates of gun ownership and very low rates of violent crime. I know because I happen to live in one of those areas.

Originally posted by FearNoEvil

So... is that a bad thing? /s

Seriously, I disagree, if everyone knew everyone else had guns, no one would ever throw the first punch - unless they had a death wish.

Peace

The old adage, "An armed society is a polite society".

And people would be more polite every day with their fellow man if they suspected that he was armed.

Originally posted by FearNoEvil
Seriously, I disagree, if everyone knew everyone else had guns, no one would ever throw the first punch - unless they had a death wish.

I disagree. The fights would still happen, but they would rarely escalate to deadly force. The funny thing is, people generally don't want to go to prison. In general, people just want to kick the other guy's ass, they don't want to kill him.

Originally posted by FearNoEvil
[

So... is that a bad thing? /s

Seriously, I disagree, if everyone knew everyone else had guns, no one would ever throw the first punch - unless they had a death wish.
Peace

Of course it's a bad thing???
Jesus....THAT is the difference between our nations right there...
You guys would be lost without your guns... you may have to actually fight and defend yourselves.

We are happy to have a scrap and get on with it..... a fight is just that, a fight? Why should someone have to die or be threatened with death just for having a fight?
The gun is your answer for all of life's ills huh?

People get drink, they get rowdy, they fight.... that's life in the majority of civilised countries in the world...throw GUNS into the mix and you're seriously asking for trouble.

It's just impossible for you to understand... You're brought up thinking a gun is the solution to all your problems, with a gun nobody can mess with you and you're far safer in your home and on the street with a gun..... the reality is you're about 4 times as likely to be killed or injured by a gun if you carry one, than you are if you don't.

So... whatever man.

Enjoy the guns

Originally posted by p51mustang
if you cant defend it then its not really yours now is it? whats it going to be like if the power grid goes down for a week or two? or have any sort of riot..storm...shortage..
and the looting / lawlessness comes to you -and your defenseless loved ones? if crazy killer guy rolled up my drive he'd be shot dead end of story. i live in phx az. -we have home invasions and every other sort of senseless mayhem under the sun...you bet
old grampa keeps a shotgun handy. might have a pistol tucked away as well...only a fool puts his personal safety in the hands of strangers. and every fool is a potential victim.

Well for us in the UK, frankly it's not likely to happen.

And storms have left power cuts for several days in rural areas in the past - during which not one single violent crime has ever occurred.

Would you buy a aqualung in case your town was ever flooded under 200ft of water?

reply to post by blupblup


Realistically there is no "going back" with knives or blunt objects either. You can't assault somebody and go on as though it never happened.

A knife in the leg is just as fatal as a bullet in the leg and a knife in the heart is just as fatal as a bullet in the heart. In some cases the knife would actually be more dangerous due to the nature of the wound.

Pretending that one implement is somehow morally superior over the other is absurd. Assault is assault regardless of closed fist, bat, motor vehicle, knife or gun.

And no, guns do not breed violence. They do not breed anything. They are hunks of aluminum or steel that just sit there. If they breed violence than you must conclude the easy acquisition of rocks on the road also breeds violence. Each time you make the statement you sound a bit more foolish.