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All Roads Lead to Rome

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posted on May, 18 2010 @ 03:25 PM
Why Christianity appealed to Constantine:

Christians, when they deprecated the wrath of Diocletian, or solicited
the favor of Constantine, could allege, with truth and confidence, that
they held the principle of passive obedience, and that, in the space
of three centuries, their conduct had always been conformable to their
principles. They might add, that the throne of the emperors would be
established on a fixed and permanent basis, if all their subjects,
embracing the Christian doctrine, should learn to suffer and to obey.

Why Christians liked the emperor:

In the beginning of the fourth century, the Christians still
bore a very inadequate proportion to the inhabitants of the empire; but
among a degenerate people, who viewed the change of masters with the
indifference of slaves, the spirit and union of a religious party
might assist the popular leader
, to whose service, from a principle of
conscience, they had devoted their lives and fortunes.

Then, with such an alliance having been made, there was a rapid spread of Christianity within the government and the military:

The example
of his father had instructed Constantine to esteem and to reward the
merit of the Christians; and in the distribution of public offices,
he had the advantage of strengthening his government, by the choice
of ministers or generals
, in whose fidelity he could repose a just and
unreserved confidence. By the influence of these dignified missionaries,
the proselytes of the new faith must have multiplied in the court and
army; the Barbarians of Germany, who filled the ranks of the legions,
were of a careless temper, which acquiesced without resistance in the
religion of their commander; and when they passed the Alps, it may
fairly be presumed, that a great number of the soldiers had already
consecrated their swords to the service of Christ and of Constantine.

Of course, it must be said that under the symbols of Christanity, Constantine rose to become the sole ruler of the empire. He became invincible on the battle field as his legions, bolstered by the support of the church and, by evidence, also the One and Only God. Constantine loved it:

Personal interest is often the standard of our belief, as well as of
our practice; and the same motives of temporal advantage which might
influence the public conduct and professions of Constantine, would
insensibly dispose his mind to embrace a religion so propitious to his
fame and fortunes
. His vanity was gratified by the flattering assurance,
that he had been chosen by Heaven to reign over the earth; success had
justified his divine title to the throne, and that title was founded
on the truth of the Christian revelation.

It was a marraige made in heaven..
Too bad the emperor didn't really buy into the faith itself:

As he gradually advanced in the knowledge of truth, he proportionally
declined in the practice of virtue; and the same year of his reign in
which he convened the council of Nice, was polluted by the execution,
or rather murder, of his eldest son.

No... Constantine didn't care about the religion at all. He USED it to further his own ends, more concerned with control and security both in his court and the emopire at large. From the ranks of the Catholic church he found those who would lead the legions, carry out justice by applying the law and also find thousands of spies to watch over the Roman citizenry.

Consider the sudden explosion of converts:

As the lower ranks of society
are governed by imitation, the conversion of those who possessed
any eminence of birth, of power, or of riches, was soon followed by
dependent multitudes. [74] The salvation of the common people was
purchased at an easy rate, if it be true that, in one year, twelve
thousand men were baptized at Rome, besides a proportionable number
of women and children, and that a white garment, with twenty pieces
of gold, had been promised by the emperor to every convert

And, oh, how quickly the fire of the faith spread to the far reaches of the empire:

War and commerce had spread the knowledge of the gospel beyond the
confines of the Roman provinces; and the Barbarians, who had disdained
as humble and proscribed sect, soon learned to esteem a religion which
had been so lately embraced by the greatest monarch, and the most
civilized nation, of the globe. [76] The Goths and Germans, who enlisted
under the standard of Rome, revered the cross which glittered at the
head of the legions, and their fierce countrymen received at the same
time the lessons of faith and of humanity.

But, there was a little fly in that ointment:

When Constantine embraced the faith
of the Christians, he seemed to contract a perpetual alliance with
a distinct and independent society; and the privileges granted or
confirmed by that emperor, or by his successors, were accepted, not
as the precarious favors of the court, but as the just and inalienable
rights of the ecclesiastical order.

Let's call the above the 'Old School' seperation of church and state.

That 'Old School wasn't so small either:

The Catholic church was administered by the spiritual and legal
jurisdiction of eighteen hundred bishops; [86] of whom one thousand were
seated in the Greek, and eight hundred in the Latin, provinces of the

So... who was the true leader of this new empire? Was it the emperor or the church itself? Their power was immense:

The bishop, or some distinguished presbyter, to whom he
cautiously delegated the powers of preaching, harangued, without the
danger of interruption or reply, a submissive multitude, whose minds had
been prepared and subdued by the awful ceremonies of religion. Such was
the strict subordination of the Catholic church, that the same concerted
sounds might issue at once from a hundred pulpits of Italy or Egypt...

It was during this time that the various Christians also fought among themselves for supreme power. Constantine backed the Orthodox Church:

After a preamble filled with
passion and reproach, Constantine absolutely prohibits the assemblies of the Heretics, and confiscates their public property to the use either of the revenue or of the Catholic church.
The sects against whom the Imperial severity was directed, appear to have been the adherents of Paul of Samosata; the Montanists of Phrygia, who maintained an enthusiastic succession of prophecy; the Novatians, who sternly rejected the temporal efficacy of repentance; the Marcionites and Valentinians,under whose leading banners the various Gnostics of Asia and Egypt had insensibly rallied; and perhaps the Manichaeans, who had recently imported from Persia a more artful composition of Oriental and Christian theology.

So, there you have Gibbon's view on how Constantine used the church to his own benefit. The only downside was the fact of his own humanity... he could not rise above the station of the lowest cleric and this needed to be addressed. Kings and emperors needed their own divinity so that they may be equal, at least, to the power of the church. That's a struggle which would see much bloodshed over a millenium.

[edit on 18/5/10 by masqua]

posted on May, 18 2010 @ 03:39 PM
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

i agree with you that they continue to use everything they have against us as they have for centuries.they remind me of the mythical beast the hydra ,2 many heads that continue to grow exponentially more and more. it is the elusive beast that never dies ,it just crawls back into the pit for another 1000 years. for only the shadow knows its true face.
but for how many centuries have WE THE PEOPLE been used by them as their whipping curs. what is their motto-beat them drive them like cattle tell them all is well lie cheat deceive ,and if they argue or stand up for them selves kill them . as it is not a part of their agenda.
OUR BONDAGE OR SLAVERY NEVER DID END -they promised us a life where all were equal ,equally bound to pay them for herding us like cattle .keeping us in debt so we could not worry about how they would give it 2 us again.watching them start wars then sitting back and letting us send our children to die for them in the name of GOD [he whom was love not war] and for country[Afghanistan Iraq Iran are not a part of your country so what in the hell are you doing over there other than protecting an underground oil field that is bigger than all of Canada USA and the middle east combined.] while they and their children were so far removed from it in their little ivory towers and castles. and this list is endless to keep it short.
if you think that as people of the so called free world you have rights forget it ,you don`t . the only right you have left is to do as you are told ,any other thought or deed or action which is contrary to what they order you to do and be makes you and ENEMY OF THE STATE.
we of the free world speak so highly of our freedoms and rights to it and yet we allowed our governments to bring in so many immigrants that they outnumber us in the vote.remember our governments gave them a better life at a working wage that was so far below the poverty level here that it was not funny.but it was so much more than they made in let us say India in to 60`s and 70`s .$90.00 take home verses $5 to $6 in India oh what a fortune they were making here in this the so called promised land . i to worked for minimum wage back then and a pair of levi`s set me back $39.95 a pair plus tax. i know because my parents would not spend this amount for a pair of pants i got my first pair out of my first pay did not leave me much.
i watched my government offer $25,000.00 to anyone who wanted to start a business here in Canada.the catch was that if you were CANADIAN OR NATIVE CANADIAN you need not apply.IMMIGRANTS ONLY. and all the unions screamed that they took our jobs away from us -how so- no self respecting Canadian could live on these wages and we knew it ,and yet the immigrants could considering that 2 families or more lived together in an apartment because they could not afford the rent alone let alone why is it we the freemen so hate the IMMIGRANTS put the blame where it belongs on the mans head and shoulders for playing all of us against one another.
so what is it that they fear the most -CHRIST -he is the power not them and they know that his word is law- theirs is he would control more power over people than all of them combined . so who are the true anti-Christs . it says that he will destroy the great harlot churches of the world ,he will destroy the great governments of the world and he would destroy the great millitary`s of the world .
those who led us all astray are listed above ,they could not save their own asses let alone anyone elses., as we all are dying to suit them and their games .
i have noticed one thing about you traveller you are not only very well versed you are also very well read ,it is nice to see such intelligence here . so can we teach them to sing together or are they as lost as they appear to be. GREAT THREAD MY FRIEND.

posted on May, 18 2010 @ 06:02 PM
reply to post by picrat

Schrödinger’s Dog, whose particular genius tends to outshine all others here on ATS sent me another article today that he felt might be pertinent to our thread here on Rome.

It was an article written for another blog on the history of debt for the last 5,000 years.

Written by Alexander Rose, it was an interesting compilation on how debt, coinage (money) and markets all were more or less by products of the military conquest of people and nations, by Kings.

Interestingly enough the whole concept of debt is apparently born out of the concept of slavery.

Hence the term slaves to debt.

Yet in days of yore, when you were vanquished in war, and the King who commanded that army chose to spare your life, you literally owed your life to that king. You were most often taken into slavery, and what ever other debts you might have had to people or businesses previously were negated as a result.

Because the Kings controlled the Silver and Gold mines, it didn’t make much sense for them to issue coins with their faces on just to take them back in taxes. Yet this was deemed preferable to the Ten Commandments where the King had first right over your first fruits, and crops, and goods of the season.

Money was a disembodied abstract therefore, so instead of having to give up half your grain, or half your sheep, you could give up something that wasn’t quite so personal to you, even though you might have to sell half your grain or half your sheep to do so.

Most people simply bartered their products and services with one another, often establishing credit between one another, I will give you a beer today, and tomorrow, and the next day, and the day after, until your hops are fully grown and then you can give so many of them to me, so I have more beer to give you!

In a world where most people though like Homer Simpson, this would have been a grand idea! Beeeeerrrrrr!

Yet to conquest these people and expand a nation, you needed soldiers, and you needed something compact to pay soldiers with. Hence the need for coinage, something small and compact that soldiers could travel with and trade for goods and services to sustain their own needs.

These traveling armies and kings are in part the largest factor in the creation of markets. They would pop up alongside army camps and royal courts, to trade goods and services for coinage, in gold or silver.

How linked are military campaigns is coinage? Trading States not engaged in warfare hardly ever minted currency or accepted it! They bartered. Militant States seeking to expand their borders though did.

So the soldiers who spared your life would then typically fix a price for you as a human being and sell you off into slavery as a byproduct of that war.

You literally owed your life to the people who spared it, and were forever in their debt.

In the early days of Rome being a free citizen, more or less meant you couldn’t be taxed by the state. You owed the King or the State nothing.

Yet as time went on the Kings gradually decided everyone owed the State something, for the roads, for the language, for the infrastructure and the culture that was created by the generations before you.

The concept of debt to the state was born in this way, and the Kings linked with divine rights in this way, as they administered the gifts of the previous generation, thought to be linked with God who created all.

The divine right of the State and the Divine right of Kings was born, with the concept that you owe a debt to the state just for the privilege of being born, and allowed to live in the state.

The State owns you, and in fact under the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution you are a citizen of the state, not a free citizen who lives in the state, but a citizen of the state. The State owns you, and you owe a debt to the State.

How concepts of debt and currency have been managed over history is quite fascinating, but in the middle ages, most of all debt, and all currency were actually administered by the church.

The Christian Church, it is highly unlikely that the Church ever really has stopped administering it.

So once again a smart Roman would say…

Nothing has such power to broaden the mind as the ability to investigate systematically and truly all that comes under thy observation in life.
Marcus Aurelius

This is where we are failing, and become so easy to enslave, and in part because of this too...

We are too much accustomed to attribute to a single cause that which is the product of several, and the majority of our controversies come from that.
Marcus Aurelius

This is what divide and conquer is all about, is that propensity to find but one factor or villian to blame most of our woes upon, and then to argue whether that is the real factor or villian.

We don't look very well at all the factors, and in part because we are taught to believe some things are sacrosanct and above reproach, like the Government, like the Church, like Religion etc., etc.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
Marcus Aurelius

Yet most of us simply want to be on the side of the majority, and the majority never sees itself as part of the problem, and that is insane.

My mother use to chide me constantly as a child, to mind my manners in neighbors homes and graciously accept their hospitality even if the fare wasn't to my liking by reminding me of the old addage "When in Rome do as the Romans do".

The problem is in large part, we live in Rome but in fact don't do as the Romans do.

We have lost our ability to honestly and objectively observe, ascertain, and use our minds, to identify our problems and seek real strategies to overcome them.

The secret of all victory lies in the organization of the non-obvious.
Marcus Aurelius

This is basically what the whole premise of this thread is about, is how the non-obvious could be organized and orchestrated to defeat us.

[edit on 18/5/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

posted on May, 18 2010 @ 06:15 PM
reply to post by masqua

In many ways what Constantine did was a form of Proscription that Lucius Cornelius Sulla first pioneered in 82 B.C.E. to rid the Roman State of it's internal enemies, those being the patricians who opposed Sulla, and to replenish the treasury by confiscating their wealth and property, as they were murdered or sent into exile.

Constantine just gave a new name to his political enemies, Heretic to define their defiance to his rule, and his rule through mandating a religious authority to be on the same par with and synonymous with the state.

Yet even as he rid Rome of those opposed to his rule, and replenished it's treasury in this fashion, he shrewdly set himself up beyond reproach by actually making his concept of God the ultimate culprit and perpetrator for this.

You see, even though I murdered your father, and took your home and all your gold, it really wasn't for my benefit, or because I wanted to, it was because God wanted me to and demanded it.

So please don't be mad at me.

And so the reign of terror that lasts to this day began!

posted on May, 18 2010 @ 07:47 PM
this great reign of terror as you described it still goes on to this day -you don`t say;and i was always told that this was the way of the world . the blind mice following the piper`s sound.gabrials trumpet...
we were all told growing up how great and grand life was .1 your born into this garden -take care of it not.2 grow up into adult hood ,follow your church ,believe in the government,join the army and see the world.if you survive come home get married raise a family have kids buy your little picketed fence home grow old and die in peace -WHAT A NIGHTMARE.
I only wish parents would not teach this crap to the kids let alone Santa clause greed through the children s love of toys. the Easter bunny who brings goodies to good children hell shoot it and put it in the stew pot for supper.
and we are all told to believe in this crap LIAR LIAR LIAR LIARS.
and we wonder why children rebel ,especially after we destroy all of these fantasies that we told them were real ,we all lied to our kids to suit whom.we all spend so much trying to fulfill their wishes and in the end we all go farther into DEBT ,who are we joking by pulling the wool over our own eyes all the time believing that it will get better.
things need to change for the better but this will never happen all because we the people continue to play their game their way and by their rules .change they don`t want or need as it would upset their proverbial apple cart and they may end up as beggars on the street ,after their false little house of cards topples.
what would happen if we all said that dirtiest word of all to them-NO-
no- we will no go to war
no- we will not pay taxes
no- we will not work
no- we will not vote for you
no- we will not follow you

most importantly if every one and all small business did it where would they be , BROKE LIKE THE WORKING MAN NOW IS.
funny thing is the people own about 85 percent of the vote in any nation so why do we continue to elect their lackeys into power -probably because there is no honest politician in the world,so it leaves us 2 to 4 choices as to which group of liars thieves and fools do we vote for.their private agenda does not include any of the common men that build these nations with the sweat and hard labor of our backs.
we just saw the banks cripple the banking system and we had to bail them out,GROSS MISMANAGEMENT ,and they are still free to do it again now that they stuck the people one more time.
and what did we the people world wide get out of this not a damn thing other than more taxes ,which by the way the rich and corporations get to write off everything labor ,materials ,gas ,hydro and so on. do any of you get to write these things off not likely we have to pay and pay to keep these court jesters in their ivory castles away from the reality that we need to face every day.
the system is flawed and broken and they are now trying to patch it at our expense again . Ron white said it best .you can`t fix stupid because stupid is just plain stupid .

posted on May, 18 2010 @ 08:46 PM
reply to post by picrat

The Banking Crisis/Scandal was not mismanagement; it was designed precisely to do what it did, and to then loot the treasury.

The last act of any government is too loot the treasury.

What happened with the banks was done first with the Savings and Loans in the mid to late eighties. That was the test run, of how to bust out financial institutions, by leveraging them to the hilt, and over extending their assets, and then having the government come in to clean it all up by charging it off to the taxpayers and further indebting them.

This was done under George Bush, Sr.’s direction, and the larger and much fatter banks themselves were then targeted with the same scheme under George Bush Jr. and his administration.

Like father, like son, the apple does not fall very far from the tree.

This was all done, to funnel the money of the working class to the patricians, by tapping out their 401k’s and investment portfolios, and robbing them of the equity in their homes, and their home’s themselves.

Yet it also serves the more important purpose of pushing the nation too financial default, and placing it in receivership of the International Court of the Hague, which is an invention of the United Nations, which is an invention of Rome.

All this is being done with and by exploiting the notions of debt. Even though the money itself is just paper, and attached to nothing of value, the concept of indebtedness itself is what they are using, to convince the people, that because of some form of twisted morality, that we the people have failed in our obligations to maintain our debts in a proper and virtuous way.

Banking is a huge part of how the New World Order will be implemented, and why I posted the link to the article above regarding the history of banking, is it displays, how the Kings have manipulated the concept of debt, in various guises, over the millennia, in order to manipulate the people into an obligated sense and notion of bondage.

None of the things that are driving world events right now have happened by accident, they have all happened by design, to arrive at the precise outcome that they have.

Once again let us think as a good Roman would.

Everything that happens happens as it should, and if you observe carefully, you will find this to be so.
Marcus Aurelius

Let us think as very good Roman would.

If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it.
Julius Caesar

While a brilliant Roman would say...

Before beginning, plan carefully.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

This was in fact all planned very carefully.

But let us also consider...

Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.
Marcus Aurelius

We may at last in fact have Rome finally exposing itself so that it can be confronted and finally defeated.

He only employs his passion who can make no use of his reason.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Anger itself will not help us.

You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.
Marcus Aurelius

They in fact would prefer we did not have power over our minds, by manipulating us to react with our emotions instead of reason.

If you have no confidence in self, you are twice defeated in the race of life. With confidence, you have won even before you have started.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

In fact I have great confidence Rome can be defeated, other wise I would not have posted this thread.

Isn't this more fun than quoting the Bible????

posted on May, 18 2010 @ 09:52 PM

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by Hemisphere

These posers might not know or even consider to what extent the world is controlled or out of their control but I also don't think they care. They're in it for themselves and the short term. We see constant evidence of sexual trysts, payola, favors and more unveiled by the MSM.

You are right, there are people who are just going along with whatever the program throws at them and they are told to support publicly. Some even succumb to the desires of the flesh or greed and are set before us as examples of how they too belong to the system. They are the cannon fodder if you will. The monster that the masses have been longing to punish for their own ills in life. It's quite a show.

That's exactly it, it's a show. And we all have those desires, temptations and "sins" as they have been described. Of course the Roman Catholic Church gave those to us, courtesy of Pope Gregory I. We've come to know them as the Seven Deadly Sins. And I was considering how exactly did that come about? I knew it had to relate to control. Control of the masses of course not the priesthood. The Popes perfected if not invented the most egregious sins.

And so they delineated them, pride, envy, anger, sloth, greed, gluttony, and lust. Maybe it's just me but I could argue that each of these "sins" could be described differently and looked at in an entirely positive manner. For an individual trying to survive and perhaps even thrive in the world these would be positive attributes. In this way all of civilization was led to believe that human desires and survival strategies were in some way evil. Rome wanted us all dependent. It was fine for the Roman court to be greedy and lustful but as for the plebes? Well, that slothful lot was needed to keep the mining operation running. And so any thought that allows for true independence is deemed sinful.

posted on May, 18 2010 @ 11:07 PM
reply to post by Hemisphere

That's exactly it, it's a show. And we all have those desires, temptations and "sins" as they have been described. Of course the Roman Catholic Church gave those to us, courtesy of Pope Gregory I. We've come to know them as the Seven Deadly Sins. And I was considering how exactly did that come about? I knew it had to relate to control. Control of the masses of course not the priesthood. The Popes perfected if not invented the most egregious sins.

The thing with these seven deadly sins is, they are deadly. They are deadly to someone who cannot put things in their proper perspectives. Did the Bible or the Church give use this list so that they can, behind the scenes, engage in them and laugh at us for telling us not to? Not by a long shot.

You see, when you consider that the people who, were and even now, are attending Churches, they are doing so in a way to learn how to control themselves. The sins that are laid out for us are very bad when taken to extremes and in some instances when engaged in for a brief moment. The thing that is lacking when they tell us about these deadly sins is often times an explanation that we are just human and we will be confronted with them throughout our lives.

Some Churches I've been to have explained that those who engage in this or that will go to hell. Then they offer no explanation as to why people sometimes do fall into them. They don't tell people that these things are a part of being human and that being human, we sometimes do bad things that we regret. Often times when people cannot get over why they have failed themselves so miserably and seek solace from the pulpit, they are confronted with only damnation and sink further into their guilt. Which only leads to worse things.

It comes down to forgiving yourself and realizing within yourself that you will learn from these mistakes and move on. Does God save someone and wait for them to mess up so He can damn them to hell? Absolutely not, but there are Churches out there that will tell you that. Maybe not in them words, but they will lay the guilt on you for sure and make sure you're as confused as ever about it. Do all Churches do that? No. Some Churches I've been to will tell you that God has saved you for a reason and nothing you can do will change that. From what I've learned through my research into the scriptures, that is the case.

That doesn't give the believer the right or absolution to go and do any thing that he or she feels tickles their fancy at any given moment though. There are things that are bad and they are bad for a reason. The guilty conscious can be a life saver at times and it should be heeded for what it is and we should be thankful for it. It is ourselves telling us that we shouldn't do this or that because of the consequences. Self mastery is tough but not impossible. I believe Proto said in a post that mastering yourself is a 24/7 job and I agree with him one hundred percent.

You have to seriously look deep within yourself and see what it is that you would like to manifest in this world. What is it that you would like to be able to accomplish or create? Does it serve only yourself or does it serve others and thereby everyone? More often than not you will find that what is needed to give the ultimate satisfaction is helping and serving others. Which is really what we ought to be striving for.

If you have done something bad and it's really eating at you and the preacher has just laid more guilt on you, then it's really hard to get around the guilt and find out what it is you really want. You have to step back and forgive yourself if you are not a believer in God. If you are a believer in God then realize that God knew you were going to sin in the first place and already has forgiven you. So you have to now, again, forgive yourself and move on and find what it is that you want to manifest in this world.

For someone in power, like the people you mentioned in your previous post, they are merely intoxicated with their own position in this world. They have lost sight of who and what they are and decided to entertain themselves for a moment with the pleasures of this world and it bit them. Yes, the deadly sins are very deadly to someone in their positions. Like I said, they are the cannon fodder for us. They have been given their positions, very low positions in the grand scheme of things, and they receive their perks for being put in the public spotlight. Therein lies the problem for them, they forgot their roles that they are to play for Rome and have to be put in their places.

For someone like you and I, who are not scrutinized by the public, we can maybe get away with something here and there but is that what we want to manifest in this world? Should we disregard our conscious and indulge ourselves? We cannot and will not defeat Rome in this way and we will do nothing for advancing our cause. You have to look deeply into yourself and come face to face with what you really want. Then take that realization into this realm. So for someone to look at the list of seven deadly sins and try to avoid them is futile. We will face them for sure and they are real. You cannot beat yourself up for failing, but you must realize what it is you really want.

posted on May, 19 2010 @ 01:19 AM
reply to post by jackflap

I do agree with the aspect of self-mastery within the Roman matrix. Without this matrix the seven sins would likely not exist. At least not in the current form or number. Just my opinion. Accepting my place within the Roman reality, anger is not a sin by simply experiencing it although they prefer I think that. It becomes a sin by my acting upon it and they prefer that does not happen. (A bloodless coup.) And so the experience of feeling anger remains a sin.

Anger is a part of survival instincts and needs to be recognized as such. Not looked upon as a short-coming. When it is viewed as a character flaw we then lose it as an instinctual warning. I conclude that the Church and Rome would rather have us wrestle with our instincts than with them, figuratively of course. The seven sins are based on instincts and needs. They would prefer that I am void of instincts and needy. In short, a willing slave.

[edit on 19-5-2010 by Hemisphere]

posted on May, 19 2010 @ 10:31 AM
reply to post by jackflap

Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Any man is liable to err, only a fool persists in error.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Cicero who lived in the time of Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar and Marc Anthony was considered the preeminent and quintessential orator, lawyer, politician and philosopher.

He leaned more towards moderation than gluttony and espoused that in his philosophies and his politics.

He favored the Republic yet not the violence of the Civil Wars that raged in Rome during his lifetime, and while he initially took part in the Second Civil War after Caesar’s return from Gaul when he initially seized the city, he did not militarily participate in the Third Civil War after Caesar granted him amnesty along with the other surviving patricians from the Second Civil War.

He remained an outspoken critic though of Anthony, Augustus and Lepidus as he advocated for a return of the Republic and an end to tyrannical rule.

Eventually Anthony had him assassinated in a wave of proscription for his advocacy against imperial rule.

For how many things, which for our own sake we should never do, do we perform for the sake of our friends.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

One of the peculiarities when it comes to ‘sin’ is we most often are bade to commit egregious acts for the State.

Of course we would be less inclined to do that, if we had a stronger moral compass, and would exercise our freewill in more purposeful ways, if in fact we did better at mastering our selves.

The difference between the church’s teachings in regards to the ‘seven deadly sins’ and true self mastery, is that the Church teaches you should do this for God instead of yourself.

Much the way the State teaches us, we should sin individually when it benefits the State and the State has ordered us to do so, but not do these things for ourselves.

Both the Church and the State, which for all intents and purposes are one in the same, are much like alcoholics anonymous in which they both preach codependency, and for you to believe that it is not possible to master yourself or make the right decisions without the aide of the Church or State to guide you.

In other words, look to them, and not to yourself to be your guide. This of course leaves the individual open to gross manipulations by both the State and the Church, as the average person seeks absolution alternately from both, yet often faced with having to do something on behalf of one, that is frowned upon by the other.

This of course leads to having plenty to feel guilty about, as people alternately try to please the State and gain absolution from it, and then please the Church and gain absolution from it.

They aren’t in fact teaching you to Master yourself, they are teaching you to be enslaved to them.

Great is the power of habit. It teaches us to bear fatigue and to despise wounds and pain.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

So in essence what the institutions of Church and State have in fact done is to make a habit out of committing certain egregious acts in consistent ways and times, predicated upon things that serve the Church and the State.

Because they are instilled in us as habit, on behalf of the Church and the State we tend to feel less guilt or no guilt when committing these ‘sins’ on their behalf, when bade to, yet when if we commit them individually for our own glory, then it typically leads to self doubt, guilt and pain.

If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Yet because of this habitual system of moral Talmudic law, we are often in fact ashamed to say or do what we are not ashamed to think.

This is the power of the moral Talmudic laws, and how they were psychologically designed to affect and inflict.

In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

This is pretty key here to understanding our Master’s thinking, which is in fact rather sound, when you look at what causes this conclusion.

If the majority of us are susceptible to subtle manipulation designed to play upon our emotions, that causes us to react in controlled and predictable ways, often with no real grasp of what it is we are reacting to, and forming a majority opinion in that process, thus enslaved to incorrect or incomplete thinking, allowing the majority to rule, would in fact be self defeating to the ultimate goals of the manipulators, and those who could not be manipulated.

In so far as the mind is stronger than the body, so are the ills contracted by the mind more severe than those contracted by the body.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

When it comes to divide and conquer warfare, dividing the minds of the people, is the key and most important step.
Ultimately the absolution they are offered for their deadly sins will in fact likely be more deadly to others and themselves, via the path to redemption the State or the Church puts them on to gain absolution.

The State or the Church will extol you to pay that ‘debt’ in ways that benefit the ever expanding power of the Church and the State. This will typically and almost always be to the detriment of someone else’s freedom and way of life.

It is not by muscle, speed, or physical dexterity that great things are achieved, but by reflection, force of character, and judgment.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Think about this, as the Church and the State sits in judgment of you, forcing you to reflect, and to look for that uncertainty in your mind caused by the State or Church judging you, and then through that creating a process in which they forge your character to suit the aims of the Church and the State.

Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

This though is the opposite of what Church and State preaches.

Nothing is so unbelievable that oratory cannot make it acceptable.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Which is what Priests and Politicians and Attorneys are for.

Getting you to believe what otherwise would be unbelievable.

Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Fire and brimstone any one?

Our character is not so much the product of race and heredity as of those circumstances by which nature forms our habits, by which we are nurtured and live.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Which is why almost from the moment of inception and conception, the institutions of Church and State begin and continue that process of education and controlling our environment through laws to create in us the thinking and the actions they desire.

If we are flawed and imperfect, to the point of tragedy, it is only because we have been taught to be flawed and imperfect to the point of tragedy.

The authority of those who teach is often an obstacle to those who want to learn.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Truer words could not be spoken as it is the authority of Church and State Teachers, who most often withhold and impede the things many of us would like to learn and know.

How easy is it to exploit the concept of sin and manipulte people through it?

The greatest pleasures are only narrowly separated from disgust.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Pretty darn easy in fact.

[edit on 19/5/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

posted on May, 19 2010 @ 01:19 PM
Remember this image that I posted a few pages back? Well this is what is explained about it on the Club of Rome page. Notice the end of 2010 includes a major final report.

Systems Integration

As work proceeds on the five clusters, a parallel effort will focus on developing a better conceptual and practical understanding of the world systems within which they are linked and embedded. This will help to understand the linkages between trends, issues and actions and to identify the drivers of global change. The Programme will in this way recognize the immense complexity of world affairs.

A dedicated research network will focus on the issue of systems integration, including systems thinking and systems linkages and systems dynamics modelling. These networks will be supported by the Secretariat and accessed through the Club's website.

In late 2010 it is planned that the concluding "International Forum of the Club of Rome" will be held to integrate the final outputs of the expert meetings, of the research networks and of the related activities by all the elements of the Club and its partner organizations, leading to coherent conclusions and recommendations and to a major Final Report.

posted on May, 19 2010 @ 01:40 PM
reply to post by jackflap

We are rapidly loosing our window of opportunity, but our window of opportunity does exist.

They will spend a few years reviewing that data and formulating and implementing the strategies they deem most effective in creating system integration across the board (the control grid).

America remains the key domino in getting it to fall.

Our next major clues will come in the form of the platform of the political personality they select to win the U.S. Presidency in 2012.

They know that there is a tremendous amount of opposition to Obama, and like Obama was originally designed to defuse the mistrust against Bush, and make the majority of Ameircans feel safe again, the next President, will be designed to defuse the mistrust rampant against Obama and make the majority of Americans feel safe again.

Like Obama that President will go for the most important initiatives right out of the starting gate and try to push them through while the trust of the majority is evident and supportive for those initiatives, as usual not because they are great ideas, but because it is their majority candidate who is implementing them, and they picked the majority candidate, and want to see that choice validated, in that winner, then using the power, that they feel they, the majority gave him.

As long as Americans remain convinced that the political process as it is, can eventually rescue them, they can alternate back and forth, in this style, getting their agenda through, one or two major issues at a time, then letting that politician come to ruin, and then replacing him in the next election with someone who appears on the surface to be the opposite.

I am not 4 more years of George W. Bush, I am not 4 more years of Barrack Obama, and temporarily gain back the people's trust in that fashion, to ram one or two more initiatives through.

This is likely how they will do it.

Nothing is more unreliable than the populace, nothing more obscure than human intentions, nothing more deceptive than the whole electoral system.
Marcus Tullius Cicero

posted on May, 19 2010 @ 05:26 PM
reply to post by Hemisphere

Oh how I thought of our discussion when I came across this article. I am going to post a portion of it for you of course but keep in mind, this guy is cannon fodder for us. He lost sight of what he was to be doing for Rome and let his position that they gave him intoxicate himself into god-like status.

Christian pro-family congressman Rep. Mark Souder (R-IN) recently resigned over an affair with a part-time employee saying, "to serve has been a blessing and a responsibility given from God. I wish I could have been a better example. I sinned against God, my wife and my family by having a mutual relationship with a part-time member of my staff." Oddly absent was any recognition of the betrayal of his nation and of his constituency - those who actually voted for him and entrusted him with a position of responsibility. Souder has referred to gay marriage as an "assault on American values" and was committed to preventing gay and lesbian Americans from enjoying equal rights and protections in marriage, all the while disregarding his own marriage. This is a classic example of Christian GOP hypocrisy: publicly professing dedication to "traditional" family values while screwing around on the side. Nothing unusual here; move along. Although Souder probably deserves extra points for having made a video - with his lover - praising his own advocacy of abstinence. (No, really) The Bible-thumping Souder has said his political beliefs are inseparable from his religious beliefs; "the closer to the clearness of the Bible, the less ability I should have to compromise. for example ...on abortion, there's really not much room to compromise." Likewise, Souder believes the US should unconditionally defend Israel because "... they're God's chosen people..." He hasn't explained why God can't simply defend his own people, but even Mark Souder's piety has limits. When offered the chance to fight for his own country in a military uniform, Souder refused to go on religious grounds. On the hypocrisy meter, this one ranks right up there with the recent scandal involving Rev. Dr. George Rekers, the anti-gay activist of "" infamy. Both scandals underscore something deeply troubling: using one's religious faith to manipulate and control others without having to observe the same moral standards yourself - and then using faith as a cover for one's own failings.

Tsk, tsk. He had an agenda to promote for Rome and was caught with his pants down.

posted on May, 19 2010 @ 05:56 PM
reply to post by jackflap

That though is the beauty of a highly interpretable work like the Holy Bible, it’s vague enough to twist into almost any position and then offers the chance to then turn around and say, I should be forgiven, after all Jesus forgave us all of our sins!

While there is some great esoteric wisdom in the Bible, the reality is it goes on to interpret more or less in vague ways how to use it.

One of the things I have tried to display in a round about way, through the quotes of wise philosophers in some of my other posts, is that wisdom in fact stands alone.

It doesn’t really need a vague interpretation of it, or vague and conflicting ways to employ or deploy it, it speaks for itself.

One of the other things that I am hoping some people might better realize that when people start quoting scripture from the bible, invariably along with their interpretation of it, they are in fact trying to evoke and invoke the authority of God for them selves.

I would much rather like to hear and consider what Jackflap has to say, or Hemisphere has to say, or Masqua has to say or On the Edge has to say, as being a genuine reflection of how they think or feel, and well if it just happens to be similar to some wisdom from the Bible, that’s great, just as great as any other source of wisdom.

Yet clearly as this Congressman has displayed, when most people start quoting scripture they are trying to impose the authority of God to get people to go along with what their goals and agendas are, and not to question the wisdom of those goals and agendas.

This is really what the Divine Right of Kings is all about; Jackflap didn’t say that, Hemisphere didn’t say that Masqua didn’t say that On the Edge didn’t say that, the Queen of England didn’t say that, but GOD SAID IT!

In reality no, God didn’t say it, the person said it, while trying to evoke and invoke the authority of God to justify their actions and agenda and keep both from being questioned.

This is what the Divine Right of Kings is about.

posted on May, 19 2010 @ 06:39 PM
yep they all leed to rome.. with that road on the out skirts that form a big circle around rome.. lol theres only two directions you can go from there. out or in

posted on May, 19 2010 @ 07:10 PM

Originally posted by kbeet
yep they all leed to rome.. with that road on the out skirts that form a big circle around rome.. lol theres only two directions you can go from there. out or in

The Roman Road Network by the way, the finest the world had ever seen was all designed to speed troops out to conquest, and loot and slaves back to Rome.

Some of these original roads still exist to this day, they were that well built.

Interestingly enough our own Interstate Highway System was legislated by President Eisenhower similarly as a means for the American Military to rapidly mobilize and deploy its assets.

He patterned this off the German Autobahn which he saw a great military advantage in, and the German Autobahn was patterned off of the Italian Auto strata, which was patterned off the Roman Road Network.

On a side note the Interstate Highways created by Eisenhower, were meant as a replacement to County and State Roads, and because the Interstates are Interstates, this enabled Congress to start using the Interstate Commerce Clause of the Constitution to regulate more and more sweeping laws, and impose them on the states.

In Rome, even the Roads are weapons, and tools of control, and profit for the State.

All roads do literally lead to Rome.

posted on May, 19 2010 @ 09:32 PM
I ran across this YouTube Video on another thread, and I really found it topical to one of the more important points I have been trying to illustrate regarding self fulfilling prophecy.

It's a very empowering audio visual presentation.

posted on May, 20 2010 @ 12:06 AM
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

This definitely illustrates your point regarding self fulfilling prophecy, amazing video, be careful what think you may just get it.

posted on May, 20 2010 @ 12:14 AM
reply to post by Aquarius1

Thank you Aquarius1, I thought it was a truly amazingly well presented video that illustrates just how self fulfilling prophecy works.

I think at some point, the people who really do either want to see prophecy come true, especially the bad ones, or accept them as fate that they can't do anything about, do need to be honest with them selves in regards to just how wise and good that thinking is.

The world really will change, when common sense, becomes common again.

Thanks for posting my friend.

posted on May, 20 2010 @ 12:17 AM
reply to post by jackflap

That's a classic Jack. It has all the elements. Then again I suspect they all do. I think this. This guy due to his being in mental lock-step with Biblical morality was unable to address his human desires in an open way with his wife. When finally presented with the opportunity for a Biblical temptation in his life the "flesh was weak". The flesh isn't weak, it's just that desire is desire. Desire is only sinful and hurtful when it is given that designation. And who exactly decided it was sinful and when? The Church, Bible, Rome did 2000 years ago. A few gazillion things have changed but not that and why? It suits the controllers for us to be endlessly wrestling with the inevitable little crap that they noticed infests all lives instead of them. We live our lives swallowing elephants and choking on gnats.

Should any life be defined by a momentary desire fulfilled? I think not but that's the prison we've accepted. How many lives were redefined by this one man's momentary desire being met? Without his office he likely never would have been in position to have that desire met. That seems a pity, that seems so wrong. I don't think he set out to hurt his wife and family and undermine his position but that's the trap we've accepted. I surely don't have all the answers but neither did the "burning bush".

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